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Discussion Starter #1
I am annoyed at my vet and I was hoping that you guys could clear up my confusion. Dude is getting neutered next week and the vet would not do the surgery without testing him for vWd costing me $175. I know through his parents that he is clear but the vet said that he has seen dogs be clear through parentage but still have it. Is that possible?
 

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Sea Hag
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I am annoyed at my vet and I was hoping that you guys could clear up my confusion. Dude is getting neutered next week and the vet would not do the surgery without testing him for vWd costing me $175. I know through his parents that he is clear but the vet said that he has seen dogs be clear through parentage but still have it. Is that possible?
If even one parent is vWD clear via dna test,then it would be genetically impossible for any of the offspring to be vWD affected.

I would bet your vet is relying on the ELISA blood test, which is notoriously inaccurate in diagnosing vWD. If that's the test he's been using, then it wouldn't be surprising at all for an affected dog to be the result of two "clear' parents-because the parents probably *werent* clear..due to the high error rate with this test.
 

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I am annoyed at my vet and I was hoping that you guys could clear up my confusion. Dude is getting neutered next week and the vet would not do the surgery without testing him for vWd costing me $175. I know through his parents that he is clear but the vet said that he has seen dogs be clear through parentage but still have it. Is that possible?
`It is possible if he was talking about the ELISA test it is possible. But the parents were probably not really clear. They were more than likely carriers.

If it is the DNA test then no it is not possible.

That does not mean the dog will not have bleeding issues for other reasons but no not vWD factor.

I feel your pain. When my old girl Valkyrie was sick a few years ago I had several heated arguments with ER and Specialty vets about vWD. I refused an ELISA test knowing she is a carrier by DNA

One vet told me - yes but that could change over time. I honestly looked at him and said so you are telling me DNA can change - he said - yes. I said so tomorrow my Doberman's DNA could change and she could become a Poodle? He did not appreciate that.... It amused me though.

Sue
 

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Discussion Starter #5
So if the parents were DNA tested then it is accurate if they were ELISA tested then it is inaccurate? I will check my paperwork but my sire is from Bell'lavaro and Vicky Brachfeld and she is very picky about health testing for her dogs and any bitches they are bred to.
 

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Sea Hag
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`It is possible if he was talking about the ELISA test it is possible. But the parents were probably not really clear. They were more than likely carriers.
Yes, exactly what i meant!

BTW, Sue-as far as your vet thinking a dog's vWD status could change-this is one of the theories that Jean Dodds was publicizing back in the day, before the dna came along-"acquired vWD". She had to find *some* way to explain the fact some of the dogs testing vWD clear via ELISA test would have clotting problems.
 

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Sea Hag
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So if the parents were DNA tested then it is accurate if they were ELISA tested then it is inaccurate? I will check my paperwork but my sire is from Bell'lavaro and Vicky Brachfeld and she is very picky about health testing for her dogs and any bitches they are bred to.
There's always a small chance of human error in dna testing, but that error factor is literally thousands of one percent...IOW, very very unlikely.

To give you an idea of how inaccurate the ELISA test could be, one of my bitches was ELISA tested three times, this was before the dna test came along. She got a different result each time..pick one and I had a piece of paper saying she fell into that category: clear, carrier, affected.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I just checked and both parents are clear through DNA. That means I just wasted $175! Why do I always feel like I know more then my vets? I drive an hour to this vet because a really hate the ones around me. They are really wonderful in other ways but for the price I am paying I expect more!
 

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I am annoyed at my vet and I was hoping that you guys could clear up my confusion. Dude is getting neutered next week and the vet would not do the surgery without testing him for vWd costing me $175. I know through his parents that he is clear but the vet said that he has seen dogs be clear through parentage but still have it. Is that possible?
NO!! If tested via DNA.

If your vet is unfamiliar with the DNA test get another vet who is!
 

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I just checked and both parents are clear through DNA. That means I just wasted $175! Why do I always feel like I know more then my vets? I drive an hour to this vet because a really hate the ones around me. They are really wonderful in other ways but for the price I am paying I expect more!
You need to go back to this vet, show him the DNA test, remind him you already said the dog was clear and demand a refund!

