[luvmyoakley]

Does anyone here have a pup w/ Von Willebrands?

 

[Fitzmar Dobermans]

probably several do but most will never even know it. Most Dobermans who are affected are not clinically affected and it will never be a problem.

Velma is a carrier by vetgen

Louise is a clear by vetgen

 

[lyngr]

probably several do but most will never even know it. Most Dobermans who are affected are not clinically affected and it will never be a problem.

Velma is a carrier by vetgen

Louise is a clear by vetgen

So this is not something to worry about before spaying?

 

[luvmyoakley]

I got Stoli approx. 5 1/2 years ago... When we had his ears done, the vet told me that that suspected VWD because he bled extremely bad and wasn't healing fast.. we never had him tested because we figured this was true.. When we got Oakley just a few months ago, that was the first thing I had done due to the fact that I didn't want to take any chances of her not making it. The breeder I got her from had a complete genetic health guarantee.. well it turns out she is a "carrier" with a percentage of around 15 I think.. The vet that found this out said they wouldn't crop her ears or spay her... I found another clinic near my home and decided to get a second opinion.. He said he would have no problem doing it if we did a blood transfusion... (they make a new plasma now specifically for vwd affected dogs)... BUT he did both surgeries with laser... there was no cutting what-so-ever... she did FABULOUS... The scar on her belly is barely an inch long.. never seen it so small before... but anyways... I was just wondering how many dobermans vwd affected... dont know a whole whole bunch about it..

 

[luvmyoakley]

Oh and I forgot to say that the breeder thought I was lying about the results and just trying to get my money back... I really could care less about the money, its just the fact that she completely lied about it... I also found out that someone else that got a pup from her about a year ago ended up having hereditary mange... is there aNYTHING someone can do about a person like this... who are breeding registered dogs with health problems? I would think the AKC could suspend registering pups from them or something?

 

[brumwolf]

Does anyone here have a pup w/ Von Willebrands?

No thank heavens,luckily the breeders i go to tend to produce unaffected dogs by selection.

 

[Murreydobe]

is there aNYTHING someone can do about a person like this... who are breeding registered dogs with health problems? I would think the AKC could suspend registering pups from them or something?

People can be suspended if there's a conviction from their local court system for cruelty. Other than that, the only way someone can be suspended is if they fail to follow the AKC guidelines about recordkeeping. The AKC is a registry, nothing more.

 

[Murreydobe]

I was just wondering how many dobermans vwd affected... dont know a whole whole bunch about it..

The latest estimate I saw (from 2005) suggests around 26% of all dobermans are vWD affected. So it's certainly not uncommon. One of my dogs is affected..he's never had any kind of clotting difficulty, which is usually the case.

 

[Okie-dobie]

No thank heavens,luckily the breeders i go to tend to produce unaffected dogs by selection.

Same here.

 

[Murreydobe]

No thank heavens,luckily the breeders i go to tend to produce unaffected dogs by selection.

European dobermans appear to have a far lower rate of vWD than dogs from American lines, so it's certainly been easier to obtain a vWD clear doberman from this genepool. That's not uncommon with isolated genepools, and it works both ways..American dogs have a much lower rate of HD, and virtually NO issues with eyes.

But there are more clear dobermans in this country all the time. While I think our breeders could work towards the goal of never producing another affected puppy again faster than they are, the reality is it's not that difficult to find a clear puppy here if you're an educated buyer. The latest puppy I bought (Razzle) is clear.

 

[dobebug]

I have two dogs who are gene tested carriers and one who is gene tested clear for vWD.

vWD is a clotting disorder but I'd like to point out that there is an incredible amount of ignorance even within the vet community about vWD and testing for it.

There is a gene test which is very accurate (even though occasional errors have been made due to bad testing techniques and in one case, bad reagents--these are rare and I've not heard of an error in the genetic test in several years now). There is also a serum test--the Elissa Serum Assay--which is not very accurate--what it measures is the amount of vWD factor present--it is subject to all sorts of variation due to stress, elevated temperatures, being in season etc.

The possiblity genetically is that a Dobe would be either Affected (two copies of the gene) a Carrier (one copy of the gene) or Clear (no copies of the gene). HOWEVER there are about 15 other possibilities of things that might make a dog bleed. Most genetically affected Dobes are not clinically affected (that is to say they will not have undue bleeding that is due to their vWD status) and have no problems with surgeries. Carriers will not bleed due to vWD nor will clear dogs.

Vets that refuse to do surgeries on carrier dogs and clear dogs without extraordinary measures like whole blood transfusions etc have not done their homework. What would make much more sense would be for them to do a clotting test (there are a couple of very common ones) the day of the surgery to make sure the dog is clotting normally on THAT day,.

It infuriates me to read about vets who charge enormous prices to neuter carrier males or spay clear bitches. Unfortunately I hear about it all too often.

