Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner
1 - 20 of 61 Posts

Registered
Joined
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So when did your large dog breeds stop growing? Mine is eight months and according to her breeder will finish growing in height at two years and weight at three years. Her head is already as tall as the bathroom counter so I guess I鈥檓 wondering what to be prepared for? 馃槄 LOL. She鈥檚 a working line GSD and her mom was seventy five lbs and dad was sixty five, but her dad was very long legged and the breeder has had 100 lb + pups come from her dogs before. The rate mines growing I鈥檓 guessing she鈥檒l be around 80, she鈥檚 over fifty now.

edit to add: SCROLL DOWN FOR PICS 馃榿
 

Super Moderator
Hairy Dog RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Joined
28,593 Posts
Mine tended to be done with the height about 8-9 months, and at full mature weight by 2-21/2 years. Once they finished growing in height, they usually added about 5-10 pounds as they matured.

That can vary breed to breed, or even dog to dog, though. Your breeder may be able to tell you whether her lines, and your dog's parents matured quickly, or later--that can have some predictive value for your pup's growth rate.

Aside from that...I guess you'll know when he's done when he's done. :)
 

Premium Member
Joined
11,777 Posts
I don't always rely on asking a breeder how big she thinks a puppy may grow--I know some breeders who tailor their answers to what they think the potential new owner of a puppy wants to hear.

My first resource (and that was true even when I knew very little about my breed of choice--a Doberman) was to find an AKC "Complete Dog Book and see what the official standard said--are they a dog measured by adult weight or by adult size?

So GSD' s like Dobes are measured at the shoulder and females should be 22" to 24". You don't measure them to the top of their head.

In some breeds the working line dogs tend to be smaller than the show line dogs. I know this is true of Dobes. In some breeds the working dog may be taller than the show line dogs (this is true of Labs and in recent years some of the show line breeders have had problems with their dogs not reaching the preferred heights--Labrador retriever males should be 22-1/2" to 24-1/2" for males; bitches should be 21-1/2" to 23-1/2")

In Dobes most of my males have reached their full height at around 14 months. The slowest of them was a dog who finished growing when he was 18 months at 27--1/2". But my fawn boy was 28" when he was in 6-9 puppy classes he put on another 1/2 inch between 9 and 12 months and filled out to his mature weight and shape when he was around 3 years.

And I never try to go by weight when it comes to big dogs--there are weight restrictions for a number of smaller breeds but most of the larger breeds go by shoulder height.

Judging by the inability of most people to accurately guess either height or weight of a dog they are looking at I rarely believe the people who tell me their uncle had a Dobe who weighed 120 pounds (for one thing most Dobes who are more than 90 pounds are fat but the owners always insist that the dog is in perfect muscular shape.

So I'd try to get an accurate measurement of your bitch at the top of her shoulder. I'm not saying your breeder doesn't know what she's talking about but I have known several GSD's breeders--mostly show line breeders and have seen enough of their puppies grow from new born's to adults to think that what you've been told is kind of off. Most of the GSD puppies had their full height by the time they were 14 or 15 months--especially the bitches--in both Dobes an GSD's bitches generally have most of their height within 3 to 5 months of their first season. After that they fill out. Males tend to grow taller longer. And I'd agree that most males of both breeds aren't fully mature until around 3 years but I think more of the bitches (both breeds) tend to look fully mature at around 2 years.

If your puppy is over 50 pounds at 8-1/2 months I wouldn't think she'd be much more than another 20 pounds more at maturity.

But I'll be the first to admit I know about puppy to adult weights in Dobes than in GSD's.

dobebug
 

Registered
Joined
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Mine tended to be done with the height about 8-9 months, and at full mature weight by 2-21/2 years. Once they finished growing in height, they usually added about 5-10 pounds as they matured.

That can vary breed to breed, or even dog to dog, though. Your breeder may be able to tell you whether her lines, and your dog's parents matured quickly, or later--that can have some predictive value for your pup's growth rate.

