Good question Kim

Since Lexx is my first dog, maybe this wasn't the BEST list, but I think I still did pretty well:

I saw Cardio test for both dogs from within 6 months before the breeding
VWD elisa tests ( clear for mom, carrier for dad)
OFA rated hips and elbows ( good or excellent, on both joints, both parents)
eye testing i think only mom had it done
and i really don't remember about thyroid..

Lexx has had prelims on his hips, hocks and stifles and all of them look great, plus he is VwD Clear by elisa

 

Just curious why your breeder chose to use the elisa test over vetgen?

 

zeus had no testing, as before i joined this forum i didnt even know anything about it !!! i have checked his pedigree papers and one parent is vwd clear othe not tested.
missy was not ours from a puppy but we have her pedigree papers, they state about the same as zeus one parent vwd clear one not tested !!

they are both healty and happy dogs, but i was uneducated about testing before this forum !!

 

I am getting a puppy sometime in the summer. The health tests that have been done are: Cardio, Hips, eyes, thyroid and vWD both parents are clear. These health tests have been done on both the parents, all the tests have been passed. Its important for me (and I assume anyone else) to purchase my puppy from healthy (mind and body) breeding stock.

 

My first dog's sire and dam had nothing.. but he was BYB.
Aubrey's sire and dam had the whole deal.. hips, elbows, CERF, cardiac ultrasound, vWD clear, MSU thyroid normal on the dog, and low on the bitch.
When Valar, the dam died, her heart was necropsied by a board certified cardiologist and found to be clear of cardiomyopathy. The breeder sent a letter confirming this to everyone who had one of Valar's puppies.

Link to Valar's page.. she was an extrodinary bitch and I loved her too.

Cara Doberman Pinschers: Valar
They are missing some of her titles! She was a Sch I UD.

Sire was Silas, but the Destiny website is long gone.

Aubrey herself is vWD clear by parentage, hips good, elbows normal, thyroid normal (in 2003) cardiac ultrasound normal like 5 months ago, CERF, she has one retinal fold in her left eye. Not sure what caused it.

Reggie's sire and dam have had less testing.. Sire is vWD carrier, hips good, elbows normal. That was the last time I looked. Dam is vWD carrier, hips excellent. I do not know thyroid or CERF.

Reggie is vWD carrier. That's all I know for now. I will adhere to the gold standard for health testing though, and do liver panels as well because of some known liver problems coming from great grandsire. I have been able to get information on the dam's side of the pedigree as far as deaths.. but the sire's side I can't find out much about the South American dogs.

I have done a ton of research in Aubrey's pedigree. Dam died of mammary cancer, granddam died of mammary cancer (maternal) Sire died of a cancerous mass in the abdomen, grandsire (paternal) died of testicular cancer that spread to the bone. We all know what Victor (akela the vindicator) died of.. I have this all written down somewhere. Ebo v Groot Maat died of cardio. He's back there a couple generations. I actually went so far as to contact Allison Kollenburg to find out more about the European side of Aubrey's pedigree. I wanted to know everything because she was going to be bred. (That's a whole 'nother story)

The PH's sires/dams are tested too.. Hips, elbows, thyroid and cerf. Just an aside.

 

"Silas".... "Destiny's Man On A Mission" died of sudden death DCM, as did many of his siblings.... despite having been tested routinely. Yes, it was later age onset DCM but, not so for all of his siblings. Just some info. to pass along for anyone interested. That doesn't take away from his accomplishments, (which were many.) He was an awesome dog with many talents (more than I can say for what's being bred these days on the whole.) I still remember the last time I saw him in action... I thought, this is what a dobe is supposed to be.

 

On the litter I have due next week the testing is as follows:
Cardio - Hunter has a full work up last fall, Gemma had an echo early February, both normal
Hips - Both are OFA Good
Thyroid - Hunter had done at same time as cardio testing, normal, Gemma had hers done one month prior to breeding, also normal. I do all my dogs once a year, T3 & T4 levels
Gemma also had blood work checking liver ^ kidney functions in February, all normal.
vWd -One parent is Clear, one is Carrier.
I have bred Carrier X Carrier once in the past, and had to buy all 10 Vetgen tests to go home with each puppy.
There are no cases of wobblers in eitherr history TO THE BST OF MY KNOWLEDGE.

I try my best to make sure both parents are healthy, with longevity behind them. I like to be able to sleep at night.

 

My youngest came from parents that had the majority of their health testing done.

Sire: "Gio"
Hips:HD 1 (done in Europe so that he'd be eligible for the Korung)
vWD: Clear
Thyroid: Normal
Elbows: Normal
CERF: Normal
Echo: Normal (I think the most recent one was done in December 07)

Dam: "Zeta"
Hips: Good
Elbows: Normal
vWD: Carrier
Thyroid: Normal
Cardio: hadn't been done yet. Echo will be done next month for the first time.

