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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi all,

I'm new to this site. I was doing research and came across information that VetGen has recently (within the last 6 months) announced a DNA test that indicates whether the albino gene is present in dobermans or not. Knowing the concerns of z-factored dogs, I thought to contact the AKC to see what they might do about the papers of any dogs that tested negative. They're response was:

Thanks for writing. I have spoken to management and was told, a request to consider the removal of the Z indicator from Doberman Pinscher registrations would need to come through the Doberman Pinscher Club of America.

Best regards,

Letrice
DNA Processor
AKC DNA Operations

I then contacted the DPCA about this and their response was:

Thank you for your inquiry. As Public Education Chair for the Doberman Pinscher Club of America (DPCA), I was forwarded your email for response by the DPCA Board of Directors.

The DPCA will continue to track all descendants of Padula's Queen Sheba through Z-registration. No descendants will be removed from this list even if they test negative for carrying the albino gene.

We hope we have answered your question adequately but please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,
Tammy Kaplan
Public Education Chair

My final question - whether the DCPA would change their bylaws/guides (whatever the correct term is) to allow breeding of z-registered dogs that test negative. Until I hear from them, I was hoping to generate some discussion on this topic. I have my opinions but haven't come to any conclusion on how I'd vote if asked. It would be interesting to hear what you all had to say.
 

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I think that probably the main thing that the DNA test for the albino gene will accomplish is greeders and BYBs dumping their albino-negative dogs, and just breeding their albino-positive dogs.
 

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I think that probably the main thing that the DNA test for the albino gene will accomplish is greeders and BYBs dumping their albino-negative dogs, and just breeding their albino-positive dogs.

And when they get thru with their breeder dogs they dump them, too! Albino breeders are real winners!!!

See the sagging mammary glads? Looks like she's had quiet a few litters for her owners before they decided to pass her on for someone else to breed. See the calluses and sores....living on concrete.

https://m.facebook.com/GeorgiaDobermanRescue/posts/759468994103176

And here: http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberma...cue-over-year-she-needs-her-forever-home.html
 

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I cannot think of a single reason why we should keep breedering ablino dobermans. They aren't breed standard, they have awful skin issues, sensitive to light, and uneducated people eat them up thinking they are 'unique'. It is sad, really.

I am glad they have the Z registered on them. They deserve love, too, but they should not be bred. The suffering would only get worse.
 

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Even if they don't carry the albino gene, Z-factored dogs are still coming from Doberman lines that have been inbred in order to produce albinos. Albino breeders are going for color, and it's a recessive gene. Even if the pup doesn't carry the gene that produces albinism, they are still the product of inbred, unhealthy lines with a narrow gene pool. Those lines were bred for color. A solid temperament, working ability, and health weren't the focus for Z-factored lines.

Those are not lines that we need to continue, not when this breed already has serious issues as far as health goes.
 

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Even if they don't carry the albino gene, Z-factored dogs are still coming from Doberman lines that have been inbred in order to produce albinos. Albino breeders are going for color, and it's a recessive gene. Even if the pup doesn't carry the gene that produces albinism, they are still the product of inbred, unhealthy lines with a narrow gene pool. Those lines were bred for color. A solid temperament, working ability, and health weren't the focus for Z-factored lines.

Those are not lines that we need to continue, not when this breed already has serious issues as far as health goes.
This is really my biggest concern with the z-factor dogs, and why the DPCA rep's answer was spot-on. The albinoid dogs are messed-up more by all the severe, systematic inbreeding than by the genetic defect that's at the core of their condition.

It's one thing to perform tight inbreeding around champion lines, while I still consider that to be wrongheaded in a breed that's suffering from poor genetic health & diversity, at least the people who do so are focused on things like the foundation of the dogs they're producing. Color breeds are disasters, regardless of species. They're invariably poorly bred and have abysmal conformation and health, because the breeders are all blinded by their quest for expression of recessive genes or a flashy coat pattern.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks all for your replies. I would have to agree most with River. Although, it still makes me raise an eyebrow to know that the AKC and DCPA aren't in total unison. I've read posts from those with strong beliefs that reputable breeders don't breed z-factor dogs, and yet AKC has awarded breeders who do have such dobermans, recognizing them for producing top-notch dogs.

It also seems that there would be a way to get the Z off the papers, by just not papering a few generations of pups and getting DNA testing to proof their breed. I think it's by the 5th generation AKC would allow papers...(is that right?). How would they know the difference?

Nonetheless, I've put deposits down for two z-free puppies as there is no breeding debate on this. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
What is your overall want with this?

Why do you feel it is important to remove Z designation?

