That's quite a common opinion in the UK Schutz scene from what I have seen and from talking to people. Some people have the opinion if it's not a GSD or mal it can't compete.

There are still people who train, though not very many.

 

I really like this article.

why dobermans are different

You will see a lot more GSD's on the field for sure. But we do have amazing IPO dobermanns, even here on this forum. Check out Landgrafs male Eiko, he is kicking butt and taking names!

vom Landgraf

 

No matter where you go people always say the same thing! While I agree there are a lot of nerve bag Dobermans out there doing the sport. There are some half decent dogs to. I think if you want to be super competitive in the sport you are going to have a hard time finding a great Doberman to do so. Just by shear numbers alone good Shepherds are easier to find.

I love the sport but I also love my breed of choice. I also like a challenge so doing it well with a Doberman will surly be rewarding.

I also think that if you want to learn more about the sport and your dogs train and compete with them. Just find a club that is fair to your dogs and doesn't train heavy handed AND that will except the breed.

 

Let it be your motivation to work hard

 

That article is great but it doesn't explain how these changes to training should be made.

Visiting the club really opened my eyes to some comments in another thread made by a dude about BYB.
I can appreciate where he was coming from alot more now.

I had noticed it VERY difficult for instance to get a Doberman to really HEEL close in like those dogs were doing today like rubbing the handlers leg.
From what I can gather this is very highly regarded in SChutzhund.
The attention the dogs were paying to the owners face is also something I have never seen in any of my Dobes, yes they are paying attention to me and what I want them to do, but they have been also payed attention to whats going on around us, not necessarily reacting to it but being aware of it. Obviously this is great for a real life protection/security dog but not so for a Schutzhund dog.
I may have got the wrong end of the stick with that one by the way, this is my first real interaction with Schutzhund and Schutzhund enthusiasts other than just watching displays/demos and vids.
Amazingly that article was very fascinating for me being a terrier guy.....lolz

Anyone got any links to vids of dobermans actually doing Schutzhund, like the whole thing not just protection?

 

That article is great but it doesn't explain how these changes to training should be made.

Visiting the club really opened my eyes to some comments in another thread made by a dude about BYB.
I can appreciate where he was coming from alot more now.

I had noticed it VERY difficult for instance to get a Doberman to really HEEL close in like those dogs were doing today like rubbing the handlers leg.
From what I can gather this is very highly regarded in SChutzhund.
The attention the dogs were paying to the owners face is also something I have never seen in any of my Dobes, yes they are paying attention to me and what I want them to do, but they have been also payed attention to whats going on around us, not necessarily reacting to it but being aware of it. Obviously this is great for a real life protection/security dog but not so for a Schutzhund dog.
I may have got the wrong end of the stick with that one by the way, this is my first real interaction with Schutzhund and Schutzhund enthusiasts other than just watching displays/demos and vids.
Amazingly that article was very fascinating for me being a terrier guy.....lolz

Anyone got any links to vids of dobermans actually doing Schutzhund, like the whole thing not just protection?

To the bolded, your dogs have never 'focused like that' or 'heeled' like that in the past, because they were never trained to

I got my dog as an abused adult who would not look anyone in the eye. He now happily heels practically on top of me while watching me.

 

ps..if this dog can do it, a doberman definitely can

KIBrQS0vCiM

 

love seeing different breeds soing Schutzhund, always interesting. Enjoyed this!

 

This is just heeling, but I've always like this video and the dog's focus


9XBtAOB4o9I

 

Yay! I answered my own request!

Sch 3 Doberman ' schutzhund, heeling,working dogs, b - YouTube

Well that gives me hope lolz.

Hahaha same vid, how did you embed it like that?

 

I know Aritaur, a breeder in the UK, do/have trained in the sport. I'm not really sure how far they are from you, but maybe it would be worth giving them a call and asking about their club? They might be able to make some recommendations.

 

Thanks.
Yes one of the dudes at the club mentioned this.
Like I said they weren't 'dissing' dobermans, they were all Fab people and it was a very good set up there.
They were just giving me the benefit of their experience.

 

This is my little girls sire and dam, Eiko v. Landgraf Sch.3, at the 2012 AWDF Championship Eiko v. Landgraf AWDF 2012 Obedience - YouTube

I can't seem to find Gamy's video's I think they might have been removed. But here is another nice team at the IDC Championship.IDC 2010 - Vrbové - YouTube

It's all in the training, of course your dog must have very good drive.

