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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Is it true that most of the licensed ZTP judges have ever trained a dobe to an IPO 3?

If this is true, how can they accurately judge a ZTP when it is in essence a character test?

I know of one that has: Rudi Killmaier. Who else?
 
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MOATS
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Bios for a few of the judges.

Rudi Killmaier

Hans Wiblishauser

Thomas Becht





Mr. Norbert Daube
(DV Chief Breed Warden & IDC Breed Warden)

Norbert Daube was born on 2nd March, 1949, in Bielefeld, Germany and is married with two children and is a repro-technician.

He officially joined the Dobermann Verein (Bielefeld section) in 1970 but was already introduced to dog training in his childhood by his father. He and his father together started a kennel which Norbert eventually took over and bred once through the alphabet.

Norbert became Breed Warden of the Bielefeld section of the DV in 1976 and President in 1977 and two years later, in 1979, he took over the position of Dobermann Breed Warden of the province Westfalen. He organised the first CAC Show held in the Bielefeld section in 1977 and has organized an annual show there ever since. He has also been Show Manager at numerous CACIB-, Euro- and Bundessieger Shows in Dortmund as well as being Test Manager for numerous Schutzhund Trials and ZTP’s in Bielefeld.

Norbert has qualified various Dobermann bitches in SchHI-III, IPOI-III and FH in the last decade. He qualified his last bitch in SchHIII, IPOIII & FHI. She also became a German DV & VDH Champion.

In 1996 Norbert became a Specialist Dobermann Breed and ZTP Judge and was elected to the position of Chief Breed Warden with the Dobermann Verein in 1997. He has judged CAC-, CACIB-, IDC-, Sieger and ZTP Shows in the following countries: Indonesia, America, Finland, Italy, France, Slovenia, Sweden, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Luxemburg, Russia, South Africa, Poland, Hungary, Austria, Greece, Romania, the Ukraine and Lithuania.

In 2009 Norbert took over the position of Breed Warden for the International Dobermann Club (IDC) – a position he holds to date.
 

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Doberman Slave
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I wouldn't confuse the bite work in the ZTP for the bite work in the IPO 3 level. The ZTP is an overall character assessment, not a bite sport competition. I have received ZTP's under each of the judges listed here and respect them all very much in their knowledge and ability to judge my dogs.
 
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I think they are somewhat of a mixed bag. Some have been ok some not so much. I think despite what some of the bio's say most show judges seem to me to be show people first and working people last. Also some of the political shenanigans I have heard about from some of my German friends is quite astounding. As far as the ones listed above I have been in CAC shows or ZTP's (as a group member) under 3 of the 4 listed.

I personally don't place a ton of credence to a show guy evaluating working temperament of dogs. Though it is better than nothing (at least in most cases). I absolutely value what they have to say as far as conformation. Then again I don't place that much credence on some IPO judges that haven't handled a dog in over 20 years. I have also seen some judges who were extremely pathetic as handlers yet go on to be a judge that people are somehow supposed to place a high value on their opinion. I don't get it.
 

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Doberman Slave
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Well, rumors are always true, people never hold grudges against judges, and everyone's an expert if they've even particpated let alone actually put their dogs up for evaluation. LMAO.....

If you had to be a "working" person to be able to judge temperament we would all really be in trouble. I wonder how many of the swedish mentality test evaluators have titled a dog to IPO3? Statistically, no dog who has passed that test has washed out of their working program.

We have put more ZTP's (only DV ZTP's) on our dogs than I believe any other breeder in the US. We have more IPO 3 titles on our dogs than probably anyone on this forum. I would never proclaim myself an expert and I personally place a lot of creedence in the folks who have been doing this for many more years than I and have put themselves and their dogs out there.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I was reading about some very interesting things going on with the DV...mainly about this past year's IDC Seiger and the fact that he shouldn't have ever passed IPO 1, let alone a ZTP.

This is the IDC Seiger's ZTP...he received a rating of V1A. Keep in mind this is the best of the dog's evaluation...the rest either wasn't shown or was edited out as you can see in the protection clip when the dog came off the sleeve...the first time.
yWbhSqJ0mVE

Protection:
eAPhj96krcc


It just seems a little crazy to me that in order for a dog to pass a ZTP, hips must be evaluated by DV, the test must be judged by a DV judge--from Germany-- and yet the majority of these judges are not even involved in working sports? It kinda lowers my (personal) opinion on the significance of a ZTP. Don't get me wrong...I think it is wonderful that there is such an exam, just not when it isn't evaluated correctly or politics overrides a true evaluation.
 

