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Thanks for the answers people! even if it isn't my thread :D
 

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Matt this is for you.

In protection, you teach your dog that the MOST important thing in the world to it - is the tug-->sleeve-->bite suit, etc. Not a kinda important thing, not somewhat important. The MOST important. When my dog sees a tug, sleeve, bitesuit, I want him to lose his mind and all he can think about is "I NEED THAT NOW!!". In fact if I do my job right, and I train a correct word association, my dog will not need to see a sleeve or bitesuit. With a simple command from he, he will turn on for whatever I tell him (look up bart bellon's dog that does a blind search with no one on the blind).

If you build a dog to this level, do you honestly think, if you walk up and ask it ever so nicely, to out, that it will instantly release the thing it has worked so hard to get?

It has been proven (I think it was auburn??) that in dogs bred a certain way, when they are biting something, the brain releases seratonin. The feelings of satiation flood the body. To to the dog the ability to hang on to the bite is the ultimate reward (in dogs bred a certain way).

So asking it "nicely" doesn't work.

A tried and true method we use in ring is the two tug method. the dog is biting tug one, and you place tug two right in front of the dog, ask for the out and reward with play when the dog transfers. We do the same thing on the suit/sleeve. Initially the reward tug is shown to the dog right in front of its eyes on the suit/sleeve and rewarded with play when it transfers.

If you build a dog in balance (ie you build its drive for the bite and its obedience to the handler in tandem) you have a beautiful working dog, that loves to bite and is obedient. However even this balanced dog will need reminders, corrections/complusion along the way to remind him of the balance of bitework.

However there are many times dogs are built too high for the bite without balance. And there are many reasons why a person would do this, some good intentioned and some not so good intentioned, some on purpose and some not.

KNVP dogs in particular, get standing ovations when they do not out.

As well in bitework, you want to desensitize the dog to distractions but also to "objection" from the decoy. If you have a personal protection dog, and the bad guy yells, or hits the dog, and they let go and run away:

a) you are left to defend yourself
b) your dog could be potentially wrecked for life because it will believe it can't win - the dog always need to have an unshakable belief that they WILL beat whatever they come up against.

So in training you will get rough, you will yell, you will show the dog that things may get dicey but if they work thru it they win. In ring we actually train the dog that these things "ie stick hits" are what triggers the BIG win, so when a dog recieved a stick hit, it actually powers up because it knows that leads to ultimate satiation.

However showing the dog roughness, in an effort to ensure the dog never walks into a situation blind, it also desensitizes the dog to corrections. That added to the jacked up mental state of a dog doing bitework, usually means that the dog will need an increased correction to even feel it. It is an adrenelin rush for the dog.

I will say one thing about choking off a bite. I do it, I do it with young puppies, and sometimes with adult dogs lacking drive. And by "choking" I mean I hold it off its feet by a flat collar until it drops the object. Feet about an inch off the ground. Usually takes about 1-2 seconds, with a stubborn puppy maybe 3. WHY? Because amazingly enough this builds drive. Have you ever had someone hold you back from something you wanted? Someone holding you back makes you want that thing soooo much more. As soon as the puppy drops the toy they are IMMEDIATELY reengaged. When the puppy has a solid grasp of the "game" of tug work, maybe even sleeve work, then we teach them the two tug method, or guards with rebites. The dogs I have developed this way in my club are very balanced, solid workers with no issues with outs. However the choking out is never given a name, the two tug method gives the "out" command.

I used the same method with my adult dog to build drive for a reward tug in the presence of a decoy.

It is very easy for a person to "build" a monster, especially one that doesn't know any better. A dog that will withstand ANY correction with ANY device to bite. VERY VERY easy. I know because I have one, and I made him what he is - when I didn't know any better.

A good working dog has balance. A strong desire for the decoy and a strong desire to listen to the handler. If a dog is too worried about his handler, he will not be a good working dog either. First you build drive, then you add obedience.

One last note: I believe Sweden and Denmark have dobermann's in their military.
What a GREAT post!
 

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I concur
 

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KNVP dogs in particular, get standing ovations when they do not out.e BIG win, so when a dog recieved a stick hit, it actually powers up because it knows that leads to ultimate satiation. .
There is a story about Reinhard Lindner working a dog of his, that had difficulty outing. When someone sort of gave him a bit of crap about it he said, that's ok. This is a good dog, he would get 20 breedings. But a dog that is difficult for Rienhard Lindner to handle will get 50 breedings.

