[Beau79]

Hello!

Thank you in advance for offering your feedback.

A few things I'd like to note, before someone blasts me for asking such a question.

I'm fully aware that every dog is different. I've not had a chance to speak to his breeder on my thoughts, but I will do it in the near future.

Our dog is 18 months old, and has been socialized very well (IMO). He's been to large cities, town centers, parks, out door malls, he's done very well around crowds, loud children, other dogs, etc. He's rather put his head on your lap and you pet him/scratch his ears than anything else.

We got him because we were hoping he'd guard our home and my wife when I'm away for work.

I'm also taking into account that he's just 18 months, and may still be considered a puppy.

The other evening, it was his dinner time, and the pizza delivery guy knocked on the door. What'd the dog do? Stood there, looked at the door and then walked back over to the garage door where he knew his food was. We've been trying to get him to at least bark or approach the front door when someone rings the bell or knocks loud.

We don't want an aggressive dog, we don't want an unsure dog that barks at every little movement outside, but when someone knocks on the door or rings the bell, we want him to care. He's excellent with strangers, sometimes too good. He'd rather wag his nub and give them kisses than anything else, and we can accept that. Better that than an aggressive dog = liability. We have a security system and we do use it -- we don't intend on depending solely on the dog.

If you could share some thoughts and possibly what any of you have done with a similar type/personality Doberman, it would be a huge help.

He may just not have the drive for it, or maybe he'll grow into it around 2-3.

I was considering taking him to someone in our area that has been in the protection field for 2-3 decades for an assessment but my wife is against it.

Thank you!

 

[PatchworkRobot]

My boy showed signs of protectiveness around 6months. My boyfriend once knocked on the door and as Dreizehn jumped over me (I was laying on the floor) to get to the door I sort of scremed out of surprise. Well Dreizehn's hackles went up and he started barking like I've never heard him bark before. He was definitely protecting me. He's also growled and gotten protective at a very few number of creepy individuals that have approached me. Like your boy he is incredibly well socialized. So I think what he does (and what they're supposed to do) is assess the situation and act accordingly. Perhaps your boy hasn't been faced with a situation that he deemed as needing to protect?

As for the barking... I've always praised him for barking when the doorbell is rung or when somebody knocked. I'd allow him to bark 3 to 4 times and then I'd pat him on the head and say, "Enough, thank you." It seemed to work.

 

[KCFilley]

Eighteen months is still young but I truly believe when and if your dog needs to protect you he will. Be thankful he is socialized so well. I would rather have a friendly Doberman who likes people rather than one I have to continuously watch. Possibly just his presence is enough to scare off would be intruders.

I have an 85 lbish male and did not think he was overly protective either. One of my workers made a mistake and came up thru my basement instead of thru the door upstairs and Joe absolutely would not let him up the stairs. Surprised me and the worker. Other than that he is best buds with about everyone. My 3 1/2 month old female on the other hand is probably not going to be friendly and I'm going to have to really socialize her.

 

[KevinK]

With most dogs, if you want a protection dog, you are going to need to train for it. I think most people would be surprised at how their dog would react in a high pressure situation without any training. A bark, or growl may deter your typical petty theif, but will not deter a professional, because the professional will know that the chance of your dog attacking is lower than the chance of the dog running away, or just making a rukus but not doing anything about it. I know loads of people who "know" their dog will protect them, but the truth is they likely won't. Most dogs will eventually start barking at the door, but I wouldn't expect any real protection without any training. If you think about it, with your typical pet dog, you're expecting him to do things that you have likely trained him NOT to do, like act aggressively towards strangers.

Based on your dogs drives, it may be easy to teach him to bark at the door, may not be so easy. You may have to do some drive building. If you're not familiar with this type of stuff, don't attempt it yourself. But the thing to tell your wife is that a WELL TRAINED protection or schutzund dog is actually LESS likely to make an uncalled for attack. You are teaching your dog control, how to react under pressure, and getting your dog used to pressure that he wouldn't otherwise see as a pet. Your average person thinks sch work or similar is going to make your dog crazy, and aggressive, and it's really not true.

It's also possible that like stated, your dog just hasn't had a reason to react, so he hasn't. At 18 months he hasn't matured yet, and his personality will still change a bit. But I wouldn't expect a whole lot of protection from a dog that hasn't been trained. Maybe he will, maybe he won't act accordingly in a real situation.

