[VZ-Doberman]

I have a friend that has a dog that has been breaking start line waits a lot in competition, she fixed that by stopping him, picking him up and leaving the ring every time he broke a stay. It cost her a lot in entry fees with no runs, but at least he is cured of that habit now!

I feel her pain.....

We used to have a solid stay at the start. Then it stopped. He would begin creeping as I was walking away. I tried taking him off the course the second he began to move. I did this so many times I can't count. All to no avail. I have tried a new approach and will see if it has the desired effect at the end of the month.

 

[alwayshadpets]

I have a friend that has a dog that has been breaking start line waits a lot in competition, she fixed that by stopping him, picking him up and leaving the ring every time he broke a stay. It cost her a lot in entry fees with no runs, but at least he is cured of that habit now!

With BC`s I think this works because they truly are workaholics in agility (and some other breeds) . They hate not doing the game. I don`t think with the doberman as a breed this always works. Dobermans just think differently.

I think dobermans that do not hold the start line just do not like to be separated from their human (their job is to guard the body and if you aren`t close they are not happy.

I had this issue with Tamora for awhile. Than I had the opposite thing happen. She would stay at the start line and not leave unless I ran the start with her. Quite funny really. She was confused as to if this was a trick (to stay or leave, leave or stay).

I have since before the run checked the course to see if it was going to be a lead out or a run from the start. I take her to the practice jump. Put her in a stay, go back and feed, good stay. Than release with ok and reward in her reward zone (by my side). If it is a run from the start I practice giving the ok and running next to her over the practice jump and feeding at my side.
Knock on wood we have been doing ok at the start line again.

 

[mangujowa]

In my class, there's two different behaviors I've seen from dogs breaking their start line stays--there's a super drivey border terrier that will break and run its line through the course in front of him, and two very soft dogs (a BC and a chessie) that will break their stays to go straight to their handler.

 

[donnatoldu2]

Completely agree with the percentage break down of errors.

The times I've seen a dog do multiple bar drops it has been the dog's fault. They don't seem to be concerned with doing it correctly. I think there has not been enough emphasis on doing a good job as opposed to doing something incorrect that the handler readily accepts from the dog. As to the dog running past the obstacle, I am referring to the occasions when the dog sees the correctly given signal but simply prefers to ignore knowing that in the past it has been okay to run that way.

I believe if you are willing to accept a poor performance than that is what you will get from your dog. A good solid working dog is a pleaser.....show him what pleases you and you won't be disappointed and the dog will be happy and proud of his contribution to the Q.

Well the idea is not that u reward everything right or wrong. In training the errors should be ignored and the correct reinforced with reward. What is ignored is usually extinquished. What u see as rewarding mistakes at a trial should be because the mistakes were the handlers so why punish the dog. If I inadvertantly signal an off course should my dog be punished? When nerves are high then mistakes happen and the dog is high as well and cues quickly.

This is just my take on things after running agility for quite a while. People go into a trial and are high adrenalin or high nerves and honestly don't realize their very slight mistakes as to body language which we now know is the biggest part of what an agility dog reads..maybe ur eyes flicked to the off course tunnel..that can be enough to send a quick high energy dog into the tunnel. Then the handler who thinks they signaled correctly is frustrated and gives the dog the "I am disappointed in u " signal..whatever that individual does. For me that was the sigh. Anyways..a couple of runs later and the dog is shutting down. Oh he is stressed when I trial him. Why is that cause I never discipline him..really? Dogs are so superior to us in reading that body language that we often do them a disservice in our work. That is why many of the people I have trialed with if the dog takes an off course continue running as if it was correct. To the dog it was. It is the handler that needs the smack up side the head.

 

[donnatoldu2]

Also it is my experience that most dogs don't "blow" the handler off. If my dog listens in training and not at a trial it is my mistake. I didn't account for nerves and drive or we just weren't ready. People often trial way too early. It is not just the dog that needs to know what it is to do it is the handler to know how to control the nerves and walk the course well enough to not miscue or stress the dog. It is not going to happen overnite that the handler conquers their stress enough to let the dog do it's job but if a mistake is made in that situation don't add to it by stressing the dog further. Dogs that get the zoomies are not doing it because it is too much fun..they are usually avoiding stress.

