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We've had our 12 wk old puppy Rommel for 4 days now, I just took him to the vet for a lookey-loo and 2nd set of shots. I purchased him from a breeder who has been in the Dobe breeding and training since the 70's. Rommel has sores right below his upper canine teeth, the breeder said no big deal it was from the puppy teeth, I wasn't concerned since he was purchased as a companinon dog, we aren't show folks, so we were specifically looking for that puppy that may have some sort of flaw that would count them out for showing/champion but be the perfect addition to our family, And I believe Rommel is. At the vet I asked him about the almost perfect circular sores, the vet was not quite sure, but thought that they may me a wart type infection??? anyone every hear of that??? I think Rommels bite is off and his teeth have somehow poked the inner lower lip area???. Would anyone know why he and his brother would be considered "companion" and not champion this is my non-educated thoughts? Rommel has a faint white stripe on his chest, he was much smaller than his companion grade brother, however Rommel weighs 16 pounds, his looks other than the white line are just like dobe pups I see in books, his brother had more of a triangler head with a longer muzzle, where as Rommels head is more square. Rommels parents are champions with all the trophies ect, to which I really don't care, I paid 1,000.00 for him, 1/2 of the normal breeder price that I purchased from. Rommel at him examine the vet said his lymph nodes were a little swollen, and then the vet asked me about the dewormer the breeder had given me, I explained it was Albon, he said that is not for worms but for a parasite called cochsidia, we did a poo test and Rommel does not have that, but gerardia and we just finished our meds. I hope I was not mislead in the health of this puppy. I love him so much, and I beleive he will be fine, but sores are quite puzzling???? How do breeders know "okay out of this litter of puppies, these one will not make it"???
 

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I am not an expert on the champion potential vs companion dog but some on here will know. Not sure about the parasite thing either. I would be concerned with mouth sores and swollen lymphnodes. I would get another opinion about the sores & lymphnodes just to be on the safe side. Keep us posted please.
 

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Sorry I can't help you out with the sores but I would definitly get another opinion being that your vet has not idea. I am a little puzzled why the breeder who let the pup go knowing that he had a health issue. The breed standard does allow for a small strip of white on the chest of the dobies so I do not see that this is what made your dobie a companion versus his brother. There are so many other factors that could have made him maybe not a show quality dog. A good breeder can determine early on what characteristics make for a great show dog.

The sores that you are speaking about could be something minor however I would not stop that for seeking additional information from another vet regarding it. No matter the reason for your dog not making the ring I'm sure you will love him just the same. :) :)
 

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Would anyone know why he and his brother would be considered "companion" and not champion ??
Without seeing the individual puppies no one would be even able to take a guess about that.

Litter grading is usually an educated guess, with the best litter grading being done by experienced breeders who know their particular line and how it matures. In many cases the difference between a show prospect and a puppy graded as companion quality is only apparent to a trained eye.

BTW-bites can go all over the place with puppies that age..it's not uncommon for the upper jaw to grow faster than the lower jaw, resulting in an extreme overbite until that lower jaw can catch up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The vet's thought is that if he did have the cochsidia that would explain the lowered immune system, and that would be why his lymph nodes are a little swollen. But he's got the people type, I guess Gerardia is people type? Anyway, I am going to look into a 2nd opiion on the sores, it is just odd that these sores are right below the upper canines that if you hold his lower jaw and lift up just a tad it matchs. I will try to post a picture of this. Thank you
 

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We've had our 12 wk old puppy Rommel for 4 days now, I just took him to the vet for a lookey-loo and 2nd set of shots. I purchased him from a breeder who has been in the Dobe breeding and training since the 70's. Rommel has sores right below his upper canine teeth, the breeder said no big deal it was from the puppy teeth, I wasn't concerned since he was purchased as a companinon dog, we aren't show folks, so we were specifically looking for that puppy that may have some sort of flaw that would count them out for showing/champion but be the perfect addition to our family, And I believe Rommel is. At the vet I asked him about the almost perfect circular sores, the vet was not quite sure, but thought that they may me a wart type infection??? anyone every hear of that??? I think Rommels bite is off and his teeth have somehow poked the inner lower lip area???. Would anyone know why he and his brother would be considered "companion" and not champion this is my non-educated thoughts? Rommel has a faint white stripe on his chest, he was much smaller than his companion grade brother, however Rommel weighs 16 pounds, his looks other than the white line are just like dobe pups I see in books, his brother had more of a triangler head with a longer muzzle, where as Rommels head is more square. Rommels parents are champions with all the trophies ect, to which I really don't care, I paid 1,000.00 for him, 1/2 of the normal breeder price that I purchased from. Rommel at him examine the vet said his lymph nodes were a little swollen, and then the vet asked me about the dewormer the breeder had given me, I explained it was Albon, he said that is not for worms but for a parasite called cochsidia, we did a poo test and Rommel does not have that, but gerardia and we just finished our meds. I hope I was not mislead in the health of this puppy. I love him so much, and I beleive he will be fine, but sores are quite puzzling???? How do breeders know "okay out of this litter of puppies, these one will not make it"???
Without seeing the "circular sores" you are talking about I am not at all sure what they might be from. But the fact is, as Murreydobe, already pointed out, that puppy heads grow and change pretty radically when they are the age your pup is. Upper jaws grow first--the lower jaw then catches up. I don't really look to see if the bite is "off" at 12 weeks--sometimes it is but it doesn't always mean anything. Occlusion can also look "off" if you happen to look at the mouth at a time when the head is going through a lenghening phase.

Warts in the mouth are not uncommon. Oral papillomas are viral, self limiting and contageous. But they rarely look like sores--they tend to look like raised, pinkish white or greyish white bumps with a knobby texture.

