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I am finding more and more that the reason BYB are still used is because most of the "real breeders" are arrogant and inflexible. I trust that you are knowledgeable about the breed however how I train my dog, what i feed my dog, and how i would like him to look cosmetically should be my decision. No disrespect to anyone on the board if you feel you are different from my opinion but when looking for my new puppy i found the majority to be so. When i finally chose my breeder she was very personable which was different then my experience with the rest but when the puppy was born I found her to be very forceful with her opinion of how the dogs crop should be, what food i should be feeding him, and who i needed to use for training. I understand many of you look at these puppies at your children and i trust your "suggestions' but it pissed me off that she agreed to how I wanted the crop to look yet just went and did what she wanted anyway.

Sorry for the vent...
 

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Look at it this way... At least she cares. On the other hand, if in 5 months or 5 years something goes wrong would you rather not even be able to find your breeder? Or the sire/dams medical history?

Think of it like the overbearing parents who probably annoy everyone around them vs the ones who aren't involved in their kids lives at all.
 

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I am finding more and more that the reason BYB are still used is because most of the "real breeders" are arrogant and inflexible. I trust that you are knowledgeable about the breed however how I train my dog, what i feed my dog, and how i would like him to look cosmetically should be my decision. No disrespect to anyone on the board if you feel you are different from my opinion but when looking for my new puppy i found the majority to be so. When i finally chose my breeder she was very personable which was different then my experience with the rest but when the puppy was born I found her to be very forceful with her opinion of how the dogs crop should be, what food i should be feeding him, and who i needed to use for training. I understand many of you look at these puppies at your children and i trust your "suggestions' but it pissed me off that she agreed to how I wanted the crop to look yet just went and did what she wanted anyway.

Sorry for the vent...

I can understand your frustration if you and the breeder talked about how you wanted the ears done and there was some sort of agreement and it was disregarded. If she was going to do it a certain way anyway, she should have just told you it's going to be the way she sees fit. I don't fault that attitude of a breeder in general though. How the dog looks is of concern for them in case they have to deal with rehoming the dog later not to mention any dog out there from them is a representation of their dogs. Something to keep in mind though is that 1) the ears might look different right now than they will once your pup grows into them and 2) (along the same lines) a skilled cropping vet will do what looks good with headshape etc. What you wanted might not have looked right when it came down to it.

As for the other stuff, food and training, I think it would be good for you to definitely consider that information but don't take it as gospel. A lot of what they have to say is useful. I won't lie though, in some cases with some breeders they are a bit whack a do about some things and are dead set that's how it has to be. If you talk to 5 different breeders you might get 5 different "this is THE way to do it" responses. I would listen to what they have to say and combine it with other information/advice you find to decide what's best for you and your dog.
 

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I am not sure why any good breeder would leave it up to the prospective owner to decide on what kind of crop you wanted. Breeders usually have a crop that fits their ideal and would not consider deviating from it. Some might have a pet crop and a show crop but there are so many ear croppoing styles that you can't just let everyone decided for themselves.

So had you gone with a good breeder at least you would have known what you were getting. Because good breeders have experience with certain dog food they do tend to promote it as they know their dogs do well on it. We have studied nutrition and Dobes don't always do well on just any food.

I don't think they can require it but usually make very strong suggestions based on years of experience.
 

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A lot of what you said and mentioned are "suggestions" from the breeders. Suggestions aren't requirements unless it's in a contract.

I think that a lot of the breeders that might come across that way (pushy, do this, do that) are acting on their years of experience. Any reputable breeder is going to have a boat load of information to give you. They're only going to recommend the best product, crop, food, toys, trainers etc. because they know what works and what doesn't.

It all comes down to experience. Sure, a BYB can have a lot of experience, but their experience is aimed more towards the customer and doing what's right for them. A reputable breeder is not only doing what is right for their customer, but more importantly what is right for the breed.
 

