Whats everyones problem with Altobello??

PatchworkRobot

· #2 · Nov 3, 2011 (Edited)

I think that a lot of it is due to the fact that their dogs become "international champion imports" or whatever that BYBs use to try to make their program sound good.

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As a member od DPCA we have been having a discussion on breeding and breeders and it has been a real eye opener. Some of these folks had 50 to 100 dogs. Kennels - why because they are breeders. They worked hard to develop their lines and they kept a kennel where they could pull from their own stock for breeding. They is why the older kennels had dogs that had a definite look of type to them. See the dog and you knew where they came from.

Today PETA and HSUS have pretty much convinced everyone that breeding is wrong so everyone believes because they only have one or two couch potatos that is all breeders should have too.

The breeders that have large kennels have kennel help that take care of things and help them so they can comfortably have more litters. It is not a crime. It is unfortunate when they fall into hands of people who do nothing with their own dogs but ride on others coattails. Altobello has produced some nice dogs and they are acitive in showing.

Heck people here trash Cambria for breeding - At the rate the #'s are declining we better hope some of us are breeding.

In the 70's I just read recently that there were approx 80,000 Dobermans reg a year and that is down to under 10,000 today. You can say great we are going the right direction. Does anyone know the # required before a species becomes endangered??? How far down do you think we should go??? Will there be enough breeders left to bring the gene pool back???

Might want to think about that for those who are so against breeding. Yes we can eliminate albino breedings, rescue dogs, sick dogs - we can eliminate it all the minute the gene pool becomes so small it can't maintain itself. It surprised me to hear the top top breeders who are unfortunately not on the forums say we need to breed more. We are declining to the point that we are becoming endangered.

I just posted two articles that Judy Bingham of Electra gave me permission to post on Designer Genes - You might enjoy reading it.

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KenyaARaineCD

· #4 · Nov 3, 2011

Dobs4ever said:
{snip}Does anyone know the # required before a species becomes endangered???{snip}

Minor nitpick: The Doberman Pinscher isn't a species, it's a breed. Also note that Louis Dobermann and his successors created a new breed by mixing several other breeds. IMO, if the numbers of healthy purebred Dobes of proper temperament get so low that inbreeding becomes a threat, judicious cross-breeding with healthy and temperamentally-similar breeds (e.g., the Beauceron) can help re-establish the breed.

[soapbox]When it gets to the point that the majority of Dobe breeders breed only for looks without regard for working ability, that'll be the time for the breed to go away. What's the point of flooding the show-ring or pet-dog market with pretty but useless large-breed dogs? Cheez-n-onions, folks, just get a retarded spaniel-mix from the dog pound or something if you* feel the need to have a large, dumb, compliant dog gaze lovingly at you while you park your butt on the sofa all-day-long watching soap operas or game show re-runs.[/soapbox] (*generic "you")

JMO and thanks for reading it.:wavey:

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Adara

· #5 · Nov 3, 2011

KenyaARaineCD said:
[soapbox]When it gets to the point that the majority of Dobe breeders breed only for looks without regard for working ability, that'll be the time for the breed to go away. What's the point of flooding the show-ring or pet-dog market with pretty but useless large-breed dogs? Cheez-n-onions, folks, just get a retarded spaniel-mix from the dog pound or something if you* feel the need to have a large, dumb, compliant dog gaze lovingly at you while you park your butt on the sofa all-day-long watching soap operas or game show re-runs.[/soapbox] (*generic "you")

JMO and thanks for reading it.:wavey:

Ok I agree BUT playing devil's advocate - it goes both ways. Show vs working; working vs show. Breeding for ONE THING ONLY (no matter what it is) won't get us anymore. It's no better to breed JSUT for work without taking structure/conformation into consideration as it is to breed just for looks. You fall short in your breeding program.

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KenyaARaineCD

· #6 · Nov 3, 2011

Adara said:
{snip}It's no better to breed [JUST] for work without taking structure/conformation into consideration as it is to breed just for looks.{snip}

Agreed. (Thought that was implicit in my rant.:dontknow

It's just that I see far too many breeders focusing only on conformation wins and not the other titles. IMO, a Dobe without the ability to earn even a CGC shouldn't be included in a breeding program.

My apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread. I'll shut up now. :hmmm:

:wavey:

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TxDobieLady

· #7 · Nov 3, 2011

I love intelligent debates. I think as a whole the doberman community needs to decide as what needs to be done to increase numbers but not decrease quality while still eliminating the BYB's and over producers and why cant a dog be a great working sport dog and do great in conformation I know its been tried and failed or come short but what if you had multiple breeders working for the same goal each could have a minor specific goal to complete then they could be crossed and improved until the goal is reached yes it is to much for one person but not for the whole community why not make the doberman they best all around quality dog in the world working and conformation? JMO

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Fitzmar Dobermans

· #8 · Nov 3, 2011

I have a problem with the fact that they seem to be happy to send a puppy to any tom dick or harry that wants one .... so that they can start up a "Euro Dobe" breeder/greeder business here in the USA. JMHO

That would be like Cambria sending puppies to foreign countries to start up breeding programs there.... Oh wait, they Do do that!

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MaryAndDobes

· #9 · Nov 3, 2011

Tally05 said:
Im getting a pup from Altobello in Serbia tommorow. People on here dont seem to like them...why?? Is it because they breed so many pups? They have a lot of champions there and their dogs are all top quality so I cant understand why people on here dont like them... Just wondering! x

Yes, it's because they breed so many puppies - stats on their website at one time indicated 7-14 LITTERS a year. And because they supply so many lousy breeders in other countries with breeding stock, which makes it appear that they really don't care where their puppies end up.

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Scuba_Bob

· #10 · Nov 3, 2011

Altobello has some amazing looking dogs but does anyone here have dogs from them? how are their lines for health and temperament? I know people give them a lot of heat cause they send their studs to Kimbertal but if someone who knows can chime in on the quality of Altobello dogs would like here.

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Incredibledobe

· #11 · Nov 3, 2011

Adara said:
Ok I agree BUT playing devil's advocate - it goes both ways. Show vs working; working vs show. Breeding for ONE THING ONLY (no matter what it is) won't get us anymore. It's no better to breed JSUT for work without taking structure/conformation into consideration as it is to breed just for looks. You fall short in your breeding program.

I so agree with this and it is what I have based my whole breeding program on. But you are damned if you do and damned if you don't in the Dobermann world. According to many, you can't have both and I hear all of the time how these dogs and others who breed for both absolutely cannot do both and be any good at it. Of course, that mostly comes from people who have never tried doing both or were not successful in one or the other. Hmmm....

My problem with altobello is who they sell to. Every Euro greeder in the states seems to have Altobello dogs. They do nothing with the dogs and if the dog is imported with a title, they are the best thing since sliced bread. I wish they would be a lot more careful on who they place these dogs with. I truly like some of their dogs, but would not have one in my pedigrees just because they have symbolic of Euro greeder here in the states.

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TxDobieLady

· #12 · Nov 3, 2011

this is what I previously posted on. WHy not make as group effort for dogs that can do both you cant expect one person to make this accomplishment

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Euro-Boy

· #13 · Nov 3, 2011

The ones that I have seen here are soft, there is a female that came from that kennel, and it does ok in the UKC conf.ring, but it doesn't do well in the AKC, the owner has gone out
to a working dog club in PA, but to date hasn't done anything, she did do her WAC up in
MI this past August, the scores were posted, all 1's is not my kind of working dog, it would be a pet, period! In the UKC it goes against 1 maybe 2 other dogs tops, so to me that is just schooling, training, unlike the AKC were there are 10 to 20 in a class, never saw her
there. I would not purchase from them, for one 14 litters are just to many, and yes they may have some CH but what happens to the ones that don't? Do they ship them all off
to country's like ours that most people don't know squat about the bloodlines or the drive of the dog/bitch, just to say I have a EURO IMPORT. I all of mine are imports, and they
are worked not once a week but everyday, in either ob, tracking, or bite work, they all
have titles, and are OFA'd so don't even start to rip on me. This kennel does limited health test and titles are only on the chosen few. I am not saying that you could not get a nice dog from them, but, all the people on here jump on the band wagon about commerial breeders, (which they are) health testing, and titles, I don't see anyone jumping up and down on this why? Sorry if I have stepped on anyone toes, JMIO...

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Tally05

Discussion Starter · #14 · Nov 3, 2011

I'm pretty sure mines been health tested. I suppose it's hard to know who your selling to when you sell abroad. Thanks for all your replies. Il post pics tommorow when I pick up my baby. I hope people can tell me what they think of him. I don't plan to show or breed him he's just a pet but I'd still like to know if he looks good!