You can have a wae test done, many of the clubs do them, so I would look into that. That will be a good evaluation of what your dog may or may not do in a higher pressure situation.

 

[Beau79]

With most dogs, if you want a protection dog, you are going to need to train for it. I think most people would be surprised at how their dog would react in a high pressure situation without any training. A bark, or growl may deter your typical petty theif, but will not deter a professional, because the professional will know that the chance of your dog attacking is lower than the chance of the dog running away, or just making a rukus but not doing anything about it. I know loads of people who "know" their dog will protect them, but the truth is they likely won't. Most dogs will eventually start barking at the door, but I wouldn't expect any real protection without any training. If you think about it, with your typical pet dog, you're expecting him to do things that you have likely trained him NOT to do, like act aggressively towards strangers.

Based on your dogs drives, it may be easy to teach him to bark at the door, may not be so easy. You may have to do some drive building. If you're not familiar with this type of stuff, don't attempt it yourself. But the thing to tell your wife is that a WELL TRAINED protection or schutzund dog is actually LESS likely to make an uncalled for attack. You are teaching your dog control, how to react under pressure, and getting your dog used to pressure that he wouldn't otherwise see as a pet. Your average person thinks sch work or similar is going to make your dog crazy, and aggressive, and it's really not true.

It's also possible that like stated, your dog just hasn't had a reason to react, so he hasn't. At 18 months he hasn't matured yet, and his personality will still change a bit. But I wouldn't expect a whole lot of protection from a dog that hasn't been trained. Maybe he will, maybe he won't act accordingly in a real situation.

You can have a wae test done, many of the clubs do them, so I would look into that. That will be a good evaluation of what your dog may or may not do in a higher pressure situation.

Thank you! Can you please elaborate on a "wae" test?

 

[sam&macksmom]

You just missed the WAE test in Waldorf, MD. It was held on 10/22.

more info: DPCA | The Doberman | Temperament | WAE

 

[Beaumont67]

Beau79 - your Casanova sounds like a very good boy...and agree, the pizza delivery guy should have been barked at.
What age does he become protective of his home? ~several months to a year old maybe (hard to remember, +10 years ago)

I think it is somewhat up to the owner to "wind the dog up" in the beginning (if needed)...when someone knocks on the door / and praise-praise-praise 4the bark-bark-bark.

If you just let him saunter away, from putting up a fuss...he probably won't outgrow this "I don't care moment."
- and your missing real life examples...to improve his drive to semi-protect &/or alert
- the natural dog instincts can kick in with fun encouragement

 

[Beau79]

Beau79 - your Casanova sounds like a very good boy...and agree, the pizza delivery guy should have been barked at.
What age does he become protective of his home? ~several months to a year old maybe (hard to remember, +10 years ago)

I think it is somewhat up to the owner to "wind the dog up" in the beginning (if needed)...when someone knocks on the door / and praise-praise-praise 4the bark-bark-bark.

If you just let him saunter away, from putting up a fuss...he probably won't outgrow this "I don't care moment."
- and your missing real life examples...to improve his drive to semi-protect &/or alert
- the natural dog instincts can kick in with fun encouragement

Thank you! He is an amazing dog, and we cherish every minute with him.

This is just something that we'd like to work on with him. We're looking into the WAE and some other things that may help him be more confident. The last portion of the WAE is a decoy/someone dressed in a trenchcoat approaching him making a lot of noise. I don't know how he'd take to that, but if I had to guess, he'd tuck his nub and put it in reverse real quick!

 

[Tperkins]

Call me the odd man out but I for one think that very very few dogs would actually "protect" someone. (unless specifically trained) The WAE in my opinion dosn't show if a dog would protect you. I feel the aggresive stranger doesn't put near the pressure on the dog as would a real life situation. The WAE is a great temperment test to see how stable a dog is, but it does not show anything as far as how protective a dog truely is. My dog though still young would pass the WAE, is a super confident dog, is currrently training in bitework, ect ect and I still feel that if put in that position he may or may not aggresively attack a threat to the point the threat would be neutralized. I realy can't say and just pray I never have to find out. Though he is not a bred working line dog, I would be interested to see how some with dogs from much stronger working lines would answer the question. Now realize that I am talking about a situation where Robber, Pyscho ect type breaks in and wants to do bodily harm, would the dog be able to stop this person. I'm not talking about a mailman in your backyard or a friend coming in the wrong door. These people are going to be afraid and any confident dog will react in the desired way during these situations(moving forward, barking ect..). The real question is when the dog is faced with a threat that is aggresivley going at the dog will the dog aggress forward or retreat. I think saying that put in the situatuion any doberman, or dog for that matter will rise up and conqeur is wishful thinking.


