I guess the judge thought the Portie was the better dog. Not the end of the world.

 

Yeah, I kind of don't get it either. But I accept my bias, and my willingness to strongly defend my personal opinions

 

sometimes a breeder judge will be more criticle of their own breed being shown to them................

not saying this is why Fifi went gr2..i have not seen the group judging yet..

as said though.on this day.under this judge..the porti won.

 

When I found out the judge was a dobie breeder my heart kind of sank this afternoon. I just had a sneaking suspicion that he would be tougher on Fifi because of it.

 

Well if you think about it, he would have been damned either way.
What I'm wondering is what dobe it would have taken for him to stick his neck out to put it first or if it even mattered.

I've only seen that judges breeding in photos, Mistel, tho never the dogs in person so don't know if he has a type or not.

Anyone wanna touch that one? ha

 

I didn't know he was a dobe breeder. In NA? Does he have a kennel name?

 

I have seen two? Of the puppies from his last litter in person, and I would say Fifi is not really his "type" based on them.

I agree it's kind of a sticky situation for him to be in.


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I've seen the one and think you're dead on. Though I don't know many who would appreciate the "type" of the one I've seen.


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Once you take Fifi out I have to say I thought that Rott was spectacular and should have won over the PWD I wasn't happy about any of the group wins except the Affen. I thought the Springer should have taken the sporting group. Whatever...I mostly feel this way about Westminster when all is said and done. One year, don't remember which one a little sheltie was in BIS and he showed his heart out, there was NO question he should have won but he didn't. I don't remember who did but I cried foul long and loud! LOL AND, if I may go on, another friggin Old English Sheepdog?!! Seriously!! Give me a break. I liked several other herding dogs way above that one. I'm editing to add often it seems in the herding group the judge has bred and handled GSD, same in this case. The GSD dog in the ring was so titled they couldn't list them all plus she was a bit more put together in the hocks than so many, didn't have that crippled walk. I don't think she was the best in that group but nice and the judge didn't look twice at her. Who knows what type he used to breed, maybe better, maybe worse but I think a breeder who judges their breed is very, very tough on that dog, it is a standard they know in their sleep.

 

I'm interested to see the judges type...could someone post his kennel name? Or PM? My google-fu is broken today

Thanks for the link!
I'd have to agree with Dobewankanobi, not my ”type”.

 

Mistel Dobermans Seven Generatio

 

I can't claim to know anything about American show lines, but I am not a fan of those heads at all. Fifi has a much nicer head IMO.

 

I was not impressed with the judging. But then again I am not a fan of Bob. I will not be giving him my entries not that I was ever impressed with him in the past. Most of us KNEW he was going to not put her up but we were hoping he still might. The posts on Facebook were insane on him and his judging or lack of.

 

THIS exactly. it's been years since I've shown a Dobe to him and I was not impressed. I think my dog did well at the specialty so it wasn't sour grapes He has judged Vizslas several times and most people who's opinions I turst won't enter under him.

I wonder if people who were considering hiring him still have the same opinion. I get 'type' quite well, however, what kind of type does she NOT meet? She's so dang cdlose to the standard. I found it apalling myself. yes it's "just" a dog show to many , not to those in the ring. Long hard work, lots of money, time, energy and we all know when we agree to play sometimes crap happens, I feel so bad for Fifi's team. They deserved the recognition period.

I wanted to add that I am NOT a PWD expert, but Fifi's record to me shows she's a much better representative than the PWD (assuming all things consistent and the PWD has been showing as much, etc.) But with how many BIS now 70, 80?...really, the other dog was better?

 

If you look up the last time Mr. Vandiver judged Fifi she did get best of breed.
He does get good Judging assignments he judged BOB at the Dobe nationals in Topeka, judged juniors at westminister two? Yrs ago I think. And I think he is on the board for the dpca judging committee.

Cindi Huckfeldt had a red bitch special before Brody that was his dog/breeding, was in the top 20 that year.

When the Porto came up, my husband said something stupid like that always wins. I told him he jinx Fifi.


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I said to my husband that many of the Dobes on DT were more beautiful than the one who won the class. Of course she was lovely, I just didn't think she had the most beautiful face ever.

I love all dogs but that little black dog that won overall, well, IMO, the German wire haired Pointer was the nicest.
And the hound was lovely.

Also really liked the American Staff Terr. So handsome.

 

Rumor is he was BOO'D at the show.

 

Well if that is the case thats very childish. The way i see it is she was not his type and having seeing dogs he has judged in the past Fifi was not. He has that right when judging one of the biggest shows in the world.. He is there to judge the dogs closest to thier breed standard And last night he thought the porty was the closest period. Grp 2 is NOTHING to shake your head over ..
If he Really wanted to be a jerk he would have dumped her all the way.
Fifi did a great job and made many proud to say they were dobe people ;-)
Congrats to everyone involved with her career they did fantastic.

 

I understand judging at Westminster to about the point I understand judging at any other all-breed show...little. Because I simply am not educated on the vast majority of standards and the ones I do know a little something about I will not pretend to be any kind of authority on. LOL

I assume if a dog of one breed is selected over others it's because that dog is a better representative of their breed than the other dogs are of their own.

Fifi is a magnificent Dobe, IMO. It gives me goosebumps to watch her show. I know there is no such thing as a perfect to standard dog of any breed but I have a damn hard time seeing the imperfections of Fifi. However...it's not out of the realm of possibilities that there are other even nicer dogs of various other breeds out there that she goes up against. Just because they're not my favorite doesn't make them unworthy of beating her.

