Thanks for the answers people! even if it isn't my thread
What a GREAT post!Matt this is for you.
In protection, you teach your dog that the MOST important thing in the world to it - is the tug-->sleeve-->bite suit, etc. Not a kinda important thing, not somewhat important. The MOST important. When my dog sees a tug, sleeve, bitesuit, I want him to lose his mind and all he can think about is "I NEED THAT NOW!!". In fact if I do my job right, and I train a correct word association, my dog will not need to see a sleeve or bitesuit. With a simple command from he, he will turn on for whatever I tell him (look up bart bellon's dog that does a blind search with no one on the blind).
If you build a dog to this level, do you honestly think, if you walk up and ask it ever so nicely, to out, that it will instantly release the thing it has worked so hard to get?
It has been proven (I think it was auburn??) that in dogs bred a certain way, when they are biting something, the brain releases seratonin. The feelings of satiation flood the body. To to the dog the ability to hang on to the bite is the ultimate reward (in dogs bred a certain way).
So asking it "nicely" doesn't work.
A tried and true method we use in ring is the two tug method. the dog is biting tug one, and you place tug two right in front of the dog, ask for the out and reward with play when the dog transfers. We do the same thing on the suit/sleeve. Initially the reward tug is shown to the dog right in front of its eyes on the suit/sleeve and rewarded with play when it transfers.
If you build a dog in balance (ie you build its drive for the bite and its obedience to the handler in tandem) you have a beautiful working dog, that loves to bite and is obedient. However even this balanced dog will need reminders, corrections/complusion along the way to remind him of the balance of bitework.
However there are many times dogs are built too high for the bite without balance. And there are many reasons why a person would do this, some good intentioned and some not so good intentioned, some on purpose and some not.
KNVP dogs in particular, get standing ovations when they do not out.
As well in bitework, you want to desensitize the dog to distractions but also to "objection" from the decoy. If you have a personal protection dog, and the bad guy yells, or hits the dog, and they let go and run away:
a) you are left to defend yourself
b) your dog could be potentially wrecked for life because it will believe it can't win - the dog always need to have an unshakable belief that they WILL beat whatever they come up against.
So in training you will get rough, you will yell, you will show the dog that things may get dicey but if they work thru it they win. In ring we actually train the dog that these things "ie stick hits" are what triggers the BIG win, so when a dog recieved a stick hit, it actually powers up because it knows that leads to ultimate satiation.
However showing the dog roughness, in an effort to ensure the dog never walks into a situation blind, it also desensitizes the dog to corrections. That added to the jacked up mental state of a dog doing bitework, usually means that the dog will need an increased correction to even feel it. It is an adrenelin rush for the dog.
I will say one thing about choking off a bite. I do it, I do it with young puppies, and sometimes with adult dogs lacking drive. And by "choking" I mean I hold it off its feet by a flat collar until it drops the object. Feet about an inch off the ground. Usually takes about 1-2 seconds, with a stubborn puppy maybe 3. WHY? Because amazingly enough this builds drive. Have you ever had someone hold you back from something you wanted? Someone holding you back makes you want that thing soooo much more. As soon as the puppy drops the toy they are IMMEDIATELY reengaged. When the puppy has a solid grasp of the "game" of tug work, maybe even sleeve work, then we teach them the two tug method, or guards with rebites. The dogs I have developed this way in my club are very balanced, solid workers with no issues with outs. However the choking out is never given a name, the two tug method gives the "out" command.
I used the same method with my adult dog to build drive for a reward tug in the presence of a decoy.
It is very easy for a person to "build" a monster, especially one that doesn't know any better. A dog that will withstand ANY correction with ANY device to bite. VERY VERY easy. I know because I have one, and I made him what he is - when I didn't know any better.
A good working dog has balance. A strong desire for the decoy and a strong desire to listen to the handler. If a dog is too worried about his handler, he will not be a good working dog either. First you build drive, then you add obedience.
One last note: I believe Sweden and Denmark have dobermann's in their military.
There is a story about Reinhard Lindner working a dog of his, that had difficulty outing. When someone sort of gave him a bit of crap about it he said, that's ok. This is a good dog, he would get 20 breedings. But a dog that is difficult for Rienhard Lindner to handle will get 50 breedings.KNVP dogs in particular, get standing ovations when they do not out.e BIG win, so when a dog recieved a stick hit, it actually powers up because it knows that leads to ultimate satiation. .
Reverse response reflex.Have you ever had someone hold you back from something you wanted? Someone holding you back makes you want that thing soooo much more. .
Very true. To take it even further, there are many dogs that have power. What is impressive however is when they have both power and control. I have had people send me video of dogs that show a lot of power but no control. My reaction is that when they can show that kind of power and also control then we really have something.A good working dog has balance. A strong desire for the decoy and a strong desire to listen to the handler. If a dog is too worried about his handler, he will not be a good working dog either. First you build drive, then you add obedience.