Aside from that...I guess you'll know when he's done when he's done. :)
Well considering her dad is STILL GROWING at six years old, I guess they would be long growing. 馃槀
 

Registered
Joined
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I don't always rely on asking a breeder how big she thinks a puppy may grow--I know some breeders who tailor their answers to what they think the potential new owner of a puppy wants to hear.

My first resource (and that was true even when I knew very little about my breed of choice--a Doberman) was to find an AKC "Complete Dog Book and see what the official standard said--are they a dog measured by adult weight or by adult size?

So GSD' s like Dobes are measured at the shoulder and females should be 22" to 24". You don't measure them to the top of their head.

In some breeds the working line dogs tend to be smaller than the show line dogs. I know this is true of Dobes. In some breeds the working dog may be taller than the show line dogs (this is true of Labs and in recent years some of the show line breeders have had problems with their dogs not reaching the preferred heights--Labrador retriever males should be 22-1/2" to 24-1/2" for males; bitches should be 21-1/2" to 23-1/2")

In Dobes most of my males have reached their full height at around 14 months. The slowest of them was a dog who finished growing when he was 18 months at 27--1/2". But my fawn boy was 28" when he was in 6-9 puppy classes he put on another 1/2 inch between 9 and 12 months and filled out to his mature weight and shape when he was around 3 years.

And I never try to go by weight when it comes to big dogs--there are weight restrictions for a number of smaller breeds but most of the larger breeds go by shoulder height.

Judging by the inability of most people to accurately guess either height or weight of a dog they are looking at I rarely believe the people who tell me their uncle had a Dobe who weighed 120 pounds (for one thing most Dobes who are more than 90 pounds are fat but the owners always insist that the dog is in perfect muscular shape.

So I'd try to get an accurate measurement of your bitch at the top of her shoulder. I'm not saying your breeder doesn't know what she's talking about but I have known several GSD's breeders--mostly show line breeders and have seen enough of their puppies grow from new born's to adults to think that what you've been told is kind of off. Most of the GSD puppies had their full height by the time they were 14 or 15 months--especially the bitches--in both Dobes an GSD's bitches generally have most of their height within 3 to 5 months of their first season. After that they fill out. Males tend to grow taller longer. And I'd agree that most males of both breeds aren't fully mature until around 3 years but I think more of the bitches (both breeds) tend to look fully mature at around 2 years.

If your puppy is over 50 pounds at 8-1/2 months I wouldn't think she'd be much more than another 20 pounds more at maturity.

But I'll be the first to admit I know about puppy to adult weights in Dobes than in GSD's.

dobebug
She鈥檚 still growing like a weed and over 24鈥 at the shoulder. I keep track of that more than her weight honestly! When we switched to new food she started putting on up to two inches in height a week. The knots of bone on her knees are still massive and her paws look like a Dane puppies when they are little, totally huge for the body. So I don鈥檛 think she鈥檚 done yet! She鈥檚 eight months now. I was surprised how big she was supposed to be bc when I first met the parents and saw the puppies at three days old the breeder said she鈥檇 be smaller. But then I visited her and at five weeks the breeders said 鈥測ours is gonna be massive.鈥 I was like 馃槄馃槄馃槄 Dodnt really WANT massive but ok lol
 

Premium Member
Joined
11,777 Posts
She鈥檚 still growing like a weed and over 24鈥 at the shoulder. I keep track of that more than her weight honestly! When we switched to new food she started putting on up to two inches in height a week. The knots of bone on her knees are still massive and her paws look like a Dane puppies when they are little, totally huge for the body. So I don鈥檛 think she鈥檚 done yet! She鈥檚 eight months now. I was surprised how big she was supposed to be bc when I first met the parents and saw the puppies at three days old the breeder said she鈥檇 be smaller. But then I visited her and at five weeks the breeders said 鈥測ours is gonna be massive.鈥 I was like 馃槄馃槄馃槄 Dodnt really WANT massive but ok lol
Make sure you are measuring her accurately. If you don't have a wicket or can't borrow one stand her in a doorway. Make sure that her front legs are directly under her shoulders and make a mark on the door way with a pencil. Then measure to the pencil mark.