 

Heelwork like that isn't that hard to achieve, most breeds can do it. In NZ it is the only heeling that will get you anywhere in competitive obedience, if you can't do that then you won't get out of Special beginners/Novice level - and lots of dogs of different breeds have gotten out!

 

Go to youtube search "Ottomac dobermann" review the videos, italian dog, pedigree with non traditional working dobermann lines. The Italians have dominated the IDC for the last few years. Some good dobes coming out of the Ukraine as well, coming from non tradional working lines. There is really no comparison between Forrell dogs and the new breed of Schutzhund dobes coming out of Italy and the Ukraine these days. Schutzhund has evolved the trainers, training techniques are much better. Mike Ellis advises his customers interested in Schutzhund to look at the the world championship videos from 15 years ago and compare them with the videos from the last few years "the difference is jaw dropping". That being said Langraf a dobe breeder/competitor from California has done well with traditional working line dobes such the dogs Forrell still breeds.

 

Go to youtube search "Ottomac dobermann" review the videos, italian dog, pedigree with non traditional working dobermann lines. The Italians have dominated the IDC for the last few years. Some good dobes coming out of the Ukraine as well, coming from non tradional working lines. There is really no comparison between Forrell dogs and the new breed of Schutzhund dobes coming out of Italy and the Ukraine these days. .

Ottomac seems to have a lot of working line in his pedigree to me. I am not sure what you are talking about in regards to working dogs coming out of the Ukraine??? Uwe Stolpe told me he judged a Doberman at a trial in the Ukraine where a Doberman was quite good. Occasionally you will see a dog coming out of show lines that can work exceptionally well but this is generally not common. As far as the health from the lines out of Eastern Europe, well that is a whole other discussion. In terms of the other Italian show dog that won the IDC a few years ago I thought the judging in protection was extremely generous to the team. It scored a 90. That same performance at say the WUSV would have been lucky to receive 80 points.

 

This was not said with any malice at all so dont get the wrong idea they just said to me I would be better off with a GSD.
Their GSD's were AMAZING to watch.
Thoughts anyone?

.

Check out ivan balabanov Schutzhund videos on youtube, his malinois is back to back world champion winner, and he currently has pups available for sale.

 

To embed youtube videos--

Copy the url

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XBtAOB4o9I

and paste it in your post.

Then change the format

9XBtAOB4o9I

(Do you see what I did--take that string of numbers and letters after the equal sign in the url and stick it in between the bracketed tags.)


And then you should see:

9XBtAOB4o9I

 

Buddy's dad was Gino he was awarded the German Krong a few years ago.Bouviers also can do Schutzhund even know a lady that had her Dachshund do all the tracking and obedience at a Schutzhund trial. Any dog can do it if you put the work in.

 

Dobermans in Schutzhund

I have had the pleasure of owning several dobermans over the years. My primary interest with them is in performance and my chosen sport is schutzhund.

During my first few years (2 before I got a working line pup) whilst I researched and learned everything I possibly could about the sport AND the breed - I stumbled across this article. It is, IMHO a decent place to start reading about some good personality traits that you would want in a schutzhund dog. It is on a doberman breeders website as well - and he has some other good info posted as well you can check out if you are interested.

Cara Dobermans: Alisa

After working dogs in the sport for 3 years now, I do not feel as thought it is an exhaustive list, but if you are still quite new to the breed and sport, get out there, learn as much as possible about everything. Always listen to what people have to say - You do not have to agree with them, but it is part of the information gathering process.

Go out to clubs and watch regular training, speak with members, go to trials and chat with people. Learning about the sport is so much more then just reading on the internet what people post on forums, blogs, training sites etc. (although those can have usefulness as well, sometimes newbies can be overwhelmed and confused with the oodles of info and sometimes contradictory information).

There are nice working dobes out there, they certainly do not seem to be the "norm". It is far easier to find a dobe that may only be successful in obedience or tracking. Which for me is not enough.

Several of some more well known working dobes have been posted on this thread already - look them up, look at their pedigrees and their titles.

Enjoy the journey, it is not easy, can be exhausting and sometimes you feel like it is overwhelming, but when you have a nice working dog and you are out there training/trialing as a team together - I can honestly tell you, it is 100% worth it!