Actually, that's a really cool picture. And to me they kind of look like primitive Dobermans, not quite there yet but on the way. At least that's what they look like to me.Remember not all dogs were "purebred" back then. They were regional and bred to work, and whatever worked got bred. To me they look like docked swissy's or entelbauers.
Once again you hit the nail on the head here with this one. When my husband was a canine officer I asked the same question when he went down to get his GSD and then again when he was going threw training. And they all said in so many words what you stated.I think that everyone has stated some valid reasons. There isn't really just one single reason why you do not see Dobermans in police and military work.
Yes, it is harder and harder to find a Doberman with the temperament suited for the work. Most are too soft and the ones that aren't are not clear headed enough to be dependable wen you need them. From a business perspective, you can take 100 GSDs or Malis and out of that group you will have a higher success rate than with 100 Dobermans and it will likely take less time. I have seen many GSD trainers literally beat the training in them and they take it. A Doberman will shut down and not take abusive training as well GSDs. Malis, generally are more sentive than GSDs, but higher drive and can power through it better and have a faster recovery.
Dobermans can't take the heat or cold as well as the others. The longer coat actually insulates them from the heat as well as the cold.
GSDs have a much more soldier mentality. They follow orders better than Dobermans that may think for themselves too much.
I don't agree that "many more breeders valued the working temperament of the Malinios and German Shepherd Dog over the appearance, while on the other hand too many Dobermann breeders have valued the dog’s appearance over its working temperament." There is the same divide between the Working GSDs and Malis that there is in Dobermans. The GSD breed is just a much, much larger breed in numbers world-wide than Dobermans, so of course you will find more quality working dogs. Also, GSDs have dominated the working sports since their inception so their is a much, much larger pool to draw from. However, make no mistake this is not all GSDs. I have seen many show bred GSDs that were no better than show Dobermans on the working field, even import GSDs with alleged SCH titles that didn't seem to even know what a sleeve was. Malinois are the current darlings of the working sports and with their overall better physical soundness than GSDs I can see why. However, show Malinois and the working ones are so different they seem like a whole different breed in both look, size, and temperament. This is unfortunately the age of specialization in all endeavors. There are few dogs any more that can "do it all".
Only speaking of what I know from our local k9 officers (GSD & BMali) the dogs do not track off lead for a couple reasons:^^^^Grizzley1...thks for the story, great experiences shared...enjoyable read.
I once read that GSD's Police dogs are always on a leash while tracking a criminal...because they could run off at distractions, such as a cat or squirrel (in back yard) - sounds like incomplete OB training, to me.
- I always wondered why, their not doing police work off-leash some ??.
Mali's just happen to be the flavor of the day and have in some cases, at least up to just recent times, been able to be purchased cheaper than other working dogs. There are dogs with less than stellar nerves in any breed, especially if they come from crappy breeders. I would say this is much less common with a well bred West German working line GSD than most of the other working breeds, including the Doberman and the Mali. In general the GSD is still the best all around dog for k9 service work. I have a parent of a student of mine who handles a Mali for the Border Patrol. He tells me he much prefers the GSD for that type of work.Great topic ! From what I have read and have had people tell me is something a little different. I have been told that the GSD's tend to be fear biters and are a heavier dog for police, they now prefer the Mals or dutch shepherds. (not to offend GSD's in any way).
I would agree with this. While Malinois can be hard dogs, they can also be very sensitive. In my area I've noticed a lot of departments that had Malinois are moving back towards primarily having GSDs. While I think Malinois are absolutely suited for the work, I think the training and handling in LE (at least at the local PD level) isn't always particularly a good match for Malinois temperaments.Where was your department getting their GSD's? What I have witnessed has been very different as far as working dogs, except the GSD whining. I do agree mals seem to mature quicker. But what I have seen in terms of handling corrections and other aspects, not so much. I also would vehemently disagree about the GSD's taking direction. Again I would ask where they are coming from? It seems to me that many departments are quite indiscriminate in regards to where the dogs come from. If this is the case, at least for the moment, then Mali's are probably a better choice.
I agree to a certain extent, but the mals i worked with didn't shut down like the gsds and dobes, they tried to come up the leash once or twice but when they realized that wasn't going to change anything they just performed. I'd prefer that to the dogs that shut down and don't want to work for the rest of the day lolI would agree with this. While Malinois can be hard dogs, they can also be very sensitive. In my area I've noticed a lot of departments that had Malinois are moving back towards primarily having GSDs. While I think Malinois are absolutely suited for the work, I think the training and handling in LE (at least at the local PD level) isn't always particularly a good match for Malinois temperaments.