Coated dogs (like GSD's) often look heavier boned that they actually are because of the amount of coat on the legs.

Growing over 2 inches a week is shocking--putting on over two pounds a week is something that a lot of male big dog puppies do but unless your puppy was very soft of pastern before you changed her food and actually measured her that is a huge amount of height and you would not generally see that much of an increase in a week even in a big dog puppy.

It'll be interesting to see what her size ends up.

dobebug
 

Registered
Joined
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Make sure you are measuring her accurately. If you don't have a wicket or can't borrow one stand her in a doorway. Make sure that her front legs are directly under her shoulders and make a mark on the door way with a pencil. Then measure to the pencil mark.

Coated dogs (like GSD's) often look heavier boned that they actually are because of the amount of coat on the legs.

Growing over 2 inches a week is shocking--putting on over two pounds a week is something that a lot of male big dog puppies do but unless your puppy was very soft of pastern before you changed her food and actually measured her that is a huge amount of height and you would not generally see that much of an increase in a week even in a big dog puppy.

It'll be interesting to see what her size ends up.

dobebug
She had very weak bones and stuff before we changed her food if that had anything to do with it.
 

Registered
Joined
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Make sure you are measuring her accurately. If you don't have a wicket or can't borrow one stand her in a doorway. Make sure that her front legs are directly under her shoulders and make a mark on the door way with a pencil. Then measure to the pencil mark.

Coated dogs (like GSD's) often look heavier boned that they actually are because of the amount of coat on the legs.

Growing over 2 inches a week is shocking--putting on over two pounds a week is something that a lot of male big dog puppies do but unless your puppy was very soft of pastern before you changed her food and actually measured her that is a huge amount of height and you would not generally see that much of an increase in a week even in a big dog puppy.

It'll be interesting to see what her size ends up.

dobebug
Thought I鈥檇 include her growth chart so far. I can鈥檛 lift her anymore so I know she鈥檚 over fifty lbs, and she won鈥檛 be getting weighed that much now.

8 lbs- 6/3/21 (8 weeks)
9.4 lbs- 6/11/21 (9 weeks)
12.4lbs 6/18/21 (10 weeks)
14.6 lbs 6/24/21 (11 weeks)
17.4 6/29/21
19.8 7/8/21 (13 weeks)
23 lbs 7/15/21. 16 1/2鈥 tall
24.6 Lbs 7/24/21 (15 weeks) 18 1/2鈥 tall
24.6 lbs 7/31/21 (four months)
26.8 lbs 8/6/21
27.2 lbs 8/8/21
30.8 lbs 8/17/21
32.2 lbs 8/22/21
32.8 lbs 9/4/21
33 lbs 9/16/21
36.6 lbs 10/8/21
40.8 Lbs 10/24/21. 21鈥
23鈥 11/5/21
47.4 lbs 11/28/21
24鈥 12/30/21
 

Premium Member
Joined
11,777 Posts
About her size again--I see from the recent pictures that her pasterns are very straight. From the AKC GSD standard: "The forelegs viewed from all sides are straight and the bone is oval rather than round The pasterns are strong and springy and angulated at approximately 25-degree angle from the vertical"

I think that perhaps the change in food caused a change in the carpus joint itself--and that's where most the apparent 2" difference in height came from or, the other possiblity is that she wasn't entirely over her front when you measured her at 21"

The GSD standard describes the foot on a shepherd as "short, compact with toes well arched" while this does describe a round rather than an oval foot it's worth noting that when an AKC standard describes a dog as having a cat foot that's usually how it is described. Several of the terrier breeds have feet described as "round, small and catlike". And several of the sight hounds have feet described as both long and wide and large with toes well arched and very thick pads.

Most of the GSD's tend to have feet that are fairly big when compared to the size of the dog but would not generally be regarded as a "cat" foot.