 

[VZ-Doberman]

Also it is my experience that most dogs don't "blow" the handler off. If my dog listens in training and not at a trial it is my mistake. I didn't account for nerves and drive or we just weren't ready. People often trial way too early. It is not just the dog that needs to know what it is to do it is the handler to know how to control the nerves and walk the course well enough to not miscue or stress the dog. It is not going to happen overnite that the handler conquers their stress enough to let the dog do it's job but if a mistake is made in that situation don't add to it by stressing the dog further. Dogs that get the zoomies are not doing it because it is too much fun..they are usually avoiding stress.

The dogs I've seen blow off the handler are not always the inexperienced dogs in novice. For the past month I've sat at Dream Park every weekend and watched dogs run in excellent do this very thing. Usually I have a fast class at 7am and then my next class is hours later. I sit in the bleachers and watch the runs.....lots and lots of runs. So these are dogs that have tons of running under their belts. They've been running this particular arena numerous times throughout the year. People can call it nerves/avoiding stress/etc. but when the dog takes off and runs its own course completely disregarding the handler and then the dog is praised at the end of that disaster I think the handler is getting the level of performance he/she has earned. I understand that handlers make the majority of mistakes. But unless a dog understands that that kind of behavior is not good they will repeat it. A team works to cover each other in the ring. when the handler sends a mixed signal and the dog lines up on the wrong jump he should respond to a call off and continue with the run. I am a firm believer in communication verbal/body between the two team members when running. Saying "good boy" or "mommy's boy" tells your dog things are going well as well as saying "easy" or even "no" sends him the message to focus. Mistakes are made but the dog needs to know when there is an error made.

 

[VZ-Doberman]

Well the idea is not that u reward everything right or wrong. In training the errors should be ignored and the correct reinforced with reward. What is ignored is usually extinquished. What u see as rewarding mistakes at a trial should be because the mistakes were the handlers so why punish the dog. If I inadvertantly signal an off course should my dog be punished? When nerves are high then mistakes happen and the dog is high as well and cues quickly.

This is just my take on things after running agility for quite a while. People go into a trial and are high adrenalin or high nerves and honestly don't realize their very slight mistakes as to body language which we now know is the biggest part of what an agility dog reads..maybe ur eyes flicked to the off course tunnel..that can be enough to send a quick high energy dog into the tunnel. Then the handler who thinks they signaled correctly is frustrated and gives the dog the "I am disappointed in u " signal..whatever that individual does. For me that was the sigh. Anyways..a couple of runs later and the dog is shutting down. Oh he is stressed when I trial him. Why is that cause I never discipline him..really? Dogs are so superior to us in reading that body language that we often do them a disservice in our work. That is why many of the people I have trialed with if the dog takes an off course continue running as if it was correct. To the dog it was. It is the handler that needs the smack up side the head.

You can't blame bad handling for all errors. There are dogs who move from the handler and do their own thing for a bit. I don't believe it is stress or whatever....I think it is something the dog merely wants to do at that moment. Visiting a helper or taking a run at the judge is just what it looks like....fun. Taking a tunnel repeatedly is a blast. I also believe some handlers are quick to make excuses for the dog. What you see happening in the ring tends to happen during training. Some dogs are just unfocused and not the best workers. I am the first to take responsibility for handling errors. My motto is "we Q in spite of me". But on the other hand dogs will do what feels right at the moment and that includes doing their own thing. I never blame Bacchus for my mistakes (and there are plenty) but at the same time I don't get on him for his honest mistakes. I do let him know about his boo boos that are from showboating to the audience or sightseeing when running the course.

 

[VZ-Doberman]

About 3 or 4 weeks ago we were at an indoor trial and Bacchus was on the dog walk moving pretty fast. He fell. He was even with my head and out of the corner of my eye I saw him go off the other side of the dog walk head first. He had miss stepped with a front foot. He managed to twist during the fall and he landed squarely on his back. I could hear the thud. When I saw him falling I yelled "BACCHUS" and stopped. The judge came running over. I happened to have stopped close to the pause table and when poor Bacc jumped up he immediately hopped up on the table. He thought me yelling his name was to get him up on the table. He seemed ok so we continued the run faster than we had been running and did it cleanly. We didn't Q naturally, but I praised him as if we did.

Like I said, you reward the good behavior. His error was an honest one.

