I think If they do health testing and know a little bit about pedigrees, plus they work with the puppies to begin to socialize a puppy,and if they are near a club and belong, would mean they have the best intrest in the breed. These things don't mean they are good but at least mean they may be trying.This is some of what I would look for.
What makes a back yard breeder?
Ok, so if every one can’t tell by now, I’m in the search for a Doberman pup.
So, what makes a backyard breeder? If it’s a first time breeding two dogs of good lineage with AKC cert and several other titles as well as health testing, is this a BYB? On the other hand, have reputable breeders ever started as a byb and earned the status of a reputable breeder?
discuss
So, what makes a backyard breeder? If it’s a first time breeding two dogs of good lineage with AKC cert and several other titles as well as health testing, is this a BYB? On the other hand, have reputable breeders ever started as a byb and earned the status of a reputable breeder?
discuss
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
The above Is what I would look for in a breeder. A back yard breeder is one who dosen''t know or do any of the above.
http://members.execulink.com/~korevaar/buyingguide.htm
This will tell you pretty much everything you need to know about a responsible breeder, and evidence to the contrary would consitute a irresponsible breeder. So many byb push the "AKC registered", and while yes a dog should be registered without a doubt, at the same time because it should be done, it isn't anything to brag about. A dog should be titled in confirmation as well, just to ensure that the dog is build correctly to the standard and ensure the pups will be conformed to the standard to carry on the breed as it is meant to be. Other titles are fantastic also. A responsible breeder only breeds to bring quality dogs into the world to ensure the continuation of a wonderful and healthy breed. A responsible breeder has little to no reason to advertise their pups, generally they are all or nearly all spoken for even before whelping. The homes are carefully screened and pups are sent off to either show homes, or pet homes with spay neuter contracts.
A responsible breeder, carefully choses the dogs to breed so that they compliment eachother fully, and one's strengths will overpower the other's weaknesses to attempt the very best match.
Now one might say, yeah great and all, but I just want a pet, I don't want to show and title, I just want a dog to protect me and my household and to be my companion. Well, doesn't everyone deserve the healthiest and most correct dog they can get? Whether it be for show or pet? If a dog isn't conformed correctly, it will be less likely to be able to perform it's intended purpose, whether that be a home protector or a show dog.
While I am not well versed in the doberman breeder world, I would say yes, a person can go from a BYB to a reputable breeder. It is possible for anyone to see the error of their ways and work to correct that by changing their actions and views, they will have a negitive reputation to work through though. I don't imagine many byb's do, but I don't see why it isn't possible.
This will tell you pretty much everything you need to know about a responsible breeder, and evidence to the contrary would consitute a irresponsible breeder. So many byb push the "AKC registered", and while yes a dog should be registered without a doubt, at the same time because it should be done, it isn't anything to brag about. A dog should be titled in confirmation as well, just to ensure that the dog is build correctly to the standard and ensure the pups will be conformed to the standard to carry on the breed as it is meant to be. Other titles are fantastic also. A responsible breeder only breeds to bring quality dogs into the world to ensure the continuation of a wonderful and healthy breed. A responsible breeder has little to no reason to advertise their pups, generally they are all or nearly all spoken for even before whelping. The homes are carefully screened and pups are sent off to either show homes, or pet homes with spay neuter contracts.
A responsible breeder, carefully choses the dogs to breed so that they compliment eachother fully, and one's strengths will overpower the other's weaknesses to attempt the very best match.
Now one might say, yeah great and all, but I just want a pet, I don't want to show and title, I just want a dog to protect me and my household and to be my companion. Well, doesn't everyone deserve the healthiest and most correct dog they can get? Whether it be for show or pet? If a dog isn't conformed correctly, it will be less likely to be able to perform it's intended purpose, whether that be a home protector or a show dog.
While I am not well versed in the doberman breeder world, I would say yes, a person can go from a BYB to a reputable breeder. It is possible for anyone to see the error of their ways and work to correct that by changing their actions and views, they will have a negitive reputation to work through though. I don't imagine many byb's do, but I don't see why it isn't possible.
When I hear backyard breeder, I think of someone who is breeding two dogs with little regard to the future of the puppies and/or the breed as a whole.
Backyard breeders come in various shapes in forms. Some are breeding because they have a good dog now and hope to get a puppy who is exactly like mom or dad. Others believe that a female needs to have a litter before being spayed. And there are others who are out to make a quick buck (on a small scale is a BYB, on a larger scale is a puppy mill).
The consistent theme is that the breeder has little or no regard for the breed as a whole. The BYB has no knowledge of the breed standard and they neglect both health testing and socialization. Not to mention selective breeding goals and techniques.