Looking at these pictures it doesn't look to me like she's got a lot of bone (at the carpus/knee) to grow into and her feet don't look huge--in fact the bone and substance as well as the foot size pretty much looks like an adult shepherd. The fact the GSD's are supposed to have oval rather than round bone (like Dobes) makes them look heavy boned if examined from the side. The hair just adds more to that appearance.

I don't know--except for the straight pastern she doesn't look like she's huge now or going to be huge in the future. But I know a lot more about Dobe puppies (especially the males) than I do about GSD puppy bitches.

Happy New Year--wow and the sun just came out!

dobebug
 

Got mutt?
Leo, Lily, and Simon
Joined
14,411 Posts
Make sure you are measuring her accurately. If you don't have a wicket or can't borrow one stand her in a doorway. Make sure that her front legs are directly under her shoulders and make a mark on the door way with a pencil. Then measure to the pencil mark.

Coated dogs (like GSD's) often look heavier boned that they actually are because of the amount of coat on the legs.

Growing over 2 inches a week is shocking--putting on over two pounds a week is something that a lot of male big dog puppies do but unless your puppy was very soft of pastern before you changed her food and actually measured her that is a huge amount of height and you would not generally see that much of an increase in a week even in a big dog puppy.

It'll be interesting to see what her size ends up.

dobebug
True that.... Leo is massive if you just look at her. The reality is that she's 22.5 to 23 inches (just measured her again) and weighs between 50 and 55 pounds.

2021-4-29 Boardwalk and Ship Channel DSC_0038 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

For reference, Simon is 24-ish inches tall and 45-ish (when last weighed, at least) pounds.

2021-12-16 Simon & See-See DSC_6799 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

Leo doesn't look nearly as large when they are next to each other.

2021-12-9 Dogs DSC_6502 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr
 
  • Like
Reactions: dobebug and melbrod

Registered
Joined
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
About her size again--I see from the recent pictures that her pasterns are very straight. From the AKC GSD standard: "The forelegs viewed from all sides are straight and the bone is oval rather than round The pasterns are strong and springy and angulated at approximately 25-degree angle from the vertical"

I think that perhaps the change in food caused a change in the carpus joint itself--and that's where most the apparent 2" difference in height came from or, the other possiblity is that she wasn't entirely over her front when you measured her at 21"

The GSD standard describes the foot on a shepherd as "short, compact with toes well arched" while this does describe a round rather than an oval foot it's worth noting that when an AKC standard describes a dog as having a cat foot that's usually how it is described. Several of the terrier breeds have feet described as "round, small and catlike". And several of the sight hounds have feet described as both long and wide and large with toes well arched and very thick pads.

Most of the GSD's tend to have feet that are fairly big when compared to the size of the dog but would not generally be regarded as a "cat" foot.

Looking at these pictures it doesn't look to me like she's got a lot of bone (at the carpus/knee) to grow into and her feet don't look huge--in fact the bone and substance as well as the foot size pretty much looks like an adult shepherd. The fact the GSD's are supposed to have oval rather than round bone (like Dobes) makes them look heavy boned if examined from the side. The hair just adds more to that appearance.

I don't know--except for the straight pastern she doesn't look like she's huge now or going to be huge in the future. But I know a lot more about Dobe puppies (especially the males) than I do about GSD puppy bitches.

Happy New Year--wow and the sun just came out!

dobebug
I鈥檝e made her do a square stack every time I鈥檝e measured her and put a ruler over the top to get the right height without the floof, so the measurements are as accurate as I could get! Her legs are straighter than breed standard, standard AKC have the slanted 鈥渞amp back鈥, but I agree with a lot of the other GSD breeders that the extreme sloping back is not healthy for the hips so I purposely got a straight back 鈥渙ld time鈥 one like the original German Shepherd. Her feet don鈥檛 show up as big in pics as they do in real life and they are continually getting bigger and out of proportion, then back to proportional as she grows more so it鈥檚 very hard for me to get good pictures Sorry 馃槓 I鈥檒l keep updating this thread with more pics as she gets bigger! I don鈥檛 care too much how big she鈥檚 gonna be, it鈥檚 just be nice to be prepared lol 馃槃
 

Got mutt?
Leo, Lily, and Simon
Joined
14,411 Posts
A straight back and a sloping topline aren't the same thing. This is from the AKC standard: "Topline - The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short." Are a lot of American show line dogs of the more extreme side of sloping topline? You bet, mainly because of the philosophy of "if a little bit is good, then more is better" that seems to affect just about every breed.
 