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sufferin succotash
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I think you have to understand the blood, sweat and tears that each reputable/ethical breeder puts into their litters. Their dogs are representative of their breeding program and as such want the best for each dog they produce. They want you to be proud to say, "my Doberman is from xxx breeder".

I think you have to trust them and discuss any differences of opinion in a professional manner. Ask questions like, "can you tell me why you recommend a certain trainer?" or "in your experience is this food better than this food?"

There may be some that are inflexible but open the dialogue to ask more questions. Take full advantage of their knowledge and wisdom. :)
 

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Some breeders do seem to go a bit overboard. One of the requirements given to me by a breeder (not dobes) was to get another dog first, own it for 10 years, keep her updated on how we raise the dog throughout the 10 years and then she might be willing to let us have one of her dogs. Or...I could just go with another equally reputable breeder that will deny/accept us within a year or two. Most breeders don't go that far. You should expect hurdles though, it's not like they're selling you a dvd player. The wellbeing of the dogs come first.

Also like others said, they're just telling you what works most of the time. They have had x many years of experience and x food, x type of training, etc has worked well for them. They might have tested all types of foods and such before finding out what works so they're passing on their experience to you. If you end up feeding another type of food I doubt you'll be shunned...unless you go about it in a snotty way.

As for crops, if you don't like how the breeder's dogs look with their crops then go with a different breeder who you do like their crops? I think the crops are part of the breeder's package.
 

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Whenever I get a new pup, I ask the breeder what he has fed his pup on so I can continue it when we get home, (less upset). However, once home after a suitable period of time if the food is too cost prohibitive or is just not readily available (both cases here more often than not) I research what is the next best equivalent (affordable and available) and change, gradually.
As for trainers, well you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Advice is best given not forced down someones throat.

I am sure most of the breeders want only what is best for their pups.

On a side note, I personally do not understand why this issue with ear cropping is so emotive. If it were banned tomorrow by your Government how would you react? From what I understand it has no health benefit but rather it is cosmetic.
My Dobe has natural ears, he still looks like a Dobe, is a Dobe, I admit a Dobe with cropped ears is a more formidable sight, but here in my region of Spain cropping is banned, as is it in UK and I believe New Zealand etc. I guess it is a matter of choice until someone says you cannot do it.
 

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Whenever I get a new pup, I ask the breeder what he has fed his pup on so I can continue it when we get home, (less upset). However, once home after a suitable period of time if the food is too cost prohibitive or is just not readily available (both cases here more often than not) I research what is the next best equivalent (affordable and available) and change, gradually.
As for trainers, well you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Advice is best given not forced down someones throat.

I am sure most of the breeders want only what is best for their pups.

On a side note, I personally do not understand why this issue with ear cropping is so emotive. If it were banned tomorrow by your Government how would you react? From what I understand it has no health benefit but rather it is cosmetic.
My Dobe has natural ears, he still looks like a Dobe, is a Dobe, I admit a Dobe with cropped ears is a more formidable sight, but here in my region of Spain cropping is banned, as is it in UK and I believe New Zealand etc. I guess it is a matter of choice until someone says you cannot do it.
I won't even begin to open the can of worms of the debate over cropping or not. However, here it is still considered by many to be important. There may not be a health reason to do it, but looks-wise the original Dobe had this appearance and keeping with that is preferred. Most reputable breeders will do the cropping before the pups go home. There are several reasons for this 1) at the time they may not know which pups are going to be show and which are going to be pets for sure 2) they want to make sure that it is done properly and that they get the best aftercare possible and finally 3) even if they are going to be pets in the future if something comes up with the owner and the dog needs to be re-homed from what I understand, cropped dogs are easier to re-home. There are more reasons I'm sure but these are some of the big ones I've seen come up.
 

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joie de vivre
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Good breeders are making strongly worded suggestions in the best interest of their puppies. They really do hope for each of their puppies to go to the best, most loving homes they possibly can. The reality is sometimes a pup ends up in a home that doesn't always do what's right by the pup for whatever reason, no matter how well intentioned someone may be.