Have you ever had someone hold you back from something you wanted? Someone holding you back makes you want that thing soooo much more. .
Reverse response reflex.

A good working dog has balance. A strong desire for the decoy and a strong desire to listen to the handler. If a dog is too worried about his handler, he will not be a good working dog either. First you build drive, then you add obedience.

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Very true. To take it even further, there are many dogs that have power. What is impressive however is when they have both power and control. I have had people send me video of dogs that show a lot of power but no control. My reaction is that when they can show that kind of power and also control then we really have something.
 

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Cool

Remember not all dogs were "purebred" back then. They were regional and bred to work, and whatever worked got bred. To me they look like docked swissy's or entelbauers.
Actually, that's a really cool picture. And to me they kind of look like primitive Dobermans, not quite there yet but on the way. At least that's what they look like to me.
 

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My two cents

After reading many of these posts and a couple of the links, especially the one about training dogs and the different breeds. I got a say a lot of this doesn't make much sense. I've been lucky enough to have a dobie in my life for all 57 years of it and luckily I haven't had one that I wouldn't trust with my life. I don't remember the specifics of the dog I grew up with, but sparkle was the house dog and did her job very well. The only time she ever showed any aggression is when the neighborhood bully hit me with something I was young and this was the early 60s and went through the screen door to chase him back to his house, while leaving up a reminder of the encounter on his butt, when the police arrived and found out who was the encounter was dismissed. After Sparkle. My mother had a Cairn terrier, which was the most fearless animal I've ever seen, especially for a 20 pound dog. Towards the end of that dog's life. I bought Rhonda the absolute love of my life. I called a lot of breeders and specifically asked if they had a pup with feet like pancakes, and that in their opinion be too big to show which was probably the smartest thing to say as size did not matter to me, conformity, looks and breeding were much more important. This one on for a while until a woman said come on over I have your dog. I wasn't disappointed. Rhonda was the most regal looking dog I've ever owned the dog came with me everywhere I went, and bonding was taken to a completely different level. At that point in time I was a peace officer and was training with Warren Eckstein (look him up) who was one of the better trainers back then and was trying to get the Nassau County police contract and use my dog and four others from other small police departments as demo dogs in exchange for training. There were only two Doibes in this group. The other three were shepherds, these dogs performed unbelievably they were trained to track, crowd control, attack, obstacle course, and a few other things as far as there being the difference between shepherds and Dobermans. I didn't see any. Except for the bite shepherds have a different way of hitting the suit and the Dobermans had there's as far as tracking went. A dog will either use its nose or it won't Rhonda did and it was an amazing thing to see. As far as there being, shall we say, a competitive rivalry between shepherd people and Dobermans people. Of course there is, just as if you had a Ferrari and your neighbor had a Lamborghini, you would razz each other while still respecting each other's machine. For the life of me, the only thing that makes any sense to me is that shepherds are probably more comfortable for extended periods of time in the cold. Other than that they both work very well, although, of course, I think the Doberman wins hands down in the looks department, especially when you have a 115 pound female that is solid muscle. I had Rhonda for 11 years and then had put her down to cancer. Then I got Amber.
Amber had so much natural talent as far as aggressive behavior goes that once she was completely, and satisfactorily obedience trained that she needed very little instructions from me. At that point in time I had a liquor store and my customers loved her, although they were all used to Rhonda, Amber was a red and her yellowy eyes freaked out A few people but I still trusted her to socialize with my customers and their children and not worry at all the one strange trait she had, as mentioned in the article that someone gave a link to, her prey was cardboard boxes and could turn when the confetti in under a minute. Amber lived to 11 and then I have to put her down to a spinal cord injury. My avatar is Comet, she just turned 12. December 20 and is also hundred and 12 pounds of solid muscle and can still catch your average criminal. I think there aren't as many Dobermans in police work is there used to be due to lack of availability and as others have said too much breeding for show, I think that may be the biggest reason, as when Rhonda was a puppy, She won every show I had her in which was about 10 wins, until she got big. Then they said too big for a female which I think is nonsense. This is a working dog size shouldn't really enter into it, conformity should. When I can find a picture of her. I will post it. I think many of you will agree she was just magnificent. And the strange thing is, it seemed like she knew it. Just my two cents on the subject.
Thanks for putting up with the ramble.
 

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^^^^Grizzley1...thks for the story, great experiences shared...enjoyable read.

