Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I want to start out by stating that I do not believe anyone should be breeding for Albino's! The question I have is with all the reading I have done about Z factored dogs, my understanding is the only way to get albino's is to breed 2 Z factored dogs together. If this is true? Then why aren't normal colored Z factored dogs treated the same way VWD Carriers are? As with VWD as long as one of the dogs is VWD Clear then breeding a VWD carrier to that dog is acceptable, atleast that is my understanding? So wouldn't the same be true, that if one of the breeding pair was not z factored then there should be no chance of that pair producing albino's?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,775 Posts
Z factored dogs are horribly inbred. I once found a great article on z factor dobes but darned if I've been able to find it again. There is no way to justify breeding a z factored dog especially since the breed has so many health issues already.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,246 Posts
I want to start out by stating that I do not believe anyone should be breeding for Albino's! The question I have is with all the reading I have done about Z factored dogs, my understanding is the only way to get albino's is to breed 2 Z factored dogs together. If this is true? Then why aren't normal colored Z factored dogs treated the same way VWD Carriers are? As with VWD as long as one of the dogs is VWD Clear then breeding a VWD carrier to that dog is acceptable, atleast that is my understanding? So wouldn't the same be true, that if one of the breeding pair was not z factored then there should be no chance of that pair producing albino's?
Since both vWD and albinism are straightforeward recessive traits as far as it goes the answer is yes, if you breed a albino carrier to a non carrier of the gene you won't get albinos.

The problem is that while we have a genetic test for vWD and you can test breeding pairs to determine who is carrying what and avoid breedings that would produce more vWD affected dogs you can't do this with the albino.

THERE IS NO TEST for the albino gene at this point. So breeding dogs listed as Z (meaning that they have a potential for carrying an albino gene) just lets the gene loose in the general population and produces more possible Z dogs.

There is no way to determine for sure that a dog does or does not carry the albino gene at this stage of the game. The Z list is the only way that the breeders have of know if there is a possibility that a dog "may" carry the albino gene--and no one should be breeding a known possibility of a deleterious gen--in my opinion at least.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Since both vWD and albinism are straightforeward recessive traits as far as it goes the answer is yes, if you breed a albino carrier to a non carrier of the gene you won't get albinos.

The problem is that while we have a genetic test for vWD and you can test breeding pairs to determine who is carrying what and avoid breedings that would produce more vWD affected dogs you can't do this with the albino.

THERE IS NO TEST for the albino gene at this point. So breeding dogs listed as Z (meaning that they have a potential for carrying an albino gene) just lets the gene loose in the general population and produces more possible Z dogs.

There is no way to determine for sure that a dog does or does not carry the albino gene at this stage of the game. The Z list is the only way that the breeders have of know if there is a possibility that a dog "may" carry the albino gene--and no one should be breeding a known possibility of a deleterious gen--in my opinion at least.

Thank You, your statements make sense. Again I have no intention or desire to breed any z factored dogs! I just wanted to understand more about it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Z factored dogs are horribly inbred. I once found a great article on z factor dobes but darned if I've been able to find it again. There is no way to justify breeding a z factored dog especially since the breed has so many health issues already.
If you find it by chance please send it to me?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
716 Posts
There are statements in which even though your dog is a Z-Factored carrier and not an affected albino, they still have health issues which not Z-Factor do not.

They say "temperament" is affected & poor eyesight is two of them...

Who knows though?
The DPCA did the test-study years ago and since then well, the inbreeding of "being very close" to get a white Dobe, is not so close anymore.

The question could also be, could the inbreeding problems have been "worked out" by now with not inbreeding within the “colored Z-Factored Dobermans?”
Humm, I don't know...

Could a "Once inbred Z-factored Doberman going back years ago" finally produce great, great, great grand-dobes, whose pups are not as symptomatic as her "mutant family" by never having been inbred again?
I would have to say yes! Evolution at it’s finest LoL!

Well a few months ago the DPCA would not allow an Albino Rescue Doberman to compete in Agility...

They are holding to the fact that all Albinos are mutants, cannot or have not won a title...

I am not a member of DPCA but I can only think of two reasons to not allow an albino to compete...

# 1. Because they do not want to make Z-factored Dobermans popular; which I could understand because of the other underlining health problems they are said to come with…

Or #2. This is not as nice… They don’t want to admit that an Albino could and can win a title and is a worthy Doberman.

I’m learning daily about health issues with Dobermans and I would think breeders would first think of the quality of life associated with bringing healthy pups into the world…

However you are aware that a Z-Factored Normal Colored Doberman CAN COMPETE in everything minus Conformation right! So they must not be "That Mutant Like."
:tongueout3:
 

·
Back Off
Joined
·
1,721 Posts
^^ I would be careful with a post like that Hermewmew. It almost comes off as supporting Z-factored Dobes, and I know plenty who read this forum will take it that way.