When a prospective buyer can agree to, or at least hear out and consider, a breeder's requirements/expectations/strongly worded suggestions, there's probably a better chance that puppy will get the life the breeder sees ideal and genuinely hopes for each puppy to have as opposed to going to a home who thinks they know-it-all to begin with, and therefore leave the breeder clueless on the pup's quality of life.

Some homes will rarely, if ever, contact the breeder after picking up their puppy. Some homes will have "issue after issue" with a puppy and the breeder will constantly be involved and trying to help. Some pups go to homes that everything goes swimmingly and all is well. And some pups will end up in homes that have issues and the breeder isn't contacted...and that's scary depending on how a puppy/dog may be handled. If the breeder is lucky that pup/dog may be returned for rehoming rather than continually subjected to sub-par treatment creating more problems.

The point is, those sometimes annoying expectations and attitudes one may encounter from breeders isn't about you (the general 'you'). It's about their puppies. By clearly setting the bar for minimum expectations they hope to be guaranteeing an acceptable minimum quality of life for their pups and dogs in any situation.

Try not to take offense. I find it refreshing to encounter people who go to the ends of the Earth to be responsible, involved, and accountable for the animals they produce even if they're abrasive at best in dealing with other people. It's a welcome change from seeing the outcome of careless and ignorant breeders, i.e. shelters full of animals, who everyone says are the nicest people in the world.

Quick note about the crop style...just my opinion, but I really prefer the breeder and their cropping vet to handle the crop style. I've seen some amazingly ****ty crops that were carefully selected by the pet owner and their craptastic cropping vet of choice. I'd rather see a drop ear on a Doberman any day than an ugly crop. I greatly appreciate good breeders who handle the cropping so I get a beautiful crop on my dogs without having to do a thing before time to post.
 

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I guess the question of, argument for/against cropping will go on for many years to come, I respect that some people feel it is a must for their dogs, I also expect those that argue for it to accept that some folk don't agree with it. My dogs tail was docked, in the area of Spain I live it is banned also, but because he was born just over the border in another state so to speak the breeder could do it. When he came to me (aged 6 weeks) it was still sore and bled occasionally. It took months for it to heal properly, so I fear it wasnt done by a qualified person or if it was he wasnt that careful about how it was done.

My Boxer's tail was docked so short that she literally has no tail whatsoever. We call it her pimple. It is so sad to see her trying to wiggle it and failing miserably because it is so short.
 

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I guess the question of, argument for/against cropping will go on for many years to come, I respect that some people feel it is a must for their dogs, I also expect those that argue for it to accept that some folk don't agree with it. My dogs tail was docked, in the area of Spain I live it is banned also, but because he was born just over the border in another state so to speak the breeder could do it. When he came to me (aged 6 weeks) it was still sore and bled occasionally. It took months for it to heal properly, so I fear it wasnt done by a qualified person or if it was he wasnt that careful about how it was done.

My Boxer's tail was docked so short that she literally has no tail whatsoever. We call it her pimple. It is so sad to see her trying to wiggle it and failing miserably because it is so short.
Sounds like it ws done wrong. Both my breeds are docked. I've seen a puppy docked at day 1. No cry, no wimper except to be removed from his mother. No bleeding at all. Within a few days the tail was fine. Because I run my dogs in field (even the Dobe) and I hunt with my other breed, I will always PRO docking for the protection of the tail. I've seen too many tail injuries that require amputation later in life.

I don't know how well you can see this, but this was the day the tail was done


Here it is about 17-18 days later
 
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I am helping out with a docked breed litter and seeing the dew claw/docking process up close and what's involved totally put me off.
How did the vet do it? It took less than a minute for his tail. I believe my vet clamps if I recall and then glues. The dew claws came out even quicker. And how old were the puppies? My vet prefers to do them at day 1 if healthy. This is the only one I've seen in person but again it appeared to be no issue for this puppy. He whimpered when we took him from his mom but that was it.

And again, we hunt. Tail injuries require amputation most of the time and from what I've seen it's much worse than a dock.
 