Backyard breeders come in various shapes in forms. Some are breeding because they have a good dog now and hope to get a puppy who is exactly like mom or dad. Others believe that a female needs to have a litter before being spayed. And there are others who are out to make a quick buck (on a small scale is a BYB, on a larger scale is a puppy mill).
The consistent theme is that the breeder has little or no regard for the breed as a whole. The BYB has no knowledge of the breed standard and they neglect both health testing and socialization. Not to mention selective breeding goals and techniques.
I think that Lexus, DobeDad, and Ann have pretty much summed it up.
I don't think that just because it is someone’s first time breeding that they are automatically a byb, but I think I would ask alot more questions. I would expect that if it is someone’s first time breeding, they have some sort of mentor in the breed or have been involved with Dobermans for a long time. I would expect that they have dedicated alot of time to the female they are breeding, and that they have done their research on the male to make sure he is a good match for her. Like I said, I would think that they would have some sort of mentor, or hopefully mentor's to guide them. I don’t necessarily think that they have to have been involved with Dobermans their whole life, but I do think that they should be dedicated to the betterment of the breed. I would expect to come across this person, more than likely as a referral. For instance…If I contacted a reputable breeder and they sent me in the direction of the new breeder....like...."I don’t have any puppies at this time, but......so and so.....is expecting a litter, it is their first litter, but I would highly recommend them."
Every breeder had to start somewhere. Hopefully they learned and did their research before making the decision to breed a litter a pups though.
Best of Luck in your search.
I don't think that just because it is someone’s first time breeding that they are automatically a byb, but I think I would ask alot more questions. I would expect that if it is someone’s first time breeding, they have some sort of mentor in the breed or have been involved with Dobermans for a long time. I would expect that they have dedicated alot of time to the female they are breeding, and that they have done their research on the male to make sure he is a good match for her. Like I said, I would think that they would have some sort of mentor, or hopefully mentor's to guide them. I don’t necessarily think that they have to have been involved with Dobermans their whole life, but I do think that they should be dedicated to the betterment of the breed. I would expect to come across this person, more than likely as a referral. For instance…If I contacted a reputable breeder and they sent me in the direction of the new breeder....like...."I don’t have any puppies at this time, but......so and so.....is expecting a litter, it is their first litter, but I would highly recommend them."
Every breeder had to start somewhere. Hopefully they learned and did their research before making the decision to breed a litter a pups though.
Best of Luck in your search.
Dobedad said:Others believe that a female needs to have a litter before being spayed.
That quote P***es me off no no end!!!! My jaw drops every single time I hear it!!! Grrrrrrrr
me too! it is just ignorance and BS! I think that another good quality to a breeder is a someone with a passion for the breed who only wants to improve both the breed with the dogs they produce, and to better the breed in the eyes of society. It is their passion, they do not do it for money. they do it cuz they love the breed and only want the best for them.
A backyard breeder would be a person(s) who are only breeding for a quick way to make money and care nothing about the dogs or breed. Also they are individuals who put two dogs together in order to breed, without knowing nothing about each dogs genetic history(pedigree). Someone who is starting out and wants to build a reputation, would be someone who takes the time to test the males and females for genetic diseases(DNA testing), takes time to study each mate in person and understand each dogs personality.
I think the two hallmarks of the backyard breeder are they lack knowledge and they lack discrimination. Many times these are people who love their dogs...the idea that the byb is some seedy individual who keeps their dogs in squalid conditions just isn't true on any large scale. Most of them could be yours or my neighbor-much of the time, they ARE your or my neighbor.
The byb knows very little about the doberman breed, the pedigrees they're working with or basic genetics. They're unable to rise above their love for their pet to look at the dog with a discriminating eye and make an intelligent decision about whether these dogs can make a real contribution to the breed. In many cases, I've noticed these people are totally lacking a sense of aesthetics-try though they might, they just don't have an eye for quality.
Maybe I've just become cynical over time..but I've been heavily involved in the dog world for over 30 years. In that time period, I've come across more byb's than i care to remember. And very, very few of them ever grow, learn and do better.
For the most part, the people who breed responsibly do so from the very beginning-intrinsically they know about striving for excellence by demanding excellence without having to have that concept taught to them.
The byb knows very little about the doberman breed, the pedigrees they're working with or basic genetics. They're unable to rise above their love for their pet to look at the dog with a discriminating eye and make an intelligent decision about whether these dogs can make a real contribution to the breed. In many cases, I've noticed these people are totally lacking a sense of aesthetics-try though they might, they just don't have an eye for quality.
Maybe I've just become cynical over time..but I've been heavily involved in the dog world for over 30 years. In that time period, I've come across more byb's than i care to remember. And very, very few of them ever grow, learn and do better.