Regardless of politics, ifs ands or buts, NO ONE should be breeding a dog that could potentially have health issues, and NO ONE should be breeding a doberman who is not going to improve the breed in any way shape or form. Reputable breeders set out to improve the breed, not to 'make dogs who could or could not be healthy'.
 

·
Super Moderator
Hairy Dog, RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Joined
·
26,422 Posts
If a good gene has been lost from a bloodline because of inbreeding for another factor, that gene will not magically reappear when the inbreeding is stopped. Evolution doesn't work that way.
 

·
Strong Ears
Joined
·
174 Posts
HerMewMew,

Do you have no respect for the breed of Doberman Pinschers? Do you not realize all the time and effort that went into making the Z-factor list.

There are people that have put that list together that have since passed. Good, honest, sincere people that love the breed of the Doberman Pinscher.

Do you not realize that breeders from over 150 years ago struggled to breed out a white spot on the chest of Doberman Pinschers? When I was a kid about 40 years ago, their was a litter that I saw with my parents that had disqualifying white on them. And that litter was from Top Winning Champions at that time. (Those Dobes were never bred because of that!)

Albinos are NOT a white spot! The Z-factor CAN'T be bred to because it is a gene deformity! Albinos are like THE DEVIL! (Good angels GONE BAD!) The people that breed them don't give 2 cents about Doberman Pinschers and they certainly don't care about the quality of life that the dog lives! All they care about is the almighty dollars that the NEW FADE Doberman can get them!

You starting this thread truly DISGUSTS me! You are NOT my friend! And I would NEVER allow you in my HOME, so when you visit your relatives in Texas, DON'T stop here.
 

·
Got mutt?
Joined
·
13,839 Posts
Well a few months ago the DPCA would not allow an Albino Rescue Doberman to compete in Agility...

They are holding to the fact that all Albinos are mutants, cannot or have not won a title...

I am not a member of DPCA but I can only think of two reasons to not allow an albino to compete...

# 1. Because they do not want to make Z-factored Dobermans popular; which I could understand because of the other underlining health problems they are said to come with…

Or #2. This is not as nice… They don’t want to admit that an Albino could and can win a title and is a worthy Doberman.
HerMewMew, the sport was Obedience, not agility. The venue was the DPCA National, and the albino in question (Vixen's Apperition Sprite) did compete in the Top Twenty Invitational, due to an oversight (as I understand it) on the part of DPCA in not reading their own by-laws closely enough.

In answer to your staements about why the DPCA frowns on albinos and Z-factored dogs are ...

#1 They do not want to make them popular, becasue albinism is a genetic defect, and the dogs have health problems associated with it.

#2 This statement makes as much sense as saying that they don't want to admit that ANY rescued Dobe can win a title.

As for albinos being "mutants", well they are. Doxies, Corgies, and Bassett Hounds are mutants, also. So are Rex cats, Scottich Folds, and Sphynx.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
716 Posts
If a good gene has been lost from a bloodline because of inbreeding for another factor, that gene will not magically reappear when the inbreeding is stopped. Evolution doesn't work that way.
No I understand about the Albino gene reappering, I was just saying the other "Problems" associated with the normal colored Z-Factored Dobermans.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
716 Posts
Thank you for the responce, it was Obedience!
I remember seeing the petition to allow the Albino to compete, and I was not aware that they had let her.

Do you know what her results were?


HerMewMew, the sport was Obedience, not agility. The venue was the DPCA National, and the albino in question (Vixen's Apperition Sprite) did compete in the Top Twenty Invitational, due to an oversight (as I understand it) on the part of DPCA in not reading their own by-laws closely enough.

In answer to your staements about why the DPCA frowns on albinos and Z-factored dogs are ...

#1 They do not want to make them popular, becasue albinism is a genetic defect, and the dogs have health problems associated with it.

#2 This statement makes as much sense as saying that they don't want to admit that ANY rescued Dobe can win a title.

As for albinos being "mutants", well they are. Doxies, Corgies, and Bassett Hounds are mutants, also. So are Rex cats, Scottich Folds, and Sphynx.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
716 Posts
Oh! I think you all are mis-reading what I was trying to say....
I am in no was for producing albinos!!! AT ALL!!!

My responce was that even though a normal colored Z-FACTORED is in-fact normal colored it's said to "still have problems" associated with HAVING THE Z FACTOR...

What I was also implying or rather questioning was could some of the "problems with once having been so inbred" (within the normal colored Z-factored dobermans) could not be as prevliant now that they are not so closley inbred now? The shyness, The poor eyesight? the fear biting...