Dobes have Type 1 vWD--a very mild form of the disorder. Scotties have Type 3 and for them Affected would be a virtual death sentence.

Dobes have been spayed and neutered, had their ears cropped, had their tails docked and dew claws removed, had holes in their hides stitched up in the past with very FEW incidences of bleed outs. That was before vWD was identified. For the record an older dog with any sort of liver problem is more likely to have bleeding issues than an older dog who is affected by gene test (but who does not have a history of being clinically affected.

GRRRR!!!!! Just makes me grit my teeth when I hear about someone paying $900 for a neuter on a clear male pup.

 

[Murreydobe]

Vets that refuse to do surgeries on carrier dogs and clear dogs without extraordinary measures like whole blood transfusions etc have not done their homework. What would make much more sense would be for them to do a clotting test (there are a couple of very common ones) the day of the surgery to make sure the dog is clotting normally on THAT day,.

It infuriates me to read about vets who charge enormous prices to neuter carrier males or spay clear bitches. Unfortunately I hear about it all too often.

Dobes have Type 1 vWD--a very mild form of the disorder. Scotties have Type 3 and for them Affected would be a virtual death sentence.

Dobes have been spayed and neutered, had their ears cropped, had their tails docked and dew claws removed, had holes in their hides stitched up in the past with very FEW incidences of bleed outs. That was before vWD was identified. For the record an older dog with any sort of liver problem is more likely to have bleeding issues than an older dog who is affected by gene test (but who does not have a history of being clinically affected.

GRRRR!!!!! Just makes me grit my teeth when I hear about someone paying $900 for a neuter on a clear male pup.

I agree. I also think it's true with affected dogs who have never had any kind of clotting issue in the past. Over and over again we see vets getting owners all worked up and worried, and paying ridiculous prices for minor surgical procedures, just because the dog is genetically affected, but asymptomatic.

Obviously if a dog has a history of clotting problems, you need to pull out all the bells and whistles and proceed carefully with any kind of surgery. But as I said in another thread, my asymptomatic affected dog (who was also monorchid) was neutered without any hysteria, without the use of any blood products. I *did* have the neuter done at a clinic that stored fresh frozen plasma. But there was no way I was going to pay to have cryo flown in for a neuter on a dog that had no history of clotting problems and had a normal BMBT on the day of the surgery.

As Dobebug said, this disease has been around for many, many years and millions of dogs have lived perfectly normal lives, had routine surgeries, etc. regardless of vWD status.

 

[Murreydobe]

But there was no way I was going to pay to have cryo flown in for a neuter on a dog that had no history of clotting problems and had a normal BMBT on the day of the surgery.

BTW, just wanted to mention that I've never shyed away from spending the big bucks on vet care for animals when it's *warranted*. For the last six months I've been doling out close to $700/mo for meds and bloodwork on a dog with a liver problem, no end to that in sight, either..this might go on the rest of his life, which I hope is a good long time. And just last year I spent close to $10,000 treating a mini donkey with a life threatening disease. So when the situation truly calls for exteme measures (and dollars), I'm there, without a word of complaint.

But a routine surgical procedure on an asymptomatic vWD affected dog who presents with normal clotting times? My own experience in the breed, and with the individual dog combined with my vet's experience with the breed equals a feeling that it's not a situation that calls for any kind of extreme measure.

 

[luvmyoakley]

I paid around $1100.00 for Oak's ears to be cropped and for her to be spayed (and I had her microchipped)... but that's because they charged me an arm and a leg for the plasma... the vet had just told me a story, right before Oaks surgery was scheduled, about a doberman pup they had just done who they almost lost due to VWD... I knew that I wanted to have the test done... that was very important to me.. but i dont know that i would have went about the surgery as i did... (plasma transfusion) etc. if he hadn't told me that story.. I trusted him and his decision because i wanted to make SURE my little girl was going to be ok... oh well, doesn't matter now because it's done and she's very healthy, however i might have done things a bit different after reading all of this... too bad I discovered you all a little too late but I VERY much appreciate all of the info!!!

 

[Murreydobe]

I paid around $1100.00 for Oak's ears to be cropped and for her to be spayed (and I had her microchipped)... but that's because they charged me an arm and a leg for the plasma... the vet had just told me a story, right before Oaks surgery was scheduled, about a doberman pup they had just done who they almost lost due to VWD... I knew that I wanted to have the test done... that was very important to me.. but i dont know that i would have went about the surgery as i did... (plasma transfusion) etc. if he hadn't told me that story.. I trusted him and his decision because i wanted to make SURE my little girl was going to be ok... oh well, doesn't matter now because it's done and she's very healthy, however i might have done things a bit different after reading all of this... too bad I discovered you all a little too late but I VERY much appreciate all of the info!!!

Well, everyone has to work within their own comfort levels.

The mutation that causes vWD is what's called a "leaky" gene-which means that vWD affected dobermans make between 5-20% of the normal amount of von Willebrands Factor-this is usually enough to allow normal clotting in most situations.