Don't want to start an argument with this, but I would liek soem insight from other regarding what they feel their dog would do and why they feel the dog would do it.


After readign a few more responses I realize the main focus is a dog alerting to stuff ect.. Not protecting. I will say the barking at people at the door, and generally alerting to thing he was not sure of, Rocko has done from day 1. He has always made his round around theh ouse when he would hear something, he has on many occasions had the meter reader bayed into the corner of the fence, and everytime he move he would bay him back ect... My intial response was in regard to a dog forcefully protecting a home. Sorry for the de-railment!

 

[Beaumont67]

Beau79
First question...your boy is 1.5 y/o now, how old was Casanova, when you got him ??

We got our girl at 8 weeks old, breeder needed to send this pup to a most loving home...so we got the girl of our dreams.
Amy was very submissive & picked on by a few litter mates, she would not fight back and rolled onto her back to expose her belly.

I confidence & eye focus trained her from day1 - just using play games.
- she has prevented a few people, from walking off our front porch / until I call her off
(our regular mailman...is her best bud...lol)
- she protected the neighbor children and had the utility reader in a "put-stay" at the side of their house
- she has growled and snapped at a 150 lb. male dog that tried to get behind her & mount / she can hold her own
- she submissed a larger & aggressive dog from biting my wife, 5 years ago
Check out this thread, I documented how I trained our girl:
http://www.dobermantalk.com/general-training-obedience/60146-teaching-your-dobe-catch.html

Re. Quote - I'm not sure if he is ready for this yet, build upon the easy basics first:
(after all - you just want him to bark to alert the family, of strangers...and not be on the lazy side / he has a job to do)
The last portion of the WAE is a decoy/someone dressed in a trench coat approaching him making a lot of noise.

Tperkins
I enjoyed reading your post...totally agree, just alert barking is far different than true protecting without taking on a retreat mode.
- I love seeing Rocko, in your posts

 

[Herb2relax]

Kyrah barked at someone knocking on the door or someone coming in the door very early. I'd say atleast by 16 weeks. I believe my terrriers taught her this. She is very good when out but dont knock or try to come in her house. Even the ladies at work that she runs up to, to get treats from are a totally different person when knocking and coming into the house. I have trained her & the terriers now to down on their dog pillow in the living room when I open the door to talk to someone or let someone in. They hold their spot and Kyrah still barks and low growl. I tell her "enough" but of course we are still working on her having the last word. Do I believe she would attack someone? Probably not. I tell my 16yr old daughter if someone is getting in the house she is there to buy you a minute or so to run and get out a window. Its like a double edge sword when it comes to this. It is a bit irritating that she acts like this and it would be much more convient for people to just be able to come in. But then again I want her to be a bit protective. Also I would only want her to something if it was really necessary. Having lots of teenage boys over now I can put up with the way things are going. I dont want them to think it would be ok to sneak in thru a window.

ETA: I should mention that Kyrah is not a people dog. She is not reactive to them and can be around them. But she doesnt want anyone trying to pet her unless its on her terms. I am very diligent about how people try to interact with her. I tell them quickly to ignore her, no baby talk & if she wants you to pet her she will come up to you. Otherwise leave her be and she will go about her business.

 

[DoubleDogDare]

What we need to remember is that these Dobes aren't like a lot of other breeds. They're discerning. They have the ability to assess the situation, the "stranger" in question, and your gut reaction to both in a split second. Chances are, if you knew it was the pizza guy, your dog KNEW you knew it was the pizza guy, and wasn't going to be bothered by going through the whole bark-at-the-door routine. I find Dylan doing that a lot. He seems to read me and my reaction before taking any kind of action. He does bark at the doorbell, but if I say "we have visitors, say hi" he'll do exactly that, with a smile and a wag. If I say nothing, he maintains a watchful stance, waits to see what needs to be done next. The nice thing about Dobes is that often, they defend by their appearance alone. I've made sure that every solicitor, lawn guy or mulch-selling lowlife that comes through here has seen Dylan and knows that he lives here. Is that a complete deterrence? Probably not. But it's a lot easier to hit the house down the street where there is no Dobe present.