I have successfully done this with several puppy buyers who even armed with DNA results were told the same thing you were. One was charged almost a thousand dollars for a spay on a DNA CLEAR bitch. The vet charged her for an Elisa test AND ordered plasma for the spay and the owner had shown him the DNA CLEAR certs on both parents. He refused to listen to her...until I had a chat with him ;) LOL

This stuff makes me sooooo irritated! Good luck to you. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I read an article on vetgen that was run in Doberman Digest and I am more confused. Case 2 states that a DNA clear dog has an issue that caused them to delay surgery. What would cause that? Also, is says that all dobermans before any surgery should have their clotting checked.
Should I go ahead and have my vet run this test before surgery?

Here is a part of the article
Case #2. The owner of a six year old apparently normal Doberman bitch, and whose DNA vWD test indicated she was not "at risk", insisted her veterinarian run a clotting time prior to surgery. The clotting time was longer than normal and a subsequent platelet count revealed below normal numbers approaching cause for concern. Surgery was canceled but follow-up counts on succeeding days revealed steadily decreasing numbers. IMT was suspected and referral to a veterinary teaching hospital was requested by the owner. All tests at the university proved inconclusive and although platelet counts were low on admission, they began to rise inexplicably. The bitch was spayed uneventfully when her counts returned to the normal range. Though no diagnosis was ever made, had the spay been done during the period of prolonged clotting time and low platelet counts, surgical complications would have been likely and a favorable outcome placed in jeopardy.
Of course, where possible, in the myriad of bleeding disorders, the underlying cause of hemorrhage must be eliminated as in the examples of infections and drug reactions. There is no substitute for the most thorough laboratory work-up and subsequent precise interpretation. Thomas Fuller, MD stated in Gnomologia (1732), "A disease known is half cured."
Assuming Alexander Pope has stopped spinning in his grave and hopefully has come to rest in his original position, it is imperative to remember his admonition in the opening sentence of this article. We have attempted to explain, by oversimplification, an exceedingly complex but well understood group of diseases with special emphasis on vWD in the Doberman. And the practical application of all this?

ALWAYS have bleeding time tests run on Dobermans prior to every elective surgical procedure.



Thanks for all of the info.
 

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Sea Hag
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I read an article on vetgen that was run in Doberman Digest and I am more confused. Case 2 states that a DNA clear dog has an issue that caused them to delay surgery. What would cause that? Also, is says that all dobermans before any surgery should have their clotting checked.
Should I go ahead and have my vet run this test before surgery?

Here is a part of the article
Case #2. The owner of a six year old apparently normal Doberman bitch, and whose DNA vWD test indicated she was not "at risk", insisted her veterinarian run a clotting time prior to surgery. The clotting time was longer than normal and a subsequent platelet count revealed below normal numbers approaching cause for concern. Surgery was canceled but follow-up counts on succeeding days revealed steadily decreasing numbers. IMT was suspected and referral to a veterinary teaching hospital was requested by the owner. All tests at the university proved inconclusive and although platelet counts were low on admission, they began to rise inexplicably. The bitch was spayed uneventfully when her counts returned to the normal range. Though no diagnosis was ever made, had the spay been done during the period of prolonged clotting time and low platelet counts, surgical complications would have been likely and a favorable outcome placed in jeopardy.
Of course, where possible, in the myriad of bleeding disorders, the underlying cause of hemorrhage must be eliminated as in the examples of infections and drug reactions. There is no substitute for the most thorough laboratory work-up and subsequent precise interpretation. Thomas Fuller, MD stated in Gnomologia (1732), "A disease known is half cured."
Assuming Alexander Pope has stopped spinning in his grave and hopefully has come to rest in his original position, it is imperative to remember his admonition in the opening sentence of this article. We have attempted to explain, by oversimplification, an exceedingly complex but well understood group of diseases with special emphasis on vWD in the Doberman. And the practical application of all this?

ALWAYS have bleeding time tests run on Dobermans prior to every elective surgical procedure.



Thanks for all of the info.
The point being made in that part of the article is that vWD isn't the only clotting issue seen in dogs. At one point they mention IMT, immune mediated thrombocytopenia, which is another blood problem that can cause clotting issues.
 