For the most part, the people who breed responsibly do so from the very beginning-intrinsically they know about striving for excellence by demanding excellence without having to have that concept taught to them.
ITA.And very, very few of them ever grow, learn and do better.
It's funny you say that...my girl is from a byb. A coworker of mine knew I just put down my dobe, and was thinking about getting another. He told me his neighbor had a litter, he thought they were dobies, but not sure. The next day he said they had one left, a female, and I could have her if I wanted, no charge cause she was a funny color. Well I go to see her....she's blue...*lol*. They were apologizing for how she looked, and how they would understand if I didn't want her...etc., and if I didn't take her they were taking her to animal control. I was just amazed how they could be so ignorant to not recognize her as blue.Murreydobe said:I think the two hallmarks of the backyard breeder are they lack knowledge and they lack discrimination. ...
The byb knows very little about the doberman breed, the pedigrees they're working with or basic genetics......
I'm with PWM on this one. Drives me crazy to hear this the most. Most of the time I think they are trying to get their money back that they spent.Dobedad said:Others believe that a female needs to have a litter before being spayed.
I think of all of the above things when I think of BYB. I think there were some very good definitions. Some people just don't want to change though and learn, or they don't care.
It is sad though when they don't even know the colors. I hope they spayed/neutered their dogs after that.
That story is incredible. Some byb breeders will charge more b/c they think blues and fawns are "exotic" colors. They also have no idea that those colors require special care in most cases and the buyer is left to "figure things out" on their own.Ellie's mom said:no charge cause she was a funny color. Well I go to see her....she's blue...*lol*
These are all great answers. I would like to add a little bit.
Backyard breeders also don't understand why dogs need to be shown in conformation. They can't grasp the concept of showing and breeding better dogs. They think it is all about looks only, and it isn't.
A GOOD breeder is about conformation for a reason, a GOOD breeder also focuses on health and temperament as top concerns in their breeding program. They know just b/c a dog is a CH, that doesn't mean they need to be bred, and just because a dog has a pedigree that doesn’t mean that particular dog needs to be bred either. Some byb believe just b/c a dog has Ch.'s in their pedigree, the dog is worth breeding without any health tests, titles, or anything. GOOD breeders know that Ch.'s in the background doesn’t automatically mean the dog should be bred by any means.
There is more to breeding than just looks, it is the total package GOOD breeders are aiming for, longevity, conformation, trainability, temperament, and health, among other things. They focus on the standard and prove their breeding dogs with extensive health testing, titles (CH. and performance titles both are best), and temperament testing. They test their dogs, and show them, they don't just rely on the vet or random individuals opinions if they should breed their dogs. If they think their dog "could be" a CH. they show the dog and don't consider any breeding of the dog until the dog has their CH. They train and title their dogs to prove the dogs are quality.
They are breeding "better" dogs and have a goal in mind before they breed. That goal doesn't include producing "cute" puppies (all are cute) but instead healthy, genetically sound, great tempered dogs. They study pedigrees and are aware of the health and temperament on both sides so they can avoid making puppies with problems, they actually care about the future of the breed, not money. They keep their Dobermans and their puppies inside and take the time to expose them to normal household noise and socialize them with lots of people and stimulate their mind. This makes for a better puppy.
Many byb's keep their puppies outdoors, along with the parents. They don't understand the importance of early socialization and stimulation and how it affects the puppy. They don't know puppy developmental stages and don't give their puppies a head start in life. They may love their puppies and think they are cute, but don’t realize how much work and money a litter really is, they will cut costs, like not cropping their puppies or giving them shots, etc. All of the cutting corners here and there, the ignorance of proper puppy rearing and care, long term genetics, proper conformation, and lack of knowledge about a solid temperament, really adds up and it is the puppy buyer and Doberman breed as a whole who suffers.
Backyard breeders don't understand that looks and proper conformation help the dog live a better life and be healthier and better able to perform what they were bred to do. A sound dog makes a great pet and a great working dog. A dog with proper conformation has less problems. Form follows function.
Byb's don't understand the written standard and don't understand the need for one and what it means to them as breeders, the breed as a whole, the dog, the puppies, etc.
They don't know or care to know the correct Dobe temperament or prefer a different temperament (Lab in Dobe suit or very vicious dog) and therefore breed just whatever, they don't temperament test or socialize their puppies properly and who knows what type of problems they are breeding into their puppies.
They might *say* their dog has a correct temperament, but it is personal opinion, they don't temperament test or care to do so.
Just like some say the dogs *might* be show quality, but they have never shown in their life and have no idea. Or they say the dog is really really smart (what Dobe isn't?) but they never train or title the dog to prove it. Their statements are opinions with no real anything to back them up. They might love their dogs very much, but just b/c you love a dog doesn’t mean it needs to be bred.