 

GSDs have the same problem many other breeds do...most are bad ones that look like good ones and a few actually good ones. There are just more of them compared to other breeds. No doubt, they are one of the most popular if not the most popular for schutzhund, but they are also a whole different cup of tea and require a different training style, most of which I don't enjoy. I want a dog that is "there" and thinking on the field with me...not one that has so much freakin' ball drive it would try to run through a brick wall to get the ball. Honestly, I think they are popular because they are easier to train as most "trainers" (and I use that term lightly) use compulsion and other breeds won't tolerate it. ...but I could be wrong.

Now a Malinois I would enjoy, they are smart and high energy...love that...except for the double coat.

I probably have two of the most unpopular breeds in the schutzhund world. I have a doberman who is a great obedience and tracking dog...bitework is just not developed yet (may never be). He isn't from working lines so the bitework could be a struggle for him. My Bouvier on the other hand, is fantastic. He's tough, but so much fun. My training director has bred Bouviers and Mals for over 40 years, obviously since they breed, we have mostly Bouvs at the club and they are all better in protection than all the other breeds.

Even though I love the Bouvs, I will always have a doberman (and from now on, one from working lines). Saying a dobe can't do schutzhund is such BS, they can do it, and do it well.

 

Here is Beccas first attempt........

cSFIT_cn7tY&feature

I think I'm too laid back for this, :roflmao:

 

Here is Beccas first attempt........

I think I'm too laid back for this, :roflmao:

No, thats actually good! Instead of picking the treat out of your pocket and handing it to her, I would hold it in my hand up on my chest so that you get better focus on you instead of the treat bag. Do short little sessions with lots of energy so she gets excited about the work.

I added a video of some heeling work from a couple months ago. The Bouvier is only a puppy so he is constantly nibbling the food in my hand as I heel and introduce him to the group...now he is heeling for longer sessions with focus on me and getting the reward. The dobe is at the end, you can see how I hold the food up close to my face. I give a "yes" reward marker right before he gets the food. Now he is starting to heel with the food out of sight because he knows what heeling is and has been taught that "yes" means a reward is coming.

bnRAz1NTAyw

 

i may not be objective (because i'm a doberman lover) but they are not that bad. people are exaggerating a little bit. am i right? and some people say sports like schutzhund doesn't mean anything , they are just games. unlike many people think , i think that today's doberman is still a personal protection dog and do protect better than a malinois or german shepherd.

 

The reason why people say that Dobermans are no good at Schutzhund is because the majority of Dobermans today cannot compete on the same level with the shepherd dogs. There are even showline Dobermans who earn Schutzhund titles but you will not see them at the top levels of competition nationally and internationally. It is not easy to find a Doberman who really has the ability to go the mile and perform as well as or better than the top sporting GSDs and Malinois.

If you want to do Schutzhund for the rewards of working with your dog and the bond that comes along with that, it should not be too difficult to find a breeder for you— especially with the resource of this forum to help you. However, if you want to be a real competitor in the highest levels of the sport, you have some serious work on your hands to find the dog that you are looking for. It would be easier (though certainly less rewarding in the long run, assuming that you are a Doberman person and not a shepherd person) to find a German Shepherd or Malinois... although certainly it is never "easy" to find a dog of any breed with that magnitude of potential.

I'm certain that some people will disagree with me, and that's fine, and in fact I welcome any information that can be presented to me. I will be the very first person to admit that my experience is very limited as I am still on the long and winding road of researching breeders and bloodlines to find the Doberman for me. But that seems to be the lesson that I have learned so far in my reading and talking to people who do work their Dobermans competitively.

 

I think it would be helpful if you (and anyone else who encounters this) could get the trainers and club members to elaborate on some specific reasons why they think Dobermann's are no good for Schutzhund.

It would be helpful to breeders and to the rest of us. IF the reasons experienced people are dismissing Dobermann's are legitimate, then folks who love the breed need to take notice.

Back 15 years or so when I was first researching working breeds, I was told by several folks that Dobermanns were a poor choice. When I'm told stuff like that I've got to ask why. Usually more questions follow until I can get an explanation that seems at least somewhat factual and not just some dude's biased opinion.

Back then, some reasons I was given were-
Low drive. The dogs would either be uninterested in working or would quickly loose interest.
They were prissy. This is linked to low drive. The dogs would do stuff like sit funny or be reluctant to lay down in wet grass, mud, etc.
Too soft. The dogs would start to shut down when corrected or faced with learning difficult/complex tasks on a time frame.
Poor nerves. The dogs would be easily spooked by various objects or situations. Many would act tough on the surface but would avoid actually engaging an aggressive or threatening helper.