Registered
Joined
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
A straight back and a sloping topline aren't the same thing. This is from the AKC standard: "Topline - The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short." Are a lot of American show line dogs of the more extreme side of sloping topline? You bet, mainly because of the philosophy of "if a little bit is good, then more is better" that seems to affect just about every breed.
Dog German shepherd dog Carnivore Dog breed Old german shepherd dog

this is the kind of show standard winning dogs I meant she isn鈥檛 like, and why her patterns are straight instead of as described in the standard. I personally think it looks disgusting, but I am also the kind of person who would love squish faced breeds to be bred to have enough of a nose to be able to breath decent. I meant to put this as a separate comment on this thread to add pics but it wants to do a reply? Ok I guess I鈥檒l roll with it 馃槄
 

Premium Member
Joined
11,777 Posts
I鈥檝e made her do a square stack every time I鈥檝e measured her and put a ruler over the top to get the right height without the floof, so the measurements are as accurate as I could get! Her legs are straighter than breed standard, standard AKC have the slanted 鈥渞amp back鈥, but I agree with a lot of the other GSD breeders that the extreme sloping back is not healthy for the hips so I purposely got a straight back 鈥渙ld time鈥 one like the original German Shepherd. Her feet don鈥檛 show up as big in pics as they do in real life and they are continually getting bigger and out of proportion, then back to proportional as she grows more so it鈥檚 very hard for me to get good pictures Sorry 馃槓 I鈥檒l keep updating this thread with more pics as she gets bigger! I don鈥檛 care too much how big she鈥檚 gonna be, it鈥檚 just be nice to be prepared lol 馃槃
Rosemary has included the explanation on the difference between a straight back and a sloped back according to the GSD standard. You might be surprised at the number of fairly moderate GSD's that show in AKC shows and win--they don't look anything like the one you have pictured (although I've seen plenty like that one in the ring. They don't win a lot because most of the GSD judges want to see a perfect mover and dogs like the one you found a shot of are generally terrible movers.

The showline dogs are still more extreme than I like but not as extreme as the guy in your picture. But I've been watching AKC breeds for so long I remember the big winners of the 60's who were not at all extreme but were wonderful movers and I saw GSD's imported from Germany in the 60's who were stunning.

As far as your puppy goes--it's not that her legs are straighter--it's that the pastern angle is incorrect. Rosemary's Leo has a more correct pastern.

Comparing breed similarities and differences is always interesting. And if you go back and look at the background of the breed it starts to become apparent why some of the differences are present in breeds that were intended for different purposes.

It's hard when someone looks at the standard and says they don't like the standard because the breeders produce extremes. Pasterns are kind of a good example--almost none of the very radical looking GSD's have really outrageous looking pasterns. But the standard, not just for the GSD but for almost every breed in the Herding Group are designed to trot. And to be able to keep it up for hours. Almost all of them are supposed to be longer than they are tall--because a slightly longer dog can usually produce that effortless trot and keep it up as long as necessary. And most of them have slightly angled pasterns. For that matter even Doberman are supposed to have a slight angle at the pastern--if they don't have it they will be less agile and much more prone to front end damage if doing any working.

My Aussie could trot and could keep up with the Dobermans--not always at their side but short backed gallopers like Dobermans don't run all out all of the time and the Aussie could keep the fast trot going, just as GSD's can far longer than the Doberman can keep up an extended gallop.