The difference between a companion and a show prospect is very subtle. Dobermans as a breed tend to have more consistent looks than most breeds. Unless you have a ton of experience grading litters I doubt that you'd be able to identify the fine points that make a breeder pick one puppy as a show prospect and another as a pet companion. Even experienced breeders make mistakes in grading litters and the differences between one puppy and another in a well bred litter are generally even smaller than they are in not so good breedings by one time, first time breeders.

Puppies often have swollen lymph nodes--if they have been exposed to a new virus or bacteria--even if it's not enough to make them obviously sick they will sometimes have swollen lymph nodes--generally the ones in the neck and arm pits. It's usually short term and there should be no more than mild swellilng It's not unusual--I just keep an eye on them--if they appear to be sick (lethargic, depressed appetite, not drinking) I get them into the vet immediately.

Coccidia is not uncommon--and Albon is usually used to treat it. I've had puppies come to me with coccidia--the breeder I get dogs from moved a few years back and it took awhile for her to figure out why all of her puppies seemed to have coccidia. Turned out to be from wild birds that roosted in trees that overhung the big exercise yards--now she treats for it and older dogs don't tend to pick it up so it's not such a big deal. Untreated it can be a pretty big deal and can make puppies or geriatric dogs very ill.

Giardia is also fairly common. When I did a lot of tracking I could count on the dog I took tracking to turn up with giardia several times a year. He drank out of farm ponds, field drainage ditches and puddles in fields and since there were also wild animals who drank and defecated in the areas he'd inevitably pick up giardia. After awhile my vet just gave me an eternal prescription for the meds used and I'd start him on the five day round of treatment when he had symptoms. Giardia is one of those parasites that vets think now is a lot more common than formally believed. Evidently a lot of dogs can carry giardia and be asymptomatic unless stressed--under stress conditions you can then get overt symptoms.
 

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But the fact is, as Murreydobe, already pointed out, that puppy heads grow and change pretty radically when they are the age your pup is. Upper jaws grow first--the lower jaw then catches up. I don't really look to see if the bite is "off" at 12 weeks--sometimes it is but it doesn't always mean anything. .
At 14 weeks, Razzle's bite was so overshot it freaked me out to even look at it..so I just didn't open up her mouth for a couple of weeks after that. The next time I looked, it was fine and remains so today.

LOL, but for awhile there..man oh man, her mouth kinda looked like a bottle opener or something. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank you so so so much Phew!!! I'm glad to know that the parasite thing is pretty common. The sores like you said are what the vet said the papiloma thing. It's just odd to me. contagious???? Where could he have gotten them? does this mean I could get them? I know it sounds silly, but just curious. These are pink/white as big as a tylenol. not really bumpy, not dry or grey like people warts you see on hands. But thank you, you've been helpful.
 

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Thank you so so so much Phew!!! I'm glad to know that the parasite thing is pretty common. The sores like you said are what the vet said the papiloma thing. It's just odd to me. contagious???? Where could he have gotten them? does this mean I could get them? I know it sounds silly, but just curious. These are pink/white as big as a tylenol. not really bumpy, not dry or grey like people warts you see on hands. But thank you, you've been helpful.


I received an email on this subject just last week. Seems a lady at a show we attended in Greensboro, NC found out her puppy dog had a case and she wanted folks to be aware of it. She also provided the following link for more information: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_viral_papillomas.html

“Dogs actually can get viral warts, but not from the same viruses that cause human warts. Dogs do not get warts from people, and people can’t get warts from dogs.”

My daughter is currently working/training with a breeder that lives near us. Since she was also at the Greensboro show I forwarded the email I had received to her. She sent me the following reply which you may find helpful:

HI, Phil,

Thanks for passing this message on. I am not concerned at this time.

Papillomas are common in puppies. They can be heavy inside and outside the mouth, even some may appear on the head and sides of the muzzle. They look like small cauliflower heads. They will generally drop off within 3 weeks.
They are unattractive, but not dangerous. I just leave them be rather then have them removed. I have found that Vit. E oil will help warts on the outside of the oral cavity to dry up quickly.

I would not think that Lena will be bothered due to her age. I just hope my puppies don’t get the virus as it is just a bother, especially if I have young puppies as I do now.

I do not use the “public exercise pens” set up for the dogs as I find walking my dogs and keeping their nose above ground at big shows is the best way to avoid the possibility of getting warts or infections. My vet says if one dog at a show has the virus, then just about every dog can be considered as exposed to the virus.
 

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Thank you so so so much Phew!!! I'm glad to know that the parasite thing is pretty common. The sores like you said are what the vet said the papiloma thing. It's just odd to me. contagious???? Where could he have gotten them? does this mean I could get them? I know it sounds silly, but just curious. These are pink/white as big as a tylenol. not really bumpy, not dry or grey like people warts you see on hands. But thank you, you've been helpful.
Skiser,

I don't think canine oral papillomas are transmissable from dog to human. If they were I'm sure I'd have had them at some point or another. As to where he could have gotten them....who knows...the most common method of transmission is dog to dog--evidently since the condition is viral and typically viral conditions spread by viral shed at certain phases I'd expect the ultimate answer is that he got them from another dog. There is a lot of information on the internet about canine oral papilomas. Google it and you can probably find more than you ever wanted to know.

Some people have them removed (day care facilities won't let a dog with active papilomas come to day care) but if you do nothing at all they run their course and disappear. I've never had a dog who had oral papilomas get them again.

The reason the papilomas in your puppies mouth look different than the ones you see on people's hand is because they are growing on different tissue and in a damp environment. Sometimes they get fairly huge--some are less bumpy looking than others--some of them, the big greyish ones are incredibly ugly but on a scale of dangerous conditions--they are really pretty benign.
 
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