At the time, rather than accept the facts, Dobermann enthusiasts would claim this was because the dogs were too intelligent, easily bored or some other excuse.

An interesting thing to note is that virtually all the complaints about the Dobermann were also voiced about “American” German Shepherd Dogs. “American” GSD enthusiasts would make the same excuses about their low drive or poor nerved dogs (Too smart, very sensitive to human emotion, blah, blah, yada, yada). The difference was that there were plenty of breeders here in the US breeding “European” GSD's and the price was competitive if not cheaper than an “American” GSD. If you wanted a dog to work with you simply purchased one from a "European" breeder. This wasn't the case with the Dobermann.

Times change. Now I've got a dog bred by Von Luka Dobermann's (workingk9's on this forum). We have been privileged to visit a few Schutzhund clubs and he can hang with the average GSD or Mal we've seen. Could he compete at a regional or national level? Not with me he can't. I'll be lucky to get SchH1 at a club level. But with a competitive handler? Maybe. Point being that it is possible in the US to get a Schutzhund capable Dobermann these days. There are several notable breeders here producing SchH capable dogs. I've no idea how common or difficult it is to find one in the UK or Wales though. It may very well be the case that your area generally isn't breeding work capable dogs.

It would be helpful information if you'd post some of their specific reasons they believe Dobermanns are no good for Schutzhund.

 

I think it would be helpful if you (and anyone else who encounters this) could get the trainers and club members to elaborate on some specific reasons why they think Dobermann's are no good for Schutzhund.

It would be helpful to breeders and to the rest of us. IF the reasons experienced people are dismissing Dobermann's are legitimate, then folks who love the breed need to take notice.

Back 15 years or so when I was first researching working breeds, I was told by several folks that Dobermanns were a poor choice. When I'm told stuff like that I've got to ask why. Usually more questions follow until I can get an explanation that seems at least somewhat factual and not just some dude's biased opinion.

Back then, some reasons I was given were-
Low drive. The dogs would either be uninterested in working or would quickly loose interest.
They were prissy. This is linked to low drive. The dogs would do stuff like sit funny or be reluctant to lay down in wet grass, mud, etc.
Too soft. The dogs would start to shut down when corrected or faced with learning difficult/complex tasks on a time frame.
Poor nerves. The dogs would be easily spooked by various objects or situations. Many would act tough on the surface but would avoid actually engaging an aggressive or threatening helper.

At the time, rather than accept the facts, Dobermann enthusiasts would claim this was because the dogs were too intelligent, easily bored or some other excuse.

An interesting thing to note is that virtually all the complaints about the Dobermann were also voiced about “American” German Shepherd Dogs. “American” GSD enthusiasts would make the same excuses about their low drive or poor nerved dogs (Too smart, very sensitive to human emotion, blah, blah, yada, yada). The difference was that there were plenty of breeders here in the US breeding “European” GSD's and the price was competitive if not cheaper than an “American” GSD. If you wanted a dog to work with you simply purchased one from a "European" breeder. This wasn't the case with the Dobermann.

Times change. Now I've got a dog bred by Von Luka Dobermann's (workingk9's on this forum). We have been privileged to visit a few Schutzhund clubs and he can hang with the average GSD or Mal we've seen. Could he compete at a regional or national level? Not with me he can't. I'll be lucky to get SchH1 at a club level. But with a competitive handler? Maybe. Point being that it is possible in the US to get a Schutzhund capable Dobermann these days. There are several notable breeders here producing SchH capable dogs. I've no idea how common or difficult it is to find one in the UK or Wales though. It may very well be the case that your area generally isn't breeding work capable dogs.

It would be helpful information if you'd post some of their specific reasons they believe Dobermanns are no good for Schutzhund.

How would you define times changing? What measurable criteria would you look at? Number of dogs trialed? Number of dogs that pass a trial? Percent of dogs that pass a trial? Comparison of overall / average scores from year to year?

 

Times have changed in that I can spend an hour or two and find multiple Dobermann breeders either actively participating in SchH, or using SchH titled dogs in their breeding programs. 15 years ago I couldn't find any. If I can locate dogs/breeders then anyone else can too. I don't have or need a network of who knows whom to find a dog or breeder actively participating in SchH. Scores and videos are easily located or abtainable.

Now, are there actually more breeders and participants now, or is it simply a product of the internet and information exchange ability that allows me to find these Dobermann breeders? I don't know.

Regardless of why, times have changed because now I can find them.