And lord knows that when it comes to American taste in almost everything--it's enough to drive you up the wall when you realize that you've just discovered that your breeder who you thought was pretty good until she suddenly told you she'd really like to have the height of a male Doberman to be 28" to 30". Bigger is NOT always better. In fact--there are some pretty good arguments around which establish that more, is not always better.

dobebug
 

Registered
Joined
467 Posts
I documented Bella's growth on another forum profile. She is likely 1/2dobie 1/2 lab and her adult height is 26". Bella [email protected] 11 months old>48 lbs 10-31-12 ,,1 year old>58 lbs 1/8/13 ,, 20 months> 65 lbs 8-1-2013,, 23 months> 68 lbs 11-1-2013 ,,2 years 3 months> 72 lbs 3/27/14,, 75 lbs 9/9/14. She has maintained a slim, svelte and muscled figure at 75 lbs her life long until now she is almost 10.
 

Registered
Joined
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Dog German shepherd dog Window Dog breed Carnivore

This is her before I changed her food. Her legs look about the same. When u say pastern are u talking about her front ankles? Bc my brain was going to her back leg curved bone/femur/ whatever they call it. Biology isn't my thing in case you can't tell. Which her back legs aren't curved like a slanted back dog, they are straight. That's what I was talking about. As far as running goes, she spends the entire day running. Literally. My Aussie was more of a trotter than she is, Arrow tends to go full throttle pedal to the medal all the time. I don't think she knows how to WALK lol. I really don't care if she is breed standard or not. I like her looks. I'm just wanting to know what age other people's dogs reached their mature height for reference 馃槉
 

Registered
Joined
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I documented Bella's growth on another forum profile. She is likely 1/2dobie 1/2 lab and her adult height is 26". Bella [email protected] 11 months old>48 lbs 10-31-12 ,,1 year old>58 lbs 1/8/13 ,, 20 months> 65 lbs 8-1-2013,, 23 months> 68 lbs 11-1-2013 ,,2 years 3 months> 72 lbs 3/27/14,, 75 lbs 9/9/14. She has maintained a slim, svelte and muscled figure at 75 lbs her life long until now she is almost 10.
Thank you for the growth chart! I expecting Arrow I'll reach 75-80 lbs the way she's going. She's got some filling out to do yet, still very much a puppy lol.
 

Got mutt?
Leo, Lily, and Simon
Joined
14,411 Posts
Canine conformation (photo borrowed from the Pure Dog Talk podcast's website). Dogs have front and rear pasterns. The front pastern is from the "wrist" to the foot, and the hind pastern is from the hock to the foot.

Working animal Jaw Horse Gesture Line


Your girl is lacking in rear angulation through the stifle (knee), but has a lot of angulation at the hock. She is also extremely cow hocked (her hocks turn in towards each other) in these pictures. Leo is also cow hocked, but not as much.
 
  • Like
Reactions: melbrod

Registered
Joined
300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Canine conformation (photo borrowed from the Pure Dog Talk podcast's website). Dogs have front and rear pasterns. The front pastern is from the "wrist" to the foot, and the hind pastern is from the hock to the foot.

View attachment 144149

Your girl is lacking in rear angulation through the stifle (knee), but has a lot of angulation at the hock. She is also extremely cow hocked (her hocks turn in towards each other) in these pictures. Leo is also cow hocked, but not as much.
Yeah I don't like her cow hocks, but she had a hip injury as a puppy and I think that was part of that. Doesn't seem to bother her so I stopped worrying about it.
Edit: looked into the cowhocks in GSDs. Looks like a lot of them outgrow it after a year old according to some breeders, so I'm not gonna worry about it, who cares. Just to make things clear, she isn't pedigreed papered. Her grandparents were, but my breeder was not able to get the papers for her dogs as their breeder died suddenly and the children were not helpful. Anyone want to chime in with some ages their pups reached maturity? That was my question, not if she is Breed Standard. I didn't buy her for that.
 
1 - 20 of 61 Posts
Top