I once read that GSD's Police dogs are always on a leash while tracking a criminal...because they could run off at distractions, such as a cat or squirrel (in back yard) - sounds like incomplete OB training, to me.
- I always wondered why, their not doing police work off-leash some ??

Our dober girl is +4 months old now and I must say, Kelly is going to be a good watch dog - someone knocked on the front door yesterday and she was all bark & growl...More natural protective instincts, very early on, than our first 2 girls (while grown up Amy always looked out for and protected family, most excellent)...young Kelly had a stronger demeanour and higher pain threshold from day1, with lots of puppy confidence built in.
- from much litter mate rough play - with 8 other boys/girls vs. being puppy crated too much
I think how the pup turns out, has a lot to do with how the breeder interacts the litter in the last 4-5 weeks, after weined off mom and her milk.
 

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I can't say for certain, but any "tracking" dog that I know of is always leashed. AKC, Search and Rescue, etc. In terms of SAR they are off leash if they are doing HRD or area.
 

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Great topic ! From what I have read and have had people tell me is something a little different. I have been told that the GSD's tend to be fear biters and are a heavier dog for police, they now prefer the Mals or dutch shepherds. (not to offend GSD's in any way). As for the doberman, I was led to believe that when they were first introduced here they were built a whole lot different, not as elegant and lean and were alot more aggressive, sharp temperments, but, a whole lot more healthier too. A true working line of dog. People couldn't live or want a doberman because of this, not to mention they were not as hmm nice looking either. So the breeders tried to fix some of this, to make them more friendlier and livable for people, but by doing so, they have made them more fragile and have lost some of that drive or nerve of steel. Not to mention less healthier. So if this is true, then maybe the doberman as mentioned before does not do well changing handlers and are not as capable of taking commands. (just saying this was explained to me from breeders and a judge one time when I asked about dobermans)

In my town we have a canine unit and I will ask what types of dogs they use and why. I know that dobermans are not a popular breed here, but it will be interesting to see what they say. I live with a GSD, and I can say he is very clingy and kinda has some anxiety issues when left alone too long, but a real sweetheart. (hate the hair) LOL Maybe it is just a personal preference, or how bout cost too? Eveyone brought up some real valid points and opinions, maybe there is NO right or wrong or definate answer.
 

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I think that everyone has stated some valid reasons. There isn't really just one single reason why you do not see Dobermans in police and military work.

Yes, it is harder and harder to find a Doberman with the temperament suited for the work. Most are too soft and the ones that aren't are not clear headed enough to be dependable wen you need them. From a business perspective, you can take 100 GSDs or Malis and out of that group you will have a higher success rate than with 100 Dobermans and it will likely take less time. I have seen many GSD trainers literally beat the training in them and they take it. A Doberman will shut down and not take abusive training as well GSDs. Malis, generally are more sentive than GSDs, but higher drive and can power through it better and have a faster recovery.

Dobermans can't take the heat or cold as well as the others. The longer coat actually insulates them from the heat as well as the cold.

GSDs have a much more soldier mentality. They follow orders better than Dobermans that may think for themselves too much.

I don't agree that "many more breeders valued the working temperament of the Malinios and German Shepherd Dog over the appearance, while on the other hand too many Dobermann breeders have valued the dog’s appearance over its working temperament." There is the same divide between the Working GSDs and Malis that there is in Dobermans. The GSD breed is just a much, much larger breed in numbers world-wide than Doberman(n)s, so of course you will find more quality working dogs. Also, GSDs have dominated the working sports since their inception so their is a much, much larger pool to draw from. However, make no mistake this is not all GSDs. I have seen many show bred GSDs that were no better than show Dobermans on the working field, even import GSDs with alleged SCH titles that didn't seem to even know what a sleeve was. Malinois are the current darlings of the working sports and with their overall better physical soundness than GSDs I can see why. However, show Malinois and the working ones are so different they seem like a whole different breed in both look, size, and temperament. This is unfortunately the age of specialization in all endeavors. There are few dogs any more that can "do it all".
Once again you hit the nail on the head here with this one. When my husband was a canine officer I asked the same question when he went down to get his GSD and then again when he was going threw training. And they all said in so many words what you stated.
 

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^^^^Grizzley1...thks for the story, great experiences shared...enjoyable read.