Without any meaningful or complete health testing, they don't know what they are breeding as far as genetics, and most of the times they don't care about the long term picture. They think as long as the annual vet check is okay; the dog is okay to breed.
They don't have extensive knowledge of longevity, and GOOD breeders keep that mind when breeding dogs, everyone (pet owners, show dog owners, and performance dog owners) wants their dog to live a long time and to be healthy and happy, which is why it is important to go to a breeder who cares and health tests and shows and knows their lines. It increases your chances of getting a healthy long-lived much loved companion.
Byb's don't know pedigrees, they just figure they have purebreds that look healthy right now and cute and they love them so much what is the harm in breeding them? The kids could see the miracle of birth, or they could have another puppy JUST like their pet (this isn't likely - esp when they have no idea what they are doing). They don't understand there are hundred of purebred Dobes in shelters across the US that need homes, some are even puppies. They don't see how they contribute to that number.
I could keep going, but have to get back to work…
id like to add that a good breeder also doesnt just say they focus on that they know they do out of experience and devotion to the breed.A GOOD breeder is about conformation for a reason, a GOOD breeder also focuses on health and temperament as top concerns in their breeding program.
http://www.dobermantalk.com/showthread.php?t=2167
Here is something else on another thread that might be helpful...
Here is something else on another thread that might be helpful...
dobesanddragons said:The sharing of basic breeder information and certain breeders is important and can help others quickly identify lies and clever marketing as well as honest and quality breeders.
Some breeders are very slick and can talk a good game and take advantage of unknowing puppy buyers.
When breeders give references, well of course, they are only going to give you the best they have and only those who are satisfied. I have noticed when you look at most websites that have references they are puppies, some only 8 weeks old. That is not really an accurate reference at all. Many problems don’t even show up until much later. Relying only on that incomplete snapshot the breeder wants you to see can be problematic.
Also, just b/c a person takes their animals to the vet for regular care doesn't mean they are reputable breeders.
A vet reference can only tell you so much, combine that with specific health test results of both parents, the titles (CH. and performance titles) on both parents (in the US Int' CH isn't that hard, while AKC CH. is and does really say something about quality), temperament tests like CGC, WAC, TT, etc., and a look at their overall reputation, experience level, and their involvement in their breed specific and training clubs (how much time do they spend getting to KNOW their breed, how much do they know about pedigrees and the specific lines they are breeding, why are they breeding, how involved are they in dog clubs - at the local level as well as DPCA membership- and how much quality time do they spend with their dogs at home, in training,etc, is a start to some basic questions that need to be answered), as well as meeting in person with other past puppy buyers whose dogs are grown so you can visit with the actual dogs the breeder is producing, spending time at the breeders to see how the dogs live and are taken care of, can give you a much more accurate idea of what type of breeder you are dealing with...
Totally agree. A lot of byb's "say" that, but either don't mean it or really know don't know what that means or includes. They usually don't do any testing for them either, it is strictly talk and/or opinionLapDog said:id like to add that a good breeder also doesnt just say they focus on that they know they do out of experience and devotion to the breed.
The other day I was walking Toro and some fool approached me on the street, "Hey, is that a MALE doberman? See, I have a female and...
now THAT'S a BYB of the worst kind...pure ignorance and greed.
now THAT'S a BYB of the worst kind...pure ignorance and greed.
I agree with all the info and things to look for! You guys give out such great advice.
Oh ugghhh! I hate it when that happens! Luckily I've got that total "I'm a dog snob" look down pat and I just put it on my face when people start talking totally ignorent byber talk it usually scares them off quick - LOL!Rebel73 said:The other day I was walking Toro and some fool approached me on the street, "Hey, is that a MALE doberman? See, I have a female and...
now THAT'S a BYB of the worst kind...pure ignorance and greed.
I'm really NOT a dog snob, I think every dog deserves a good home. I just get upset when people start talking about breeding their dog and they don't know squat about the breed. I started out with a total byb Doberman too - a lot of people who now show and breed did. I sure as heck spayed her fast once I realized that she came no-where close to the breed standard. Loved that dog!
My story about this:
We had just moved to this house 2 1/2 years ago (before Louise was even born). I was standing out front with Velma - who I was still showing and thinking of breeding. A neighbor across the street walked over and said (without even introducing himself or saying Hi) "what do you think of a Chow/Doberman cross"? I knew he had an intact male chow in his back yard, so my response was: " I don't think about them at all". The look on his face was priceless
. Luckily, they moved away the next year.1 - 20 of 31 Posts
- This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
A forum community dedicated to doberman owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, health, behavior, housing, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Recommended Communities