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Australdi

· #15 · Nov 4, 2011

Tally05 said:
I'm pretty sure mines been health tested. I suppose it's hard to know who your selling to when you sell abroad. Thanks for all your replies. Il post pics tommorow when I pick up my baby. I hope people can tell me what they think of him. I don't plan to show or breed him he's just a pet but I'd still like to know if he looks good!

The bit I bolded in your quote kinda speaks volumes.....

you should be able to say ....
I have copies of the parent's
Cerf certificates
OFA scores/certificates
Thyroid and liver function tests
Cardio/ echo and Holter results & DNA status
VonWillibrand's status (DNA)

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sam&macksmom

· #16 · Nov 4, 2011

You should be supplied with copies of all health testing, 4 generation pedigree, info on lineage (cause of death), longevity info.

This is important stuff for PET owners

Tally05 said:
I'm pretty sure mines been health tested. I suppose it's hard to know who your selling to when you sell abroad. Thanks for all your replies. Il post pics tommorow when I pick up my baby. I hope people can tell me what they think of him. I don't plan to show or breed him he's just a pet but I'd still like to know if he looks good!

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RedFawnRising

· #17 · Nov 4, 2011

So, Tally, just "saw" you on another thread, defending Kimbertal and saying the folks on BoDT had some valid points...now you're asking about Euromill.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

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DreamValley

· #18 · Nov 4, 2011

Tally05 said:
Im getting a pup from Altobello in Serbia tommorow. People on here dont seem to like them...why?? Is it because they breed so many pups? They have a lot of champions there and their dogs are all top quality so I cant understand why people on here dont like them... Just wondering! x

Who is a sire and a dam? I absolutely love Maxim Altobello and think he is the most beautiful male in Europe

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TheStig

· #19 · Nov 4, 2011

We had to take a test in high school, or maybe middle school. It was a simple 1 question test with three possible choices.

We were asked to read three descriptions of people and pick the one who we thought would make the best president of our country.

I don't remember the details of them all, but one was a person who was overweight, smoke and drank a lot, etc., etc. Another was a former criminal or something or another, and the last choice was a man who never smoked or drank, went to church, or something or another, etc.

Everyone picked the third choice in our class. Then the teacher told us who the third choice was. It was Hitler.

The point to that is who cares where the dog came from, if it has good lines and is healthy, why not use it to better the breed?

Until there is better structure, worldwide, with better (read: stricter) guidelines on breeding, everyone is just spinning their wheels.

A handful of people who are trying to do the right thing, on their own, are nothing compared to a hundred of handfuls of people out to make a buck.

Are other breeds having the same issues? Can't all the reputable breeders in the land come together and start a club of some sort? As in, like real estate agents under the Realtor moniker. As in, if you aren't a member of this 'club' you are not considered a reputable breeder trying to further the betterment of the breed? Can't there be some type of fundraiser(s) to gather money to further genetic testing?

I make some bad ass brownie cookies. I could probably make $20 off a few dozen or more. If 10,000 people did that, that's 200 grand. That would get a rocket surgeon off their bums, no?

I don't know the ins and outs of the breeding community nationwide, but with so many folks under their own names and breeding regimens, it seems that many are choosing to take on this challenge single handedly, while maintaining that there are others out their doing the same thing subconsciously.

Minor nitpick: The Doberman Pinscher isn't a species, it's a breed. Also note that Louis Dobermann and his successors created a new breed by mixing several other breeds. IMO, if the numbers of healthy purebred Dobes of proper temperament get so low that inbreeding becomes a threat, judicious cross-breeding with healthy and temperamentally-similar breeds (e.g., the Beauceron) can help re-establish the breed.

Sorry, the original poster was correct, the doberman is a species. 'Breed' is not recognized on the biological classification order, which is Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species.

'Breed' is just the definition of the manner in which they are produced, because they are commonly produced by humans.

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Amelia_

· #20 · Nov 4, 2011 (Edited)

RedFawnRising said:
So, Tally, just "saw" you on another thread, defending Kimbertal and saying the folks on BoDT had some valid points...now you're asking about Euromill.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

Other things that make you go hmmmm: someone importing a dog they have no intention of showing/working/breeding, purely because they want a cropped and docked guard dog in a country where this is illegal. Someone buying a dog and trying to talk themselves into believing they bought from a good breeder, not accepting knowledgeable people's opinions about the subject.

Would LOVE to be proved wrong on this one, however I have never seen these type of dogs go to the right kind of people in the UK for non-breeding use.

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