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Get the bunnies!
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How did the vet do it? It took less than a minute for his tail. I believe my vet clamps if I recall and then glues. The dew claws came out even quicker. And how old were the puppies? My vet prefers to do them at day 1 if healthy. This is the only one I've seen in person but again it appeared to be no issue for this puppy. He whimpered when we took him from his mom but that was it.

Pups had claws and tails done at 3 days, clamped and stitched... some of the pups had stitches for dew claws too as they had multiple claws (I didn't watch that being done). When they went back to have stitches out and scabs removed they screamed, not when you pick them up them but when it was being done... and there was pus and blood... some of them didn't seem to use their feet as much after having the dew claw scabs messed with, especially if they had really big scabs.

Though apparently in NZ the law is changing so docking will have to be done with bands like sheep tails... Imagine getting up and finding a whole heap of dead puppy tails in the whelping box *gag*
 

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This thread might just turn into a runaway train, and I'm jumpin' on! :)

I guess the question of, argument for/against cropping will go on for many years to come, I respect that some people feel it is a must for their dogs, I also expect those that argue for it to accept that some folk don't agree with it.
It's nice to see someone try to look at both sides of the argument. I really don't see an end in sight for this particular debate. I don't see the US banning cropping/docking, but I imagine if we do, we will be one of the last countries to do so. I think it would be a crying shame. Bans are absolutely out of control, and solve nothing. Instead of banning c/d, heavily prosecute those who do it the wrong way. Instead of banning pitty breeds, presecute those who fight train them and neglect and abuse them. Bans are completely pointless, and quite frankly, they seem to make the original problem worse.

Any Dobermans I own will be c/d (not including rescues in the c/d debate.) If it's banned, I'll import one from somewhere that still does it. The appearance of the Doberman is only one piece of the puzzle for why I love this breed.
1. appearance
2. temperament (protective, sweet, serious, goofy)
3. an active, medium sized, short coated working breed
These 3 factors are why I choose the Doberman as my favorite breed. If ANY ONE of these factors were removed, then the Dobe would NOT be my breed of choice. So no one can say it's shallow to be passionate about a breed's appearance- it's not only appearance, but a combination of things that make a person's breed of choice.
 

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Pups had claws and tails done at 3 days, clamped and stitched... some of the pups had stitches for dew claws too as they had multiple claws (I didn't watch that being done). When they went back to have stitches out and scabs removed they screamed, not when you pick them up them but when it was being done... and there was pus and blood... some of them didn't seem to use their feet as much after having the dew claw scabs messed with, especially if they had really big scabs.

Though apparently in NZ the law is changing so docking will have to be done with bands like sheep tails... Imagine getting up and finding a whole heap of dead puppy tails in the whelping box *gag*
Hmm they must have been done entirely differently. No return visit is required, No scabs and no stitches. However, Vizslas don't have multiple dew claws as a norm. That would turn me off too :(

I'd DIE if I found a box of tails!! Oh lordy NO!
 

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I've seen some amazingly ****ty crops that were carefully selected by the pet owner and their craptastic cropping vet of choice. I'd rather see a drop ear on a Doberman any day than an ugly crop. I greatly appreciate good breeders who handle the cropping so I get a beautiful crop on my dogs without having to do a thing before time to post.
THIS.....a thousand times THIS.....thankyou!
 

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From the breeders viewpoint, I couldnt imagine how awful it would be to spend decades on a breeding program- striving for the best, most beautiful, most ideal. You'd want to be proud of every puppy and be happy knowing that it's out in the world as a beautiful representative of the breed, and you wouldn't want to see pictures of the dog and think "damn, he'd really be a nice looking dog if his owner hadn't chosen that awful crop."

Also remember, most breeders haven't decided where puppies will be going until after the final evaluation, which would be after cropping. It's unlikely that a breeder would know which puppy to give which crop. One situation where this isnt true would be a byb, where they give little thought to which puppies go where and just pass the pups out by size, color, and gender.
 
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