So far, Ava has been tested for vWD (Carrier), CERF (Normal) & Thyroid (Normal). She'll have her first Echo done next month, and her hips done after I get back from the UDC Nationals. She has annual full panel blood tests done.

My plan is to alternate echoes and holters, so that she's tested every 6 months. We own a holter monitor, and our rescue group will be bringing in Dr. Morris every November to do a cardiac clinic.

 

:nocom:

oxc

 

i hope people in india bring such tests as necessary before registering puppies

 

I will say this. I am an major advocate of full up-to-date health testing of all dobermans (pets and breeding animals) PERIOD. My newest puppygirl, Mariah's, parents were fully health tested and in date (I have copies of all of the reports). I wouldn't have it any other way.

Tracy, Drago, and Mariah.

 

None that I know of

 

I am curious - how much health testing has really been done?
For those of you that have bought puppies recently, how much health testing has been done - how much are you really expecting?
(for those of you that bred litters, you are welcome to share here too if you would like).

We always tell people what should be done, but I wonder how much people actually compromise in the end when it comes to their puppies.

I am also curious - if a breeder has a chance at producing affected dogs, are the breeders testing these dogs before they leave or do the owners test them at a later date?






I'll start -
cardiac - I have copies of the cardiac testing on both of Berlin's parents, done the month before breeding. .
hips - Their hips (and elbows) are both in the OFA database
thyroid - I have copies of the thyroid testing on both dogs done the month before breeding.
eyes (CERF) - Gus's CERF is in the database, Katie's is not - she saw an ophthalmologist separately
vWD - both dogs are clear.

I'm not entirely sure how productive this thread actually is? Other than to further divide members of the forum. Some of which are "experienced" versus those who may not be fully informed? What is the point? The majority of the health testing being done doesn't guarantee against disease or disorder anyway, (with the exception of vWD.) My apologies but, I fail to see the relevance. What is done, is done. Good or bad. People made choices based on their preference at the time, compromise or not. I'm glad you sought out a breeder that emphasizes health. However, that alone is not a guarantee that your pup will not end up with HD, thyroid issues, eye diseases, or cardiac problems later on, (God forbid.) As a vet, you are fully aware that genetics is a guessing game on the best of days.... especially as it pertains to dobermans.

Regards,
VB

 

I'm not entirely sure how productive this thread actually is?

Speaking for myself, I find it to be interesting, and am also pleasantly surprised to see how many people have bought puppies from fully health tested parents. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

 

I do agree that it is a crap shoot no matter where/how much testing you do when it comes to cardio. I have first hand knowledge of this.....

I just found out my girl Cheers' sire has died of cardio at age 5 yrs, although grandparents are 10 and 13 yrs old and still alive. He was owned by someone who does testing, owned a holter monitor, etc and does not breed very often. He was a fantastic dog named CH Diversha Opportunity Knocks. I do not know his breeder, but I am told she is absolutely devastated. I have owned a girl who died of cardio and I am praying that the genes have fallen in my favor with my girl.

Instead of looking forward to puppies from her after her CH and obedience titles, Cheers will be spayed this summer. So this thread is somewhat bittersweet to me, as I now have an 18 month old unbreedable girl who may die of cardio. I love her very much.

This makes the thread started by someone thinking their dog does not measure up because of not being big enough kind of petty, doesn't it?

 

I do agree that it is a crap shoot no matter where/how much testing you do when it comes to cardio. I have first hand knowledge of this.....

I am very sorry about your girl Cheers. Once you have lived this, you learn and I can remember talking to Ray about health issues before I got my Kira and discussing that there were no guarantees in life. Kira died suddenly while playing with my Boston Terrier in the backyard. She was five years and five months old. She was tested annually for CERF, thyroid, blood panels, echo/holters and whatever else was needed. In fact, she had an ekg, echo and 24 holter monitor six weeks before she died and tested great. My cardio vet even had me work her while she was in the holter. When she died, I DID have her necropsied by the same board certified veterinary cardiologist that had seen her annualy since she was two years old and he sent several tissue samples out for processing. Her heart looked totally normal and showed no signs of cardiomyopathy. The cause I was given was fatal arrythmia. This is the same thing that happens to young seeminly healthy basketball players that collapse. I was told it has to do with misfiring neurons in the brain which fail to communicate to the beating heart. No one could know this would ever happen.
Carolyn

 

I agree that the testing is certainly a good thing. At least you know the breeding stock is healthy at the time of the breeding.

I think I can also see VAbtrfly's point that it is no GUARANTEE that your dog won't end up with some of the problems tested for. Hips, cardio come to mind. Obviously the vwd test is a one time thing. You do the best you can with what you know at the time....