Would Dylan defend me physically? I'm guessing when the pressure is on, probably not. He's of a softer personality, fully American-bred, and comes from the more obedience/agility oriented lines, not protection lines. But that being said, he's very, very protective of my family and myself, and has made a lot of solicitors think twice. I hesitate to go into the true protection training, because I don't think he's "hard" enough for it. While he may bark and hold all day, I'm pretty sure he'd fail at the bite work, especially under pressure. But I wanted a very social Dobe, and that's what I got, and he's the perfect fit for my family.

To answer the OP's original question, Dylan came to us at 7 months of age, and on his first night home, he was aggressively growling at our reflections in the sliding glass doors at night, thinking it was someone outside our house. He was immediately protective of us and our home within the first 24 hours. As he's matured (he's one year old now, was neutered at 10 months), I've seen his protectiveness mature as well. He doesn't get his dander up at just anything anymore. He is more discerning about figuring out whether a given situation warrants a reaction. I'm guessing that will continue as he matures into full adulthood.

I praise him when he shows protective instincts, and do my best to guide him when he's uncertain. I want him to back down at my word, but I also want him to retain the protectiveness. I think the best thing you can do is trust your dog. Encourage and praise him when he does his job, but don't be disappointed if he seems to be ignoring it. Chances are, he's just smart enough to know when it's not necessary. Dobermans are special, and they will do anything for their loved ones. Whether or not that means a full-on attack of the bad guy may not matter. Like it was said, they can, at the very least, buy you some time if need be. And like I said above, they can often defend with their appearance alone. Isn't it awesome to own such a special, incredible dog?

 

[Beau79]

Thank you everyone for your feedback. Whenever some knocks on the door and before the door is open, the dog is on his 'place' mat, sitting, looking attentively at who's outside. That Doberman look alone is good enough. I'm on edge a bit because last year, we had 2-3 break ins in our neighborhood. If anyone does scope out our home long enough, they'll see that a dobe does guard this home. My wife and I still depend fully on our recently upgraded security system. I always tell my family that when and if needed, he'll be there for us. Maybe not to actually attack someone, but at least buy us a few precious moments to do something in an unfortunate situation. For now, he's our big teddy bear, and we're totally ok with it!

 

[Sam Erin]

Great thread, with lots of good info. 100% serious question here- are there people on this forum who want their Dobe to literally go head-to-head with an intruder, if the situation ever happened? If my Dobe died protecting me from someone, I think I would regret not protecting HIM for the rest of my life. No one on this thread has said this, but I've seen it recently, something like "I want a Dobe to protect my house and property while I'm at work." Really? You want your Dobe to die so your jewelry or TV doesn't get stolen? All I want from my dog is to first give a vocal warning that something is not right, and of course to be a visual deterrent. But you ignore those two signs, then you will be meeting my pistol, b/c I'll be damned if I let my Dobe get near an obviously deranged person. Maybe it's different for people who do not want to have guns in their homes, or who don't want an alarm system for some reason. Well I'm just ranting now. I'm done.
OP- if you don't think he will bark at appropriate times, you could always try a non-threatening sign that would still get the point across, such as "Please don't let the Doberman out." It's possible that since you knew the pizza guy was coming, your Dobe could tell you weren't surprised, therefore no need to bark.

 

[Beaumont67]

I've heard once:
- if a person hears a sound 1 mile away / dog can hear a 4 mile range.
But when it comes to smell, dog nose is 1000x better than a human.

Maybe, Nova could smell the pizza, walking up the driveway / and decided, that seems pretty darn good to him...Yum-Yum.

Great discussion & input, from ALL...good thread Beau79.

Sam Erin - I believe its a "dobe alert the family" thread, when someone steps on the property or knocks on the door.
- not in the true sense of the word or meaning of protection & dog not backing down, from intruder
(and discussing the differences, is part of the expectations to understand)

 

[Amelia_]

My boy has started showing a few guarding signs at 6 months, however I'd probably agree that if it came down to it he wouldn’t protect me at the moment. I think its widely thought that a Doberman begins its guarding at 2 years, however as you've said the level it will guard to varies.