 

I assume if a dog of one breed is selected over others it's because that dog is a better representative of their breed than the other dogs are of their own.

Well said and absolutely agree.

However, IMO, I find it hard to believe that a man who is as involved with Dobes as Vandiver is knows the Porti standard better than the Dobe standard. In which case, he would be well aware that Fifi is a great representative of the breed standard.

Alas...that was a damn nice Porti.

 

I think it was a difficult choice due to him being a breeder judge. If he would have chosen Fifi people would have screamed "foul" because dobermans are his breed. Now he is getting beat up on by the doberman community for not putting up what some think is "the best doberman of all time". I don't know. I liked the Boxer and the Giant Schnauzer. Fifi is nice but I think there's a LOT of groupthink going on.

 

The Boxer and Giant Schnauzer were our favorites too...next to the Dobe.
I also think it must be a tough job judging all those beautiful dogs.
Not that I know anything about the show world...I just enjoy watching

 

Wanted to add, I know nothing about showing dogs.

I love all dogs, but simply thought some at Westm were nicer than others.

Who got booed?

 

The judge got boo'd after not putting up FiFi.

 

I thought that judges were supposed to judge according to each breed standard and choose the one dog who best upheld its own standard. If this is the case, would he have to set aside his own bias when judging a Doberman and choose a dog that was up to standard and not try to choose his "type" of doberman favorite? I know the breed standard but Id be hard pressed to look at a dobe and say it fit the standard perfectly, and while I happen to adore Fifi and think she is probably one of the most perfect dobes out there, maybe he thought a different dog upheld its standard better? Am I disappointed she didnt win, heck yeah, do I know enough to say the judge flubbed? heck no lol I think you could put the same group of dogs in with several different judges nd get several different results, to be honest, it all depends on the judge and what he is looking at.

 

I still like the Rott in the working group, it was a very, very nice Rott. I liked the Springer in the sporting group. I thought the rough collie was a beautiful representation of the breed and that was a really nice GSD too. Personally I also liked the cattledog, nice balanced dog but they aren't showy.

 

I guess I don't understand what the big deal is and why everyone is freaking out over Fifi not winning. (Not just on here but mainly on Facebook.) I loved the Porti and told my friend that I thought he should win. They are both beautiful. Fifi isn't perfect, neither is the Porti. The judge liked some of the qualities of Matisse better than the qualities of Fifi.

It doesn't make him a bad judge. And I don't think he did it just because he's a doberman breeder. Group 2 at Westminster is AMAZING. Everyone acts like she was spit on and didn't even make the cut. One working dog in the show of all shows beat her. He obviously liked her. I feel like if Matisse was shown free stacking like Fifi with an insane arched necked everyone would ooo and ahh over him, but that's not how the breed is shown.

 

I so agree with you Dobelove!! DT is pretty tame to some of the posts and emails I have seen since last night. Talk about going over board, it's like world is going to end for some people. She has twice now place in the groups at Westminster, a feat that most dogs will never even come close to. I think some people also fixate a little too much on the showmanship versus the innate virtues of the dog. It's unfortunate because breeds like the Foxhound, are not supposed to have that look, but are overlooked because they don't at times.

 

he chose the dog that best represented its standard........ to him, that day, in that ring.

and i say he did a damn good job of it.

Congrats again to All!

i have not enjoyed a westminster like that for some time.

Way to go Exhibitors and Judges!

 

I also want to add I love, love, love that Affen so I'm happy with the end result anyhow.

 

Sorry, BenVera, but the Peke that won last year certainly moved better than the GSD, and looked to have more stamina, too. The Peke was barely panting after gaiting, while the GSD looked like he had just run a marathon. The GSD was also tripping over its own feet when it wasn't trotting.

 

Oh God, don't get me started on NA GSD lines.

I'd like to shave down a Peke and get a good look at their conformation. I really have no idea what's under all that fur.

 

How could you have any dog that has won 'Best of Breed' two years running not win the category unless there was another working dog that was far superior? Had no idea the judge was a Dobe breeder, and you'd think that would immediately be seen as a conflict of interest? When my son was competing in forensics tournaments in high school and they needed a guest/parent judge as a last-minute fill-in, that judge wasn't even allowed to sit in on, let alone judge their child's performance, so you'd think a show as prestigious as Westminster would be sure to avoid even the appearance of any bias either way. How hard would it be to not allow individuals to judge any group they had a personal affiliation with?

Fifi was robbed!

 

This is in no way similar to a parent judging their child. This would be like my mom not being able to judge your child in his forensics tournament because she has a son too. All judges have affiliations with someone or some breed. You can't avoid that.

 

To build off of Dobelove, Rosemary, and MaryAndDobe's responses...

Here is the requirments as set forth by the AKC for becoming a breed judge: http://classic.akc.org/pdfs/rjl003.pdf

In order to get the experience needed to become a judge, you need to be involved in the sport, which basically means you are breeding and/or showing. It's how you learn. Most people start out by becoming approved to judge their breed of choice as that is the breed they are most knowledgeable about. Some of our Breeder Judges (Doberman breeders, who become Judges) are some of the best Judges out there; as they truly know and understand the standard better than others who don't have the years of experience with the breed.

Becoming a judge isn't easy and there are many people who never progress beyond judging their own breed or a select few. I would rather a judge choose to officiate over only the breeds they feel they really know, then trying to amass as many breeds as possible (which helps get more assignments).