FYI dogs who are 'negative' for the dcm gene still die of dcm...
SieYa, you misunderstand my reason for posting. I do not feel it's important to remove Z designation. I was just curious how others felt on this topic. If a z-factored dog, and the off-spring for generations later, were all bred to quality, healthy, test-negative dogs (and I mean all the test available, etc.) it would stand to reason that the poor gene pool from the original z-factored dog would eventually work it's way out and the off-spring could be some of the healthiest of dobermans. But, for no fault of their own (or in this scenario for no fault of the breeders) they would still appear to some as "2nd rate" dobes. The thought of that just makes me a bit sad.

If anything, I would purpose keeping the z-registraiton as is, but allowing for some sort of indicator on papers noting they were test-negative. It seems breeders who do breed otherwise healthy z-factor dogs would be able to test negative and they and their dogs could earn a bit more credibility from the doberman community.

Just sayin.
 

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Reputable breeders do not breed Z factored dogs.
I am 99.999999999999999999999999% sure there are No breeders on the dpca or dpcc list with a Z factored dog. There's no point, no one will breed with you. So unless you're breeding your own dogs together (red flag #2) you can have a beautiful dog but no one will risk tainting their lines.
 

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Thanks all for your replies. I would have to agree most with River. Although, it still makes me raise an eyebrow to know that the AKC and DCPA aren't in total unison. I've read posts from those with strong beliefs that reputable breeders don't breed z-factor dogs, and yet AKC has awarded breeders who do have such dobermans, recognizing them for producing top-notch dogs.
the AKC is a registry service, nothing more. the DPCA, however, is not. the DPCA makes the rules about the breed and it's up to the AKC to follow them.
 

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Thanks all for your replies. I would have to agree most with River. Although, it still makes me raise an eyebrow to know that the AKC and DCPA aren't in total unison. I've read posts from those with strong beliefs that reputable breeders don't breed z-factor dogs, and yet AKC has awarded breeders who do have such dobermans, recognizing them for producing top-notch dogs.

It also seems that there would be a way to get the Z off the papers, by just not papering a few generations of pups and getting DNA testing to proof their breed. I think it's by the 5th generation AKC would allow papers...(is that right?). How would they know the difference?

Nonetheless, I've put deposits down for two z-free puppies as there is no breeding debate on this. ;)

The AKC is a registry only, and one that depends on registration fees for income. Follow the money. I know that sounds cynical (and it is), but the health of the individual breeds is not the number one priority for the AKC. They also register puppy mill dogs, and dogs from commerical breeders. That's something I found out when I worked at a pet store that sold puppies. I am not proud of doing that, but I was in college and I needed the job.

I agree that the AKC should not reward poor breeding practices and that they should follow the DPCA's lead for the Doberman by refusing to register Z-factored dogs. They won't do that, though. Their revenue is falling, and they don't want to lose more money by refusing to register any purebred dog. Doesn't matter who bred it, where it came from, etc.

The DPCA has more of a focus on the health of the Doberman breed, and they are not making money off of AKC puppy registrations.

Someone with more knowledge than me will probably know, but a DNA test isn't sufficient to be registered as a purebred dog. And as an ethical breeder, getting around the Z-registration by waiting a few generations and then trying to sneak the dogs back in... those dogs are still the product of lines that were bred for color, not health or temperament. And I still believe that those lines should not be included in anyone's breeding program.
 

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SieYa, you misunderstand my reason for posting. I do not feel it's important to remove Z designation. I was just curious how others felt on this topic. If a z-factored dog, and the off-spring for generations later, were all bred to quality, healthy, test-negative dogs (and I mean all the test available, etc.) it would stand to reason that the poor gene pool from the original z-factored dog would eventually work it's way out and the off-spring could be some of the healthiest of dobermans. But, for no fault of their own (or in this scenario for no fault of the breeders) they would still appear to some as "2nd rate" dobes. The thought of that just makes me a bit sad.

If anything, I would purpose keeping the z-registraiton as is, but allowing for some sort of indicator on papers noting they were test-negative. It seems breeders who do breed otherwise healthy z-factor dogs would be able to test negative and they and their dogs could earn a bit more credibility from the doberman community.

Just sayin.

Z factored dogs come out of albino dogs and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. With or without the gene, they are not improving the breed. Why would anyone think that they could improve the breed by breeding these dogs that were lined bred for color and by people that really did not care about anything but themselves

Z factor breeders will not have credibility by the Doberman community because they bred the Z factored dog knowing that they came from dogs with serious risk factors in health and they did not care. While health testing give us information, it does not give us everything. I support the DPCA and their lead.

