Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
RockhillK9
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have fallen in love with this amazing breed and am looking for my 2nd doberman. This one I would like to maybe try in the show ring. I am taken back that a reputable breeder of many years has breed and is offering puppies from parents that are both vwd carriers. Am I wrong, or doesn't that mean statistically 25% of the pups could be affected?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,150 Posts
Vwd is the least of our worries in the Doberman breed. Most affected are not clinically affected. I would hope a breeder who does this type of breeding would be testing the each puppy. More importantly, make sure there is good longevity in the pedigree, that the parents are fully health tested and the breeder is breeding champions, not just champion blood lines. This type of breeding will also produce clears. If u don't want an affected, but u like the breeding, make sure the puppies are tested and pick accordingly. I would rather have an affected than a puppy with cardio in the first couple generations.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,748 Posts
How old is your boy? Most breeders won't consider selling to you until your dogs closer to 2 years old. Otherwise you'll have too much on your hands and chance getting littermate syndrome as well as losing all of the training you've put in. If you're wanting a buddy for your dog I would encourage you to think of fostering an older dog for a while until your boys old enough.

And I def. know it's an urge that's hard to resist so I did a lot lot lots of research searching for that perfect puppy. Only to have fate drop him in my lap.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,701 Posts
Here is a bit of information, you may find interesting.

Litter #1 - Carrier x Carrier = 9 Puppies. 2 Affected, 3 Clear, 4 Carrier
Litter #2 - Carrier x Carrier = 10 Puppies. 0 Affected, 4 Clear, 6 Carrier

All puppies were vWD tested prior to going to new homes and the puppies vWD status was stated in the contract thus, owners were made fully aware of vWD status.

The bitch pictured in my signature is one of the Affected puppies from Litter #1. I have nicked her nails, she has cut herself, had a papilloma surgically removed and 4 weeks ago whelped a litter of 8 puppies. Without a single issue. She is genetically Affected rather than Clinically Affected.

When we weighed the pros and cons of doing these breedings, the health and longevity in the pedigree cinched the decision to go ahead with it for us. As an example the Grandparents of both of these litters were/are long lived without health issues. Paternal Grandsire PTS @ 11-1/2 Cancer. Paternal Grandmother still alive and other than some arthritis, well @ age 13. Maternal Grandsire alive and in good health @ 8 years of age. Maternal Granddam PTS @ 11-1/2 Arthritis. This health and longevity is consistent throughout the pedigree.

Breeding #1 produced 2 Champions (the only 2 shown), both vWD Affected.
Breeding #2 also produced 2 puppies that will be shown, 1 is pointed from the puppy classes. Both are expected to finish their CH titles this year.

Ask the breeder why the breeding was done, you may just find that the health in the Pedigree outweighs the vWD carrier status. vWD isn't killing our dogs and if breeders avoid breeding Carrier x Affected or Affected x Affected, it is rarely an issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,468 Posts
Re-read jdd and Sheilian Dobes posts in this thread. I absolutely agree with them--I've had mostly Dobes since 1959 and until 1996 there wasn't a good test for vWD and I never had a Dobe who anyone might have thought had bleeding issues.

Affected really doesn't mean that a Doberman will absolutely have clotting issues and the gene pool is small enough that to not be willing to breed carrier (yes to other carriers and certainly to clear dogs and even if there is a good reason to do so to an affected dog) to carrier we would be weeding out a huge number of dogs from the gene pool--there are not enough clear dogs to only breed a clear to a carrier, muchless a clear to a clear.

I've had puppies from carrier x carrier breedings (mine turned out to be carriers when tested) but litter mates who were affected when tested also were only genetically affected and not clinical.

I'm more concerned about cardio and CVI and even liver disease and kidney disease.

Cardio, liver and kidney problems can kill and have the potential to do so young--CVI may cause a dog to live in so much pain that the kind thing to do is to let them go via euthanasia rather than let them live on in pain.

And even though there is a prospect of 25% affected puppies from a carrier x carrier breeding--there is a 50% chance that they will be carriers and even a 25% chance that they'll be clear.

But you realize that those are statistics and depend on large number analysis so in any given litter you probably won't get exactly those numbers.

While I was looking something else up in the OFA site I ran into a litter that was a carrier to carrier breeding and the breeder had clearly had the whole lot of them tested--10 puppies--9 clear and 1 carrier.
 

·
RockhillK9
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Thank you all for your feedback. I will ask about the breeding further and I'd she plans to have all puppies tested as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,701 Posts
Thank you all for your feedback. I will ask about the breeding further and I'd she plans to have all puppies tested as well.
If you are concerned, you can go a step further and tell the breeder that you do not want an Affected puppy. Most shouldn't have an issue with that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SieYa and dobebug

·
Registered
Joined
·
416 Posts
A carrier pup is as far as I personally would go. I understand it's a small issue in the dobie world but it's still a issue. I just can't see breeding into a possible known issue no matter how great the breeding pair possibilities are. It seems irresponsible to me since we as dobie owners have enough genetic problems to worry about it.

In my eyes it's like someone trying to sell me a car at full price with a possible engine issue. Then saying it could be a problem but there's a good chance it won't be. No thanks.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,283 Posts
VWD is not a problem till it is. The vast majority of VWD affected Dobermans will never be clinically affected, however, there is a small risk that they will develop a problem. Talk to the breeder and tell them that you are concerned and would want them all DNA tested with the right to refuse a affected puppy if you wish. As a pet owner, I would be much more concerned about the health background for other killer diseases such as DCM, cancer and Liver disease. There are no guarantees, but a healthy pedigree with good longevity would be more important than VWD to me. That said, simple things like spay/neuter surgeries can be very expensive depending on your vet. You might want to talk to your vet about it. Many vets don't have a good understanding about VWD in Dobermans (there are 2 different types of VWD - Dobes have the less serious type), and will charge an arm and a leg for simple surgeries. Plenty think that a carrier has an issue - when they don't at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
One other thing I'll add. vWD in Dobermans is a splice site mutation. The long and short of it is that normal von Willebrand's factor is made roughly 10-20% of the time (5-10% for each gene). That's enough clotting factor to prevent most vWD affected Dobermans from being clinically affected.

For more information see the VetGen article on vWD and the genetic test for it here: https://www.vetgen.com/canine-ref-vwd.html
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
Top