I'm sorry if you all thought I was trying to promote breeding albinos, I'M NOT AND NEVER WAS OR WOULD!!! I was only trying to explain again that just because they are not ALBINOS, the Z-FACTORED normal colored Dobermans ARE SAID TO STILL HAVE PROBLEMS AS WELL...




OP The question I have is with all the reading I have done about Z factored dogs, my understanding is the only way to get albino's is to breed 2 Z factored dogs together.

OP Then why aren't normal colored Z factored dogs treated the same way VWD Carriers are? As with VWD as long as one of the dogs is VWD Clear then breeding a VWD carrier to that dog is acceptable, atleast that is my understanding?

OP So wouldn't the same be true, that if one of the breeding pair was not z factored then there should be no chance of that pair producing albino's?




There are statements in which even though your dog is a Z-Factored carrier and not an affected albino, they still have health issues which not Z-Factor do not.
They say "temperament" is affected & poor eyesight is two of them...
Who knows though?
The DPCA did the test-study years ago and since then well, the inbreeding of "being very close" to get a white Dobe, is not so close anymore.

The question could also be, could the inbreeding problems have been "worked out" by now with not inbreeding within the “colored Z-Factored Dobermans?” Humm, I don't know...

Could a "Once inbred Z-factored Doberman going back years ago" finally produce great, great, great grand-dobes, whose pups are not as symptomatic as her "mutant family" by never having been inbred again?
I would have to say yes! Evolution at it’s finest LoL!

Well a few months ago the DPCA would not allow an Albino Rescue Doberman to compete in Agility...

They are holding to the fact that all Albinos are mutants, cannot or have not won a title...

I am not a member of DPCA but I can only think of two reasons to not allow an albino to compete...

# 1. Because they do not want to make Z-factored Dobermans popular; which I could understand because of the other underlining health problems they are said to come with…

Or #2. This is not as nice… They don’t want to admit that an Albino could and can win a title and is a worthy Doberman.

I’m learning daily about health issues with Dobermans and I would think breeders would first think of the quality of life associated with bringing healthy pups into the world…

However you are aware that a Z-Factored Normal Colored Doberman CAN COMPETE in everything minus Conformation right! So they must not be "That Mutant Like."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
716 Posts
Again, I just want to apoligize for the confusion I caused with thinking I was supporting the breeding of the albinos. I was only trying to explaine that they don't have to be white to have "other" problems.

Please accept my apology DT... :respect2:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,246 Posts
Oh! I think you all are mis-reading what I was trying to say....
I am in no was for producing albinos!!! AT ALL!!!

My responce was that even though a normal colored Z-FACTORED is in-fact normal colored it's said to "still have problems" associated with HAVING THE Z FACTOR...


HerMewMew,

This isn't quite how it works. ALBINO's--have additional health problems beyond those of a normal colored dog. A lot of the information about albinism comes out of human studies which have gone on for a long time and in other species in which albinism is common (lab rats and mice). There is a known problem with albino's who have some abnormalities in the brain which have been known to affect temperament, they also commonly do have poor eye sight and are much more prone to skin cancers than normal colored dogs.

A normal colored dog who is on the Z registration list will have what ever health issues it will have--that is to say those of any other Doberman. It will not have the specific issues associated with the albino Doberman because it isn't an albino.

It will also likely have the additional not so wonderful conformation and temperament associated with the fact that they are ALL pretty inbred to this day and all start with ONE bitch who wasn't terribly well bred in the first place.

What I was also implying or rather questioning was could some of the "problems with once having been so inbred" (within the normal colored Z-factored dobermans) could not be as prevliant now that they are not so closley inbred now? The shyness, The poor eyesight? the fear biting...
They are still pretty inbred--you can get albino's by breeding two albino's or breeding an albino to a Z list dog or breeding two Z list dogs--the hope of the albino breeder is always that the Z list dogs they use are still carrying the albino gene. If they are you can get more albinos. But it takes a long long time to breed something decent from something that didn't have much merit except a mutant color. Why on earth would you bother to start from a half mile back of the actual start line?

I'm sorry if you all thought I was trying to promote breeding albinos, I'M NOT AND NEVER WAS OR WOULD!!! I was only trying to explain again that just because they are not ALBINOS, the Z-FACTORED normal colored Dobermans ARE SAID TO STILL HAVE PROBLEMS AS WELL...
I understand what you were trying to say but you weren't doing very well making the point. Until such time as we actually have a genetic test for the albino gene and can actually KNOW that some of the Z list dogs no longer carry it I think it's irresponsible to even think about using them--their general quality isn't such that they should be used in a breeding program in any event.

There are statements in which even though your dog is a Z-Factored carrier and not an affected albino, they still have health issues which not Z-Factor do not.
Let me repeat what I said above. ALBINO Dobermans have problems that are related to the fact that they are albino. The normal colored Z list Dobes don't have those particular problems because they are NOT ALBINO.