I think sometimes dogs will surprise you though; my friend had a Labrador that was SO placid, it would lets the kids pull its tail and sit on it, then one day she was walking in the woods and noticed a man she didnt like the look of following her and the dog went crazy, chasing the guy away. I used to walk a rottie which would also get worked up if I was nervous of someone.

Re the barking at the door bit, I've had to train both of my dogs to do that. I would either catch them in the act of barking, or wind them up to bark and then say 'speak' or 'vicious' then 'good boy!' when they barked, getting them to bark on command. Then when someone knocks at the door, I say 'Speak' and they know that they should bark at the door. I think its quite a useful thing to have, as I believe barking can be a deterrent. The police over here use the 'speak' command too.

 

[Tperkins]

@Sam Erin,

I 100% agree with what you said. If ever their was a threat in my home, I would fully consider it my battle(not my dogs). Their was a thread a while back where I had this discusion with someone wanting a manstopper.

The point I was trying to make in my prior post was that many people consider a darg barking and baying someone off who is not even a threat "protecting". I also agree that a dog will feed off of their owner, this can go both ways as well. I really should get a video of what Rocko looks like when he is in the yard and alerts to something. He really doesn't do much as far as barking inside, but that was trained into him.

To the OP- I can remember gettign Rocko when he was 10 weeks old and his first time in the back yard with my son. He acted the same way as he doesn now. All the alerting behavior ect. have not changed, he has done it since his first time in the yard.

 

[eisel]

TThat Doberman look alone is good enough. I'm on edge a bit because last year, we had 2-3 break ins in our neighborhood. If anyone does scope out our home long enough, they'll see that a dobe does guard this home.

good chance it is the same person breaking into the homes in your neighborhood. Also, look at the homes broken into....any dogs? Just like a mugger, someone breaking into homes is looking for the easiest target. A home that has no dogs and one where the house is vacant on a reliable time schedule. Just having the dog is the deterrent no matter if he is a big teddy bear or not. The thief does not know your dog and is probably not going to risk getting mauled or even bitten when he can just enter the house that is empty next door. Also, apartment/condo complexes, nearly 100% of all break ins occur from someone that knows the people living there(just a little fact for folks that live in an apt or condo). A true professional not worried about the dog (or the alarm system) will have cased the house well and have to know there is serious worth inside to risk the dog bite or risk a break in when people are home.

 

[blueberry]

My boy is 3 and he think everyone who comes in the yard or knocks at the door is his "long lost love." Now if we ever have an inturder that is a rodent.....they will be in trouble!

 

[KevinK]

And if your dog ever senses a threat, you'll know the difference if he reacts... Dakota, who swears she's 3 times bigger than she is goes into a VERY different mode if there is a bear or someone shady around. You learn the difference, after you see it. She has one heck of a scary grumble for her size... Few months back, we had a friend over, and they brought their dog. Dakota is about 32 pounds now, and the other dog was about 100 or so. Dakota started grumbling, our friends were saying "Omg, our dog has never made sounds like that" not even realizing it was Dakota lol. It was such a distinct sound...

In the summer, we went out the back door, and there was a mama bear and 3 cubs right there, on the back patio. The sounds that came out of Dakota literally stood the hairs on my neck up. And the other day, we were doing some bitework in the yard, she dropped the wedge and did that same grumble, twice... I know that grumble means something is around, and we stopped and went inside.

Anyways, point is, I can remember these 3 times where Dakota reacted differently, and that's it. She gets excited, and makes noise when she sees people, but this was different, and I've never heard anything like this in any other situations. They know, and will react accordingly, then it just becomes a question of what will they do under that pressure.

With Dakota's background, we had to do quite a bit of confidence building. If we didn't do that, I'm quite sure she would have tucked her tail and went the other way in these few situations. She was pretty timid when we got her, and even still, in certain situations she will be unexpectedly startled looking. It's gotten tons better, you almost never see that anymore, but who knows what could have happened to her as a puppy that would make her like this. A confident dog is one that will only react when it's called for, and a dog that over-reacts in situations that don't call for it is probably reacting out of fear, which I have seen many, many people confuse with "protectiveness". This is not a good dog to have, and dogs like this need to be taught more confidence.