 

[donnatoldu2]

You can't blame bad handling for all errors. There are dogs who move from the handler and do their own thing for a bit. I don't believe it is stress or whatever....I think it is something the dog merely wants to do at that moment. Visiting a helper or taking a run at the judge is just what it looks like....fun. Taking a tunnel repeatedly is a blast. I also believe some handlers are quick to make excuses for the dog. What you see happening in the ring tends to happen during training. Some dogs are just unfocused and not the best workers. QUOTE]

I guess I really wasn't blaming bad handling for every error although I see it sounded like that..lol..but I do think stress is a factor. I also think if the dogs are doing it in training wtf are they doing at a trial. JMO but if my dog can't do it right in training and I can't do it right in training then what are we doing at a trial?

 

[VZ-Doberman]

You can't blame bad handling for all errors. There are dogs who move from the handler and do their own thing for a bit. I don't believe it is stress or whatever....I think it is something the dog merely wants to do at that moment. Visiting a helper or taking a run at the judge is just what it looks like....fun. Taking a tunnel repeatedly is a blast. I also believe some handlers are quick to make excuses for the dog. What you see happening in the ring tends to happen during training. Some dogs are just unfocused and not the best workers. QUOTE]

I guess I really wasn't blaming bad handling for every error although I see it sounded like that..lol..but I do think stress is a factor. I also think if the dogs are doing it in training wtf are they doing at a trial. JMO but if my dog can't do it right in training and I can't do it right in training then what are we doing at a trial?

I think for many people trialing isn't just about running and Qs. It expands into a social outlet and interaction between like minded people. So even if your dog is wild in the ring and not improving, it isn't your primary reason for being there.

Over a year ago I joined a training club. Really nice place with very helpful trainers. I only attended a few lessons because the club was about 50 miles away. While waiting for my first class with Bacchus I noticed a woman with a small cattle dog. That dog was fast! But not accurate. The owner was there for her private lesson and her big problem was the weaves. The dog simply could not get through them cleanly. That was last year. I have occasionally run into her at the trials since then and she is still having the same problem with weaves. I don't think I have ever seen her Q in excellent standard. I guess I am trying to say is that some handlers hope that if they enter a trial enough times, at some point the dog has got to Q.

Just a thought.....

 

[donnatoldu2]

The dogs I've seen blow off the handler are not always the inexperienced dogs in novice. For the past month I've sat at Dream Park every weekend and watched dogs run in excellent do this very thing. Usually I have a fast class at 7am and then my next class is hours later. I sit in the bleachers and watch the runs.....lots and lots of runs. So these are dogs that have tons of running under their belts. They've been running this particular arena numerous times throughout the year. People can call it nerves/avoiding stress/etc. but when the dog takes off and runs its own course completely disregarding the handler and then the dog is praised at the end of that disaster I think the handler is getting the level of performance he/she has earned. I understand that handlers make the majority of mistakes. But unless a dog understands that that kind of behavior is not good they will repeat it. A team works to cover each other in the ring. when the handler sends a mixed signal and the dog lines up on the wrong jump he should respond to a call off and continue with the run. I am a firm believer in communication verbal/body between the two team members when running. Saying "good boy" or "mommy's boy" tells your dog things are going well as well as saying "easy" or even "no" sends him the message to focus. Mistakes are made but the dog needs to know when there is an error made.

I think what I am trying to say is that at a trial is not the place for corrections but I see what u r saying about rewarding. The thing is I honestly don't believe a dog blows the handler off. If it appears to be doing that my assumption is a training relationship flaw. Don't get me wrong..I do corrections in my Schutzhund work and I taught my dog to handle a correction..he knows that when a correction is given he has to do it right and then the reward is even bigger. When I run agility in training I do tell him "too bad" and withhold reward. When I run a trial I know that we know how to do things and if he makes a mistake it is likely my mistake..either handling or I overfaced him in his abiltiy. Either way he gets no negative feedback and we go home and readdress our training issues.

The fact is that if people are trialing over and over again making the same mistakes and dogs are running their own courses they have not done their work at home. To run a dog after it has shown this behaviour is in my opinion training him to repeat this behaviour. I guess I agree that raving good dog is inappropriate when this is happening but I don't agree that dogs are doing this on purpose or to blow off the handler. I have worked many, many trials scribing and timing and I have to restrain myself from jumping up and yelling "U told him to go there why r u yelling at him now" or "Why do u even bring him here" or the famous "If I had to drag my dog around a course like that I would give it up". Honestly I am not the handler/trainer supreme but sitting in the ring scribing for the judge I see that if I was the dog I ofter would be outa there too.