If a clotting problem occurs due to vWD, it's usually as a secondary complication to something far more serious. It's important to do annual thyroid checks on an affected doberman, because it appears there's a link between low thyroid and increased risk of clotting problems. Poor immune system function can increase the risk as well.

My affected dog is the one now battling the liver issues..proper liver function is necessary for normal clotting ability all on it's own. So if Rush had to have surgery *today*, it's possible the vWD could add an additional element of risk to an already risky situation. In addition to the standard BMBT clotting test, the vets would do coagulation panels on him prior to any kind of surgery. THIS is the kind of situation where I'd think the expense and trouble of bringing in cryoprecipitate might be warranted, based on the results of the coag panels. This is a whole different kettle of fish than a neuter on an otherwise healthy dog.

But in emergency situations, fresh frozen plasma can also be administered, and it also will provide short term clotting ability. So it's important for owners of affected dogs to find out which clinics in their area store frozen plasma, not all of them do.

 

[alwayshadpets]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brumwolf
No thank heavens,luckily the breeders i go to tend to produce unaffected dogs by selection.


Same here. Ditto for me.

 

[jdmomkb]

Reese was tested at 5 months because he lost a lot of blood when he lost some teeth. His test came back at 5%. My vet told me we couldn't neuter becasue he would bleed out on the table. I got a lot of good advice here and spent the next couple months doing research and interviewing vets. They all told me he would bleed out. I ended up finding a vet that was more knowledgeable about the vwd. He contacted Ohio State and everyone agreed that cryo was not needed for a neuter. He did test for clot time and was prepared in case a problem arose but everything went fine. He bled a couple minutes longer than normal but never came close to needing a transfusion. He lost a lot of blood with his teeth but he has gotten a couple small cuts and clotted fine.

When I see blood I freak, but I am much more comfortable since I found a vet I trust. I also checked to find out which emergency clinics carried the needed blood products in case we ever have a problem on a weekend or at night.

 

[dobebug]

The clinic where I work has three donor dogs who have been tested for compatability (dog blood types are even more complicated than people's blood types) so in a pinch, two of them are always there and their owner lives close to the clinic if she had gone home and one of my Dobes is the third dog (the clear one). So we have the capability and a couple of vets who actually know how to do transfusions (not all do) if necessary.

In addition to the local availability of blood (whole fresh) Portland, Oregon has a very good emergency clinic who also has donor dogs available (they have a big blood donor program for both cats and dogs) as well as fresh frozen plasma. I think I recently heard that one of the big specialty clinics (who also has an emergency service available 24/7) actually stocks cryoprecipitate--but I'd have to check that out.

I agree with Murreydobe--I'm quite willing to pay for treatment as needed but not for something that isn't. There are way too many vets who have really not done enough investigation into the vWD problem with Dobes--generally it's NOT a problem at all.

We have started getting in the odd Doberman who is actually not a patient of ours because thier owners have started looking for second opinions and estimates on surgery (ordinary stuff for puppies--spays and neuters) and since I have Dobes they have been forced <VBG> to check out the real problems of vWD or be stuck listening to my spiel about vWD in the Doberman and reading reams of material about it.

Last summer we neutered a puppy whose owner had been quoted $1,250 for a neuter and microchip. His regular vet had done an Elissa Assay and it came up with figures so high the dog was probably clear but certainly at least a carrier and still wanted to order cryoprecipitate AND have plasma on hand). I think we charged something like $230 and we are regarded as an expensive clinic because we require IVF for all surgeries that are done under general anesthesia. And that included a microchip with registration prepaid.

 

[lanabana]

My dog has vWD - his Elisa tests came back at 7%. I am currently waiting for the VetGen test to come to get more certainty. What is the BMBT test? Bumpy had a bleed time check done yesterday via toe nail clip and it took 5 minutes which the vet says is borderline (3-5 minutes is ok). I have a thread already posted, so I am sorry to repeat myself, but to the person inquiring about vWD,here is the decision that I have made. I am having the vet order two units of cryoprecipitate to have on hand - I personally, would rather be safe than sorry. If that ends up being a waste of a few hundred dollars, at least I will have the peace of mind that I was prepared in the event that he needed it. Also, UC Davis and another veterinary school (I can't remember which one, sorry) suggested a Chinese herb be taken one week prior to the surgery - fogive my spelling on this - but what I understood was Yunnan Baiwao by a manufacturer called Pyao - I am going to downtown L.A. to get it this following weekend. I may be getting carried away, but I always prefer to be on the safe side in anything, so......

I also experienced what someone else mentioned - a breeder that did not believe me. I, as well, was not upset primarily about the money, but was upset that someone did not test their dogs and that they were adamant that their dogs did not have it.....

 

[JavasMom]

Our vet had Java tested for vWD before she was spayed, everything proved to be ok.