Breeders used to not CERF test or do OFA on elbows....I thought it was a not really a problem in Dobes? I'm just curious as I only get a pup every decade or so.

 

The point that many people are missing is that keeping accurate breeding records includes ALL aspects....show wins, performance titles and appropriate health testing. To infer that any form of health testing isn't worth doing because it does not give you a "forever" picture is completely short sighted. Yearly testing gives you INFORMATION that you can use to make better decisions now and for the future generations. Personally I think breeding dobermans without it is the real crap shoot.

One still cannot negate that fact that breeding a bitch for example, without at least having current testing to tell you the state of her health and thereby ability to whelp safely is irresponsible in my opinion. That point in itself tells me a lot about the breeder. We also need to rise above the show wins and strive for betterment of the breed. It's what separates the men from the boys as they say.

Every time this subject comes up it occurs to me that many people want to shed a negative light on tests....why? The money? The time? They have something to hide? One would think that every bit of info would be important and to say it just doesn't guarantee anything is just so not the point.

Women should get yearly mammograms.....does that guarantee they won't get cancer? Of course not. But it DOES help with early detection and treatment and can extend ones life. Many women get more frequent testing.....because of family history. The same is true for dogs. Yearly detection of some diseases CAN significantly alter your dogs lifespan. How does that point continually get overlooked in these conversations?

The bottom line for me is that I feel that health testing is an appropriate and integral part of my breeding plans and I think every doberman breeder should do at least the basics and/or baselines before breeding. One would think that statement would have the doberman community in agreement....that fact that is does not just makes me stand by and just shake my head.

 

Elaine-
I certainly was not saying that testing should not be done. I do think having the health and performance records of your line is very important.

I was just curious as to when CERF and elbows became routine as when I last bought a pup (prior to the girl I now own) ...in the 90's... the Dobe breeders at that time did not do that routinely. Have they found eyes and elbows to be weak, or did the testing begin becasue it was available?

 

I was just curious as to when CERF and elbows became routine as when I last bought a pup (prior to the girl I now own) ...in the 90's... the Dobe breeders at that time did not do that routinely. Have they found eyes and elbows to be weak, or did the testing begin becasue it was available?

When I purchased my male in 1995, his parents had been CERFed, so I don't think that test is particularly new. I was with a friend when her bitch came back with a negative CERF result, so not all Dobes get an automatic pass. I've heard that there is PRA in some European lines. Since more and more people are incorporating some European lines into their breeding programs, it makes sense to test for it. Usually you can have it done at a dog show CERF clinic for $20-$25.

In regards to elbows, a lot of agility people have started doing OFA Elbow films on their agility prospects, because of the impact agility places on the front end. I think that a lot of us feel that as long as the dog is having it's hips done, why not just get the elbows done at the same time and get it done with?

 

Awesome post Elaine! Thank you. :clap_1:

 

My Murrey bitch had her elbows certified in 1994. At that time around 300 dobermans were in their database for elbows.

To date, 1321 dobermans have had their elbows certified, with 98.5% of the dogs receiving a normal grade.

My personal opinion is people began testing elbows because no one could really say whether a problem exists in a breed or not unless they look. The additional cost to do elbows when you're already doing hip xrays is minor.

From what veterinary opthamologists (sp?) have told me, eye problems are primarily a problem in European dogs.

CERF testing and elbow certifications are kind of the icing on the cake for me..I don't think they're being done routinely (as evidenced by the low number of dobermans who've had their elbows done), but it's nice when you see them done. I'd be far more concerned about eye testing being done on the parents if I were buying a puppy with European dogs in the pedigree.

Just to add my own input to Kim's question: the bitches I've used for breeding had all the health testing done that was recommended at the time they were bred, sometimes a bit more. Rush's mother was the last one bred, that was 7 years ago. She was OFA excellent, elbows normal, thyroid normal, vWD carrier, CERF, with recent cardiac testing at the time she was bred. She had a frozen semen litter, the sire being dead almost 10 years at the time. He was OFA normal (at the time he was OFA'd, they didn't assign the categories they do now), thyroid normal, vWD clear via ELISA test, the only vWD test available during his lifetime.

Because Rush's sire had an ELISA test score, a test which was subsequently proven to be unreliable, there was a possibility I was doing a carrier x carrier breeding. So the puppies in the litter were dna tested for vWD prior to placement.

 

CERF is important

Like I stated before, we found one retinal fold in Aubrey's eye. The opthemologist did not know if it were genetic or due to injury. Regardless, I had her eyes done because the European dogs seem to have a history of PHPV, juvanile cataracts, and persistent pupillary membranes. I will do it on my American dogs as well, ya never know what could pop up and bite ya.