I once read that GSD's Police dogs are always on a leash while tracking a criminal...because they could run off at distractions, such as a cat or squirrel (in back yard) - sounds like incomplete OB training, to me.
- I always wondered why, their not doing police work off-leash some ??.
Only speaking of what I know from our local k9 officers (GSD & BMali) the dogs do not track off lead for a couple reasons:

1. The officer needs to stay as close as possible to see the dogs reaction and read the dog. If its 20 yards ahead of them they may miss something the dog is clueing in or off. They work as a team, therefore need to stay as a team.

2. The officer needs to be able to react to and for the dog. They do not want a negative bite. The dog is all wired up and ready to catch the bad guy. The officer needs to determine if the suspect is a threat. Not the dog. In this day and age the criminal can sue the dept if the dog bites when there is not a "threat", "threat" being determined of course by a jury of peers, not someone out risking their life to save others.





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Great topic ! From what I have read and have had people tell me is something a little different. I have been told that the GSD's tend to be fear biters and are a heavier dog for police, they now prefer the Mals or dutch shepherds. (not to offend GSD's in any way).
Mali's just happen to be the flavor of the day and have in some cases, at least up to just recent times, been able to be purchased cheaper than other working dogs. There are dogs with less than stellar nerves in any breed, especially if they come from crappy breeders. I would say this is much less common with a well bred West German working line GSD than most of the other working breeds, including the Doberman and the Mali. In general the GSD is still the best all around dog for k9 service work. I have a parent of a student of mine who handles a Mali for the Border Patrol. He tells me he much prefers the GSD for that type of work.
 

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I have personally trained dobes, a mals, and gsds to perform police/military level K9 tasks. Although I love my dobe to death, i can tell you that if i had to do that level training 24/7 I would use a mal every time. Then a dobe, then a gsd. Dobe mature much more slowly than gsds and mals, so it takes significantly longer for them to be as proficient and reliable as the other breeds. Plus dobes tend to be a bit softer and don't handle the corrections as well. Although they are tough as nails in protection, they tend to take handler corrections more personally. GSDs mature more quickly than dobes, but dear god are they whiney. They choose when and where they want to work, and have a tendency to protest if they don't see anything in it for them. Or they see everything is for them, and can't focus lol. They're also a bit slower and more methodical when they work. Mals mature very quickly, more so than any breed I've worked with. They work just for the sake of working, and they don't shut down with corrections. They're excellent problem solvers, like dobes are, but without the sensitivity. So imo, originally gsds replaced dobes because they mature more quickly and aren't as soft. Now mals are starting to replace the gsds because they're the better option.
 

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Where was your department getting their GSD's? What I have witnessed has been very different as far as working dogs, except the GSD whining. I do agree mals seem to mature quicker. But what I have seen in terms of handling corrections and other aspects, not so much. I also would vehemently disagree about the GSD's taking direction. Again I would ask where they are coming from? It seems to me that many departments are quite indiscriminate in regards to where the dogs come from. If this is the case, at least for the moment, then Mali's are probably a better choice.
 

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Where was your department getting their GSD's? What I have witnessed has been very different as far as working dogs, except the GSD whining. I do agree mals seem to mature quicker. But what I have seen in terms of handling corrections and other aspects, not so much. I also would vehemently disagree about the GSD's taking direction. Again I would ask where they are coming from? It seems to me that many departments are quite indiscriminate in regards to where the dogs come from. If this is the case, at least for the moment, then Mali's are probably a better choice.
I would agree with this. While Malinois can be hard dogs, they can also be very sensitive. In my area I've noticed a lot of departments that had Malinois are moving back towards primarily having GSDs. While I think Malinois are absolutely suited for the work, I think the training and handling in LE (at least at the local PD level) isn't always particularly a good match for Malinois temperaments.
 

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Higher level OB, practical agi, scent work, tracking, protection etc. I remember the sheps being a pain in the ass as pups, the dobes were butt hurt a lot, and the mals got it all done asap. my personal mal passed a sch2 ob routine at 6 months with a 92. mock trail of course, but still impressive for his age. i have since sold him to a security firm for narc. now i just have the dobe and focus on pet training.
 

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I would agree with this. While Malinois can be hard dogs, they can also be very sensitive. In my area I've noticed a lot of departments that had Malinois are moving back towards primarily having GSDs. While I think Malinois are absolutely suited for the work, I think the training and handling in LE (at least at the local PD level) isn't always particularly a good match for Malinois temperaments.
I agree to a certain extent, but the mals i worked with didn't shut down like the gsds and dobes, they tried to come up the leash once or twice but when they realized that wasn't going to change anything they just performed. I'd prefer that to the dogs that shut down and don't want to work for the rest of the day lol
 
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