The AKC is much more than just a registering club, they are the DPCA, and head of all national clubs through their delegates. These organizations do a lot of all dogs and are the tops in my view.
 

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The AKC is much more than just a registering club, they are the DPCA, and head of all national clubs through their delegates. These organizations do a lot of all dogs and are the tops in my view.
Yes, I know I'm cynical about the AKC. And I was wrong, they are more than just a registry. They do accept input from the breed clubs. But they are still dropping the ball, allowing Z-factored dogs to be registered.

Please disregard the "they're a breed registry only" statement I made. It was not corrrect.
 

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Nonetheless, I've put deposits down for two z-free puppies as there is no breeding debate on this. ;)
As an aside, are you saying you put deposits down to acquire two pups at once? If so, I can nearly guarantee you are not going through an ethical breeder. That's a huge red flag if they are willing to sell you littermates. Not recommended at all.
 

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SieYa, you misunderstand my reason for posting. I do not feel it's important to remove Z designation. I was just curious how others felt on this topic. If a z-factored dog, and the off-spring for generations later, were all bred to quality, healthy, test-negative dogs (and I mean all the test available, etc.) it would stand to reason that the poor gene pool from the original z-factored dog would eventually work it's way out and the off-spring could be some of the healthiest of dobermans. But, for no fault of their own (or in this scenario for no fault of the breeders) they would still appear to some as "2nd rate" dobes. The thought of that just makes me a bit sad.

If anything, I would purpose keeping the z-registraiton as is, but allowing for some sort of indicator on papers noting they were test-negative. It seems breeders who do breed otherwise healthy z-factor dogs would be able to test negative and they and their dogs could earn a bit more credibility from the doberman community.

Just sayin.
Any idiot that breeds Z-factored dogs deserves ZERO credibility. Removing the Z from their registration number in no way opens the door for credibility....now or ever.

These dogs came from generations of byb and should never be allowed to pollute the gene pool. Which means there are generations of piss poor conformation, health and temperament issues.

Let me put it bluntly..... BYB DOGS SHOULD NOT BE IN THE GENE POOL.
 

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As an aside, are you saying you put deposits down to acquire two pups at once? If so, I can nearly guarantee you are not going through an ethical breeder. That's a huge red flag if they are willing to sell you littermates. Not recommended at all.
To add to MeadowCat's comment, the reason ethical breeders do not place two puppies in one home is because they will bond to each other more than the owners that they are to protect. In addition, it is very hard for any home to train two dogs at once. It is just not what breeders that love the puppies want for their own puppies. When breeders place two together like this, either they don't know or don't care, both are no excuse.

I'm for the dogs all the way! I'd get my deposit back or let it go as a lesson learned. Better now than later. You absolutely support what you buy.
 

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Hi all,

I'm new to this site. I was doing research and came across information that VetGen has recently (within the last 6 months) announced a DNA test that indicates whether the albino gene is present in dobermans or not. Knowing the concerns of z-factored dogs, I thought to contact the AKC to see what they might do about the papers of any dogs that tested negative. They're response was:

Thanks for writing. I have spoken to management and was told, a request to consider the removal of the Z indicator from Doberman Pinscher registrations would need to come through the Doberman Pinscher Club of America.

Best regards,

Letrice
DNA Processor
AKC DNA Operations

I then contacted the DPCA about this and their response was:

Thank you for your inquiry. As Public Education Chair for the Doberman Pinscher Club of America (DPCA), I was forwarded your email for response by the DPCA Board of Directors.

The DPCA will continue to track all descendants of Padula's Queen Sheba through Z-registration. No descendants will be removed from this list even if they test negative for carrying the albino gene.

We hope we have answered your question adequately but please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,
Tammy Kaplan
Public Education Chair

My final question - whether the DCPA would change their bylaws/guides (whatever the correct term is) to allow breeding of z-registered dogs that test negative. Until I hear from them, I was hoping to generate some discussion on this topic. I have my opinions but haven't come to any conclusion on how I'd vote if asked. It would be interesting to hear what you all had to say.
The DPCA is the member club of the AKC and I doubt will ever release the Z factored label on these dogs because it is a clear label that shows they were bred by Albino breeders, and inbred for color and for the most part for money. Few, if any are structurally correct. No one that loves the breed, Ethical breeder do not want these inferior dogs in a breeding program, as while it may improve the z factor confirmation, it will not improve the breed and produce more inferior dogs. This is not the goal of improving. You can't start at the bottom and work up. Those that want to improve start with the best available.

While the Z is noted on their papers, it does not stop unethical breeders from breeding or trying to justify the health risks that the dogs behind them carry. I support the DPCA and their position 100%.
 
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