For what it is worth I am not a totally positive trainer. I do a lot of withholding reward with a "too bad" marker and I will correct if I am sure he knows what I asked and for whatever reason (distraction) he didn't respond. I do not however believe he blows me off. If he is distracted my training needs to address that more. If I am nervy and he reacts to that my training needs to address that too...see where my mindset is. I am not saying everyone has to think this way it is just more imput to the training thoughts in this good thread.

 

[VZ-Doberman]

Another DT member and I have discussed the dog that has to be dragged around the ring. You can tell it just doesn't want to be there. It is merely going through the motions because its owner insists on doing agility. There is no joy or eagerness in the dog's performance. These are the dogs that will wander over to the ring exit and look wistfully at the crowd.

Then you have the dog on the other end of the spectrum. That's the wacko that comes into the ring barking and never shuts up. The handler sits the dog at the start and enters the course. The entire time the dog is frantically barking......with each bark its butt comes off the ground. When the signal is given the dog blasts past the handler and proceeds to demolish the course.....and happily. The handler attempts to call the dog and get some semblance of control but to no avail. The dog is like a spinning dervish. Then the judge gets fed up and whistles the the "team" off the course. This takes time since the handler has to corner the dog.

Gotta love it.

 

[donnatoldu2]

At least with that dog one could see if the training was right they would have fun..lol. I hate the cheerleaders and the dog trotting if lucky around the course..lol.
I had a male Zorro who had trouble holding his start line. Unfortunately the adrenalin when at a trial was when it showed up. We had fixed it at training..so I had to train at trials. I had to walk him off 80% of his courses for an entire season. Can u imagine what that would have cost if I hadn't had AAC and worked the trials for the entries? I guess that actually agrees to a certain extent with what u said..we didn't reward his breaking..I treated it like training and walked off not allowing him to run..it took a good number of trials to get him under control. Once he held his starts he ran like he was trained to run. We did a JWW at a Dobe National in 17.8 seconds..it was stunning.. when he was on he was on. I would rather deal with that enthusiasm to run than the consistent slow accurate dog. He was some trip to run with.
When the gate steward would say he was on deck u would hear people yelling to others to hurry cause Zorro was gonna run..everyone knew him. He didn't always do it right but he was always trying and was happy as all get out..lol.

 

[alwayshadpets]

The dogs I've seen blow off the handler are not always the inexperienced dogs in novice. For the past month I've sat at Dream Park every weekend and watched dogs run in excellent do this very thing. Usually I have a fast class at 7am and then my next class is hours later. I sit in the bleachers and watch the runs.....lots and lots of runs. So these are dogs that have tons of running under their belts.

Are these sanctioned trials every weekend you are watching or just classes?
Big difference if it is just classes. Kind of like dress rehearsals that look awful, but put on the real show and it is very well orchestrated. What you see is not very typical of what I see in my neck of the woods in sanctioned trials. (Midwest) Just curious.

Mach Olympia Tamora V Promise CDX NF
2011 National Agility Qualifier
CH Old Drum`s Double Red
Ready to compete in Obedience and Agility 2012

 

[VZ-Doberman]

Are these sanctioned trials every weekend you are watching or just classes?
Big difference if it is just classes. Kind of like dress rehearsals that look awful, but put on the real show and it is very well orchestrated. What you see is not very typical of what I see in my neck of the woods in sanctioned trials. (Midwest) Just curious.

Mach Olympia Tamora V Promise CDX NF
2011 National Agility Qualifier
CH Old Drum`s Double Red
Ready to compete in Obedience and Agility 2012

These are sanctioned akc trials. The runs range from 990 to 1150 per day with 3-4 judges.

Every weekend (mostly 3 day events but sometimes just a 2 day) there is mach after mach.

One of the girls got one a couple of weekends ago and I heard some people saying "those dobe people know how to put on a spread". When there is a mach, tables are set up with mach cakes, cookies, dips, just about anything and everything good to eat.

It's neat because some of the people who were running their dog at one trial are your judges at the next one.