 

As a breeder, I did OFA hips (good), OFA Thyroid (normal), cerf (normal), full blood panel including liver kidney function (normal), cardiac Ultrasound & EKG (normal), VWD DNA(clear). All of the above testing that is ongoing (cardiac, thyroid, blood panel) was done within a couple months of breeding her. The stud dog had Penn Hip done instead of OFA, thyroid, vwd DNA, Cardiac Ultrasound & EKG. They are both young dogs and we did not expect to find anything (they are both 3 now), but to not do it is irresponsible IMHO. I personally would probably not breed to a dog whose on going health testing was not done recently.

Copies of everything went in the puppy binders.

While I agree that you can never guarantee against things like Cardio, thyroid...etc.... You should still test on a continuing basis whether you breed or not. I don't test my bitch just for breeding purposes - I test her because I love her and want to know how her health is doing. If I'm able to catch something early and either treat it or prolong her life then it was well worth it.

I'm already talking to my puppy people about health testing at adulthood.

 

I'm just curious, what does a necropsy cost??

 

Probably varies by area, who does it, etc. A friend of mine just lost a 7 year old bitch to sudden death about a month ago. I think she said the necropsy was about $600. I'll double check with her for sure.

Necropsies need to involve more than just looking at the organs with the naked eye. Tissue samples need to be taken of the heart and examined by a pathologist.

 

My girl's parents had their eyes, thyroid, hips, and hearts tested, and they were tested for VWD. Everything was normal at the time of the tests. But her dad was VWD carrier. I'm not sure about Hercules, because I didn't get him from a breeder. We rescued him from a guy that couldn't keep him. I just enjoy and love both of them so much, and hope to have them for at least 10 years. I strongly believe that testing should be done by EVERY breeder, although there are no guarantees, especially with DCM.

 

Dam and sire both OFA good.
Both Thyroid Antak normal.
Both CERF normal.
Both vWD clear Vetgen.
Neither has had cardio. Extensive collected info on longevity was provided to me - amazing how many very long-lived ancestors Bella has with only one known early death which was not cardio.

I was impressed with the focus on health by my breeder.

 

I have not posted to say that I think health testing in invalid. Quite the oppposite. I do believe that health testing the parents... grandparents... etc. is IMPORTANT. I think I was trying to say that no amount of health testing "within the breed" gives any of us a guarantee as to what ANY of our futures hold. Some dogs come from the finest breeders with every test known to man-kind. Some dogs come to us from rescue or BYB's with NO background at all. I have seen the "creme of the crop" fall to diseases and I have watched the rescues flourish until old age AND vice-versa.... that is why I wondered (aloud) the relevance of this thread. To me, there is no division. A dobe... no matter where you might have aquired him/her.... is still a dobe. Health tested or not. We all get the same thing.... a dog who needs to be needed... and who craves our attention, love, and protection.
In the grand scheme of things, the titles, the testing, etc... Don't we all fall in love with the same characteristics.... the same temperament... the same companion... the same breed of dog??? Why does health testing (or the lack thereof) need to divide us further? Shouldn't it be for love of the breed alone? Yes, some buy (unwittingly) from less than perfect breeders and some of us buy from breeders that WE know breed out of lines with "certain" health defects. We fool ourselves into thinking that as long as the sire and dam have the adequate health testing that we are somehow immune to what the BYB's offer. But, are we really???? IMHO, not always. Sure, we are guaranteed what our dogs may "look like" but, we have no way of knowing what lies in our future health wise.... no matter where the dog comes from. I hope that one day we all will. Until then.... I welcome everyone who owns a dobe, (no matter where that dog comes from) to interact without feeling less than perfect with the choices they might have made. That is why I questioned the relevance of this thread. I apologize if I offended anyone, most especially the OP. That was certainly not my intent. I have owned dobes from the best of lines and I have rescued dobes from the worst. I still fall somewhere in the middle, lol.

Take care all,
VB

 

Sire is fully health tested:

vWD Clear
OFA - good
Elbows - normal
Thyroid - normal
CERF - normal
Cardio - normal


And the dam:

vWD Affected (All puppies will be carrier by parentage)
CERF - normal
Liver, thyroid, and hips were done (As of today, I don't know the ratings)

Cardio - not done! (I'm OK with this. I was told it has not been done yet because she is still quite young, at only 2 years of age. It will be done in the future).

 

Not surprisingly, Lexy's parents received no health testing before breeding. Since then, her mom had her hips done (fair). Her grandad had hips (good), thyroid (normal), and elbows (normal). Nothing else online for any of them.

Title of the thread asked for honesty, so there it is...

 

i have seen both parents with excellent hips throw a pup with fair ones....there again, go figure.