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I was reading about some very interesting things going on with the DV...
Are you talking about this???:

Dobermann Insider

I take it all with a grain of salt. The fact is I don't really give a rats ass about the show side of the Doberman world. I would take the conformation evaluations to heart however in terms of an objective prospective.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Are you talking about this???:

Dobermann Insider

I take it all with a grain of salt. The fact is I don't really give a rats ass about the show side of the Doberman world. I would take the conformation evaluations to heart however in terms of an objective prospective.
Yes haha. I didn't want to mention that directly and bring more attention to it before I knew about this ZTP stuff and what they were saying about that. As far as the rest of it...I don't really care about it either. I just had a question about the ZTP as far as how it is evaluated and how significant it really was. The rest of it sounds like a big mess and a bunch of "if only"...
 

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The protection component of many of the ZTP's that I see on video from around the world are a joke in my opinion. Apparently I am not the only one who thinks so. It is no different in the GSD world however. There are too many instances of people making a mockery of the protection ability aspects of the working breeds.
 

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Well, rumors are always true, people never hold grudges against judges, and everyone's an expert if they've even particpated let alone actually put their dogs up for evaluation. LMAO.....
What do you mean by this?

If you had to be a "working" person to be able to judge temperament we would all really be in trouble.
Why?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The protection component of many of the ZTP's that I see on video from around the world are a joke in my opinion. Apparently I am not the only one who thinks so. It is no different in the GSD world however. There are too many instances of people making a mockery of the protection ability aspects of the working breeds.
I just don't understand how a dog's character can really be evaluated by the protection work on the ZTP. I'm not an expert by any means, but that doesn't mean I am going to believe a dog has correct character just because he will bite a sleeve. Not to mention the amount of help the dog gets from the decoy...

Also, if a dog like the one I posted above can pass with a V1A rating, why is it rated at all? Why not just pass or fail? Obviously this dog is not and should not be the best we have to offer in breeding, so why give it the highest rating?

Maybe I'm going in circles...
 

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I just don't understand how a dog's character can really be evaluated by the protection work on the ZTP. I'm not an expert by any means, but that doesn't mean I am going to believe a dog has correct character just because he will bite a sleeve. Not to mention the amount of help the dog gets from the decoy...

Also, if a dog like the one I posted above can pass with a V1A rating, why is it rated at all? Why not just pass or fail? Obviously this dog is not and should not be the best we have to offer in breeding, so why give it the highest rating?

Maybe I'm going in circles...
The V refers strictly to the conformation rating. The 1A, I think in the judges mind refers more to the environmental soundness. How it reacts to the people closing in on them, the gunshots, the stranger approaching, bicycle riders, etc. I just have never noticed the protection work seemingly to have much of an effect. They are failed if they get chased or won't engage but other than that it does not seem to have much of an effect on the rating. I remember when Hara was judged in the ZTP by the now retired Dr. Schuler, her bite work and all of the most of the environmental stuff was good but she showed some sort of reaction to him approaching with a rolled up magazine and he gave her a 1b. I remember the helper, Les Flores being kind of astounded by the rating and said that's bs. I also remember Zorzi not being too happy about how he conducted the tests. I have heard from friends in Europe that he was considered a disaster by many as a ZTP judge. Personally it did not matter that much to me, I was happy to pass.

The sleeve should only be a part of the whole equation. It is much more important to read how the dog reacts to the decoy's attack on the handler/dog team. Of course in most instances in the way it is set up it is more of a prey exercise than what it is intended which is a demonstration of how it will handle a direct threat.

If a judge knows their stuff the bitework and the setting can tell them a lot about the dog.
 

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Apart from the judges mentioned on this board also Pezzano (only in Italy) and Dr. Bulo (only in Spain) may judge a ztp as well.

The last descent ztp i saw myself was in 1995. The judge back then was Ottmar Vogel (former "obstmann leistung" in Germany (head of the working department within the DV) and owner of the legendary Vello von Furstenfeld among other great dogs) Ottmar was probably the only of ALL ztp judges who trailed a dog to a descent level and knew his stuff. In that ztp i am talking about over half of the dogs failed.

How can you speak of a so called character test when most prepare for a few months before they enter. IMO you can't speak of the dog's natural behaviour since he'll know exactly where and when a helper will appear and where and when he has to do the other things required for the test. And EVEN then in most cases the helper has to adapt to the majority of the dogs. Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvYFFK2P2Mw sad but true :(
 

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Interesting tibit from an article by the aforementioned Ottmar Vogel:

"As our breed is frequently endowed with a rather high temperament and as many judges are incapable of distinguishing between correct temperament and nervousness, I also had to offer enlightenment in this regard. The assessment of these crucial points could only be carried out successfully by means of an isolation test using highly skilled breed judges. Here too I had to adopt unpopular measures for the benefit of the breed. Judges, who themselves are not free of inhibition and not strong of nerve, cannot correctly conduct this isolation test. Therefore only certain breed judges were selected by me for training and subsequently nominated as ZTP judges."
 
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