They say "temperament" is affected & poor eyesight is two of them...
Who knows though?
Who knows? Well geneticists who study this sort of thing know--on top of the fact that the temperament was evidently an issue with the normal colored offspring (that means poor temperament period) the albino Dobe who, because they are albino--has brain abnormalties which also evidently result in temperament problems. Ditto for the eye problems (common to albinos of any species) etc.

The DPCA did the test-study years ago and since then well, the inbreeding of "being very close" to get a white Dobe, is not so close anymore.
When those test breedings and studies were done the bottom line is that ALL the albino Dobes since then have descended from one bitch--Shebah. And what I said earlier in this post is that it's still very close--it started out being done by if you ran an albino pedigree through one of the pedigree programs that has an inbreeding coefficient section you'd find that the COI is still VERY HIGH!

The question could also be, could the inbreeding problems have been "worked out" by now with not inbreeding within the “colored Z-Factored Dobermans?” Humm, I don't know...
I don't know if you've ever gone and looked at some of the dogs used by the albino breeders--if you go on breeding for one specific trait (an unfortunate mutation at that) you aren't going to improve on much. They just plain aren't very good Dobes.

Could a "Once inbred Z-factored Doberman going back years ago" finally produce great, great, great grand-dobes, whose pups are not as symptomatic as her "mutant family" by never having been inbred again?
I would have to say yes! Evolution at it’s finest LoL!
Bear in mind that Z list normal colored Dobermans aren't going to be symptomatic of whatever you think they might be symptomatic of. They'll have whatever problems they might have from their background breeding. Do I think that the normal colored Z list dogs may look better these days--maybe--but that's sort of a big so what? What's the point of using marginal dogs--even if they do locate the albino gene so that you can test for it and weed out carriers and give those that aren't regular AKC numbers so that they can be bred if someone wants to start out with marginal breeding stock--what's the real point?

However you are aware that a Z-Factored Normal Colored Doberman CAN COMPETE in everything minus Conformation right! So they must not be "That Mutant Like."
LOL, yeah, I'm very aware of it. And to tell you the truth I've seen some Dobes in Obedience and tracking (and now Agility and Rally) who weren't really very good specimens. Some of them probably aren't even as good as a couple of Z list Dobes that I've seen--but it's still a big so what? The whole point is that you don't know who carries an albino gene if they are normal colored and who doesn't. It's sort of a beside the point issue.

The mutation is specifically in the color (or actually the non-color)--it's a recessive gene--takes two of them--one from each parent to make an albino--and you can show a normal colored Z list dog in conformation too. I've seen a few of them over the years. What you can't show in conformation is "dogs of a not allowed color"--that's the albino.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,938 Posts
My opinion only here.....

I can't understand why someone would waste time and money in showing a Z list dog in conformation. Conformation class is where potential breeding stock competes and no one who cares about their breeding program breeds their dog to a Z list dog....... only bybs keep that fault/mutation going. Not only do they not care about correct conformation but wouldn't even know it if it bit them in the ass.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Z factor

We have owned 3 dobermans, but 2 were rescues and 1 we bought from a what I guess was a "back yard" breeder". We loved them all and all were wonderful in their own way. We just lost our last one and are looking for a puppy. We do not want to breed or show this dog. We want a family member that we can spoil and love. In looking for puppies, we have found a lot of very expensive show dogs. Since we're not looking to show, we are starting to wonder if we should pay the money for one. I have found an adorable puppy whose mother is white and father is black and rust. I have read about the Z factor and agree these dogs shouldn't be bred. But if we are never going to breed the dog and are having her spade as soon as possible, what health risks are there with a puppy like this?

Thanks!
 

·
Sirai Dobermans
Joined
·
2,100 Posts
We have owned 3 dobermans, but 2 were rescues and 1 we bought from a what I guess was a "back yard" breeder". We loved them all and all were wonderful in their own way. We just lost our last one and are looking for a puppy. We do not want to breed or show this dog. We want a family member that we can spoil and love. In looking for puppies, we have found a lot of very expensive show dogs. Since we're not looking to show, we are starting to wonder if we should pay the money for one. I have found an adorable puppy whose mother is white and father is black and rust. I have read about the Z factor and agree these dogs shouldn't be bred. But if we are never going to breed the dog and are having her spade as soon as possible, what health risks are there with a puppy like this?

Thanks!
When you line the pockets of a terrible "breeder" who breeds that white bitch, then you are REWARDING him/her for breeding irresponsibly. It isn't about whether you're going to breed the pup in the future or not. You're a direct factor in continuing the cycle.

As for the bold, there are pet quality puppies in every "show" litter. The $ you pay for a dog from a reputable breeder is going to be more than a BYB because they're doing the health testing, raising the puppies properly and breeding to improve the breed-not just to line their pockets.
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top