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You need to go back to this vet, show him the DNA test, remind him you already said the dog was clear and demand a refund!

I have successfully done this with several puppy buyers who even armed with DNA results were told the same thing you were. One was charged almost a thousand dollars for a spay on a DNA CLEAR bitch. The vet charged her for an Elisa test AND ordered plasma for the spay and the owner had shown him the DNA CLEAR certs on both parents. He refused to listen to her...until I had a chat with him ;) LOL

This stuff makes me sooooo irritated! Good luck to you. :)
This! The older I get, the less patience I have with "my way or the highway" vets. :mad:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I called them this morning. The Dr. was not in yet but I told the receptionist that they need to stop the test because the vet is misinformed. I have not heard back from them about getting my money back so I will do a follow-up call tomorrow to make sure that I get a refund. I also printed out a ton of info on this subject to leave with him.

My biggest frustration is that I can not seem to find a vet that I like. I am a dog trainer and I have great resources except for a vet. They either over vaccinate, don't know what titers are, scare my dog, disagree with raw..... the list goes on. I really do like this vet that I am seeing now except for this one issue.

I just wanted to thank everyone on here for all of their knowledge. I don't know what I would do without you!
 

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sufferin succotash
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Have you talked to Vicky about this? Perhaps she can recommend a dobe-wise vet in your area. Also, Tiburon Dobermans is in CT, although not sure if they are near you. Perhaps contact them to inquire about a vet.

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Aside from this, that and the other... I am not sure what average mark-up on veterinary diagnostic testing is, but Cornell University (which has the only lab I found which offers ELISA testing for vWD) charges a $28.50 for the test... add on the blood draw fee and sample shipment, and the $175 is still mind-boggling to me.
 

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I haven't posted for a while but thought I would share my experience with this test...

When I picked up my pup from the vet who cropped her ears they told me they wouldn't spay her unless she was vWD tested...so i ordered the test from Vetgen and the results came back clear. April 1st Indie was spayed (by a vet of my choosing) and when i went to pick her up he said that she definitely had vWD...i showed him the certificate stating that she was clear and he didn't care...he was adamant that she had it which kind of ticked me off. anyways, on April 6th i got a call from the President of Vetgen telling me that an error had been made (a vial mix up) and that Indie was definitely affected...

I guess what i'm saying is that mistakes happen whether it's human error or computer error...I am very fortunate that I have an awesome vet who recognized the signs and now treats her accordingly...
 

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So, I'm in the same boat. I brought Dexter to the vet yesterday for another bout of pano. They wanted to do xrays the next time it happened. Okay, fine. So I get there and they tell me that they need to do the vWD test before they will neuter him (he's scheduled for 12/22 and this is the first they told me of this!)

I'm a new dobie owner...and although I've done a lot of research, I didn't do enough on vWD. I felt like I had no choice but to do it since it would take a couple weeks for the results. I almost fell on the floor when the estimate was for $198!!! And now it's too late to do anything else. I can only hope that since my vet told me about the link between pano and vWD, that the insurance company will consider it diagnostic and not wellness so it will be covered.

Sorry for the hijack - but my question is, what's the difference between the results of a buccal swab vs. a blood test? Is blood test "better" for pre-surgery screening?
 

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I can only hope that since my vet told me about the link between pano and vWD, that the insurance company will consider it diagnostic and not wellness so it will be covered.

Sorry for the hijack - but my question is, what's the difference between the results of a buccal swab vs. a blood test? Is blood test "better" for pre-surgery screening?
If there is any link whatsoever between vWD and pano, that's news to me... I suspect you either misunderstood or your vet is confused.

The swab is sent away for genetic analysis. You get back either a clear, carrier or affected status.

The blood test measures the clotting factor present at the time the blood was drawn. I might consider it to be a better pre-surgical screening test, but you could get pretty much the same information by making a little nick on the gums and determining how long it took for clotting to occur. I have a carrier who has much more of a tendency to bleed excessively than my affected dog ever did... if she were scheduled for surgery, I would either have an ELISA test or a clotting time test run before I would allow surgery to be done.
 
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