 

[VZ-Doberman]

At least with that dog one could see if the training was right they would have fun..lol. I hate the cheerleaders and the dog trotting if lucky around the course..lol.
I had a male Zorro who had trouble holding his start line. Unfortunately the adrenalin when at a trial was when it showed up. We had fixed it at training..so I had to train at trials. I had to walk him off 80% of his courses for an entire season. Can u imagine what that would have cost if I hadn't had AAC and worked the trials for the entries? I guess that actually agrees to a certain extent with what u said..we didn't reward his breaking..I treated it like training and walked off not allowing him to run..it took a good number of trials to get him under control. Once he held his starts he ran like he was trained to run. We did a JWW at a Dobe National in 17.8 seconds..it was stunning.. when he was on he was on. I would rather deal with that enthusiasm to run than the consistent slow accurate dog. He was some trip to run with.
When the gate steward would say he was on deck u would hear people yelling to others to hurry cause Zorro was gonna run..everyone knew him. He didn't always do it right but he was always trying and was happy as all get out..lol.

I have been having the same problem with Bacchus. Last year it began and I talked with another dobe owner and she told me to pull him off the course the second he moved at the start. So we did. Frustrating to say the least. There was no improvement except when I began putting him in a down at the start. Then that went away. I think he wants so badly to get down to running that when I leave him and move out he just can't stand it. On those rare occasions we train he has a rock solid start. I think it is because he knows he has to stay. At a trial he knows what he can fudge on.

Agreed about the enthusiasm as opposed to dragging a slug around the ring.

 

[VZ-Doberman]

Forgot to add.....

On those occasions when I yanked his happy butt off the start line I would tell him all about it all the way back to the crate. Then the very next class we would run that day he would Q! When we would finish the course he would turn to me and would have this "ta da" look on his face and then body slam me. Then......all the way back to the crate he would prance and strut. This is a dog that knows.

 

[Jenny]

Vader on occasion will get "time outs" in training. He has a good start line though. He was all fired up in weave pole class the other night and was dancing around barking at me. Yes I did get in his way a little bit but not enough to get yelled at Anyways he was marched back to his crate in silence and no eye contact. Brought his back out after the other dog had a turn on the sequence and he was super the rest of the night. He loves the game but it isn't the same love the bcs have for the game. I think they need to get wild and crazy in training otherwise how can you correct behaviors that are not wanted but you may get in a trial situation. Does that make sense?

 

[VZ-Doberman]

Vader on occasion will get "time outs" in training. He has a good start line though. He was all fired up in weave pole class the other night and was dancing around barking at me. Yes I did get in his way a little bit but not enough to get yelled at Anyways he was marched back to his crate in silence and no eye contact. Brought his back out after the other dog had a turn on the sequence and he was super the rest of the night. He loves the game but it isn't the same love the bcs have for the game. I think they need to get wild and crazy in training otherwise how can you correct behaviors that are not wanted but you may get in a trial situation. Does that make sense?

I have noticed that sometimes all that speed and intensity could be a problem. By the time the handler sees something amiss, it can be too late to correct. I sat and watched the excellent standard class being run (20") one day and the course had a tunnel that exited immediately into the weaves. The entry to them was straight on. There seemed to be more bcs missing the first pole than any other dogs. I think when they came out of the tunnel they couldn't slow in time to hit the first pole. They would overrun it. They jumped in at the second one. I sometimes wonder if all the tugging and slinging prior to going in the ring could contribute to over the top enthusiasm.

 

[alwayshadpets]

These are sanctioned akc trials. The runs range from 990 to 1150 per day with 3-4 judges.

Every weekend (mostly 3 day events but sometimes just a 2 day) there is mach after mach.

One of the girls got one a couple of weekends ago and I heard some people saying "those dobe people know how to put on a spread". When there is a mach, tables are set up with mach cakes, cookies, dips, just about anything and everything good to eat.

It's neat because some of the people who were running their dog at one trial are your judges at the next one.

You are lucky to have AKC trials every weekend. I can see where a lot of Machs can come out of your area with trials every weekend. I prefer the 600 to 700 2 judge trials we have around here. The largest I ever go to (and I have to travel for it) is 1320 runs (4 judges). You are exhausted after this trial--long days. But it is on dirt and you gotta love the dirt.

Thanks for the info on how things are done in your neck of the woods. (I find it interesting) I guess you just have a lot of handlers in your area that are just rushing their dogs so they can trial. It`s fun to get out there and trial , but sometimes you pay too high a price in my opinion.