 

Times have changed in that I can spend an hour or two and find multiple Dobermann breeders either actively participating in SchH, or using SchH titled dogs in their breeding programs. 15 years ago I couldn't find any. If I can locate dogs/breeders then anyone else can too. I don't have or need a network of who knows whom to find a dog or breeder actively participating in SchH. Scores and videos are easily located or abtainable.

Now, are there actually more breeders and participants now, or is it simply a product of the internet and information exchange ability that allows me to find these Dobermann breeders? I don't know.

Regardless of why, times have changed because now I can find them.

I more meant the implication in your post that the quality of the dogs have improved over time from "back then" to now. If I misinterpreted that, my apologies.

I would agree it's easier to find information now. My guess would be it's more due to the internet given the number of dogs trialing hasn't changed all that drastically during the the last 15-20 years, at least when looking at the 2 largest Schutzhund organizations within the United States.

 

I have recently become jealous of some other dogs drives. Some dogs have it, and some don't. A puggle i know is one of them for example... Two puggles, same litter. The female is so driven it's insane, while the male is useless. Some may say that "any" dog can do it, but I disagree. If my dog had that play drive things would be so much easier, and so much more would be achievable.

With that being said she isn't fall flat on her face lazy, but I had to laugh at the post above about the wet grass. Wet grass, we get slowwwwww sits and downs. I have a half acre of fenced in yard. I clean it daily. If I try to get a down in an area where I recently (the last week) cleaned up after her, she gives me this look. I try to get to a different field when I can since she gets lifted by the different stimuli, but it's hard to do that daily. Right now we are having heavy drive problems. I'm off for the summer, so we are together much of the day. I used to come home and have to beat her off me, now since she's up all day I have to drag her out into the heat just to play/train. Recently we started working on the pivot. She's just starting to get it, and we can do that in the a.c.

 

I was told Dobermans are not good for Schutzhund in two city clubs. Also I met people who switched from Dobermans to Malinois and GSDs to succeed in the sport. Malinois and GSD are "wired" differently. Also Doberman short hair is a bit of problem in the winter. That's what I was told.

A Doberman is too intelligent for the sport... too much thinking! They want to train us.

 

I was told Dobermans are not good for Schutzhund in two city clubs. Also I met people who switched from Dobermans to Malinois and GSDs to succeed in the sport. Malinois and GSD are "wired" differentlyAlso Doberman short hair is a bit of problem in the winter. That's what I was told.

A Doberman is too intelligent for the sport... too much thinking! They want to train us.

Comments like that are pretty harsh IMO especially considering the number of amazing working Dobermann's out there. What about the dobermanns competing at the national level (and doing well at that)? What about the dobermann's in other countries (eg European countries) who are also competing against GSDs and Mals? Are their trainers and owners making excuses for them saying "well, I have a Dobermann so whatever I do was better than the GSD because the shepherd is better as a breed". Not that I know of atleast.

Yes, in pure numbers, the Shepherds and Mals are easily the 'top' of the schutzhund realm. But if there were that many working Dobermann's out there competing, this may not necessarily be the case. Too many now good trainers were originally told that Dobermann's can not do the job, and they went with a GSD or a Mal. Simply because "tradition" told them that these breeds were necessary to do anything in the sport.

There were SchH Dobermann breeders in the country way back when (I train with one of the "oldies"), but they were breeding a different type of dog, didn't get involved in politics, and for the most part are pretty hard to search for considering the "old fashioned ways" of not adapting to internet sites and lingo.

To the bolded part, this to me is just an excuse. Yes they are different than GSDs and Mals. They are a working breed, not from herding dogs, and they have different drives. It doesn't mean they are un-trainable, it just means they require different training. One of the problems with the notion of working Dobermanns is that some ill-informed trainers attempt to use the same methods to train the Dobermans as they do the shepherds and mals. Yes they are different breeds, yes in terms of sheer volume they outperform Dobermanns, and yes they may be 'easier' to train for the average schH trainer only experienced in GSDs, but this does not mean a Dobermann can not succeed at schutzhund. You've got to find the particular lines and breeding that utilize the drives of a good working dog, but it is NOT impossible. It just takes more digging and effort than it does with the shepherds.

I think with the movement towards more positive methods and less compulsion, more Dobermann's will begin to "pop up", as the pure number of working breeders and dobermanns will rise.

ETA: I'm not the best writer out there, and I hope someone understands my direction as my writing is a bit "off". Apologies