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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry in advanced for such a long post.

I've been reading posts here and it looks like this is a great community for Doberman owners. I've been around Dobermans since I was a child and I am currently on numbers 4 and 5.

After losing our last dobe at age 14 (yes, 14!), we waited a year, then decided to get two puppies from a registered breeder; these are our first dobes from a breeder, the rest have been rescues.

We received two male puppies from the same litter; Zues and Apollo, now 19 months old. They are total opposites of each other, yet don't like to be away from each other even for a minute; they have never even fought, which we were concerned about when getting two males.

At 18 months, Apollo had to have his cruciate ligament (TPLO) removed (back leg). From what I understand it is a type of knee surgery similar to what athletes go through. Apollo is a very active (spastic) dog and we think he might have hurt it while chasing the ball. After a month of surgery and recuperation he is doing fine, but it seems like now he might have to have the same surgery on the other knee because of the same problem. Ugh!

At 8 months, Zues was diagnosed and treated for Demodex (twice). This is basically dog acne and it has left him with many scars on his cheeks. Since I had bad acne when I was a child, I just say this gives us both character.

Currently, at 19 months, Zues could no longer put weight on his right leg, so we took him to the vet. It turns out they found a four inch cyst in his right shoulder. Tomorrow they will be cutting out a piece of the cyst to test for cancer. Because of the size of the cyst the vet (a specialist) has already warned us of possible amputation of the leg. Zues is a more laid back dog, but loves to chase squirrels. He is a 100 pounds with a square head and overall just the biggest Doberman that I have had; he is not over-weight, just big.

Another issue with Zues is that you can feel his hips pop when you rest your hand on his hind end when he walks, so hip issues will be a given with him.

If you’ve made it this far, then I applaud you for listening to my ramblings.

My question is this: Are these just normal problems that I just have not run into before or are these problems because of poor breeding? I’ve never had these types of problems this early in life with any of my rescues. I’m wondering if the breeder is not up to par.

After 30+ years of owning Dobermans you get to know the breed and their health problems very well. I've never had these problems with any of our prior Dobermans; except for the usual hip issues that occur around age 10.

All opinions are welcomed. Thank you!

Joe
 

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Did the breeder provide any evidence of health testing of the parents? (especially hip ratings) I'm really sorry you are going through this with your boys.

also if your boy is 100 pounds and is not overweight, it's likely that he is oversize to the standard ...and that too could be contributing to his joint issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the quick responses.

I too believe this is an issue with the breeder. I was probably ignorant about asking for the hip ratings and "evidence" of health testing. We were told there were absolutely no problems and we did register both dogs with the AKC.

If this is a breeder issue, my main concern is making sure people are warned before using this breeder. I don't want other people to have to go through this because of poor breeding. I still feel a little guilty for buying them from a breeder instead of getting them from the rescue like our other dogs; maybe someone is teaching me a lesson here!

Thankfully, we are fortunate enough to be able to afford to treat these dogs, whereas most pet owners would have to put the dogs down because I don't think they could afford the treatments. Apollo's knee was just under $4,000.

Our vet tells us that Zues is not over-weight, but is just a large dog for his breed. He said he could lose about 5 pounds, but that's about it. If Zues does have to have his leg amputated, I am thinking that because of his size, it might be too much weight on just one foot. Am I over reacting?
 

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First of all as a breeder I would not let 2 babies from the same litter go to the same home. That being said, I keept 3 out of my litter. A whole other issue. The fact that your breeder would allow two males from the same litter to go to the same home speaks volumns for that breeder. You dodged a real bullet and got lucky!

A reputable breeder breeds to the standard, tests their dogs and doesn't breed a dog with a problem of any sort. I would guess this breeder has a history of joint and hip problems in their line and doesn't care about perpetuating a problem back into the breed.

It is obvious you are attached to these pups and will do anything within your power for them. I commend you for that.

I would discuss starting these dogs on a joint supplement with my vet and possibly look into a rehabilitation center where the vets dail with these issues on a daily basis. I would also keep these dogs as lean as possible if they were mine.

Good luck with them.
 

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I would definitely consider this an issue of poor breeding and not the norm for well bred Dobermans. I have an 18-month old male from a reputable breeder, and 'knock on wood', he has been a healthy, active boy from the day I brought him home at nine weeks. My dog is a small/standard sized male (~75lbs), so he has much less pressure on his joints than your guy!

Good luck to both your boys!
 

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I agree with everyone else about poor breeding, in reality a dog that is registered in AKC does not mean clean bill of health and great pedigree. If someone went to the pet shop or even a puppy mill and bought a dog and went online to register their new puppy on the AKC website they are allowed to.

BYB if they are dirty enough can make themselves look like reputable breeders, I was almost fooled until I found this website and the wonderful people here showed me the red flags. So I took my deposit back and backed out of picking up a puppy from the BYB and did some more research and found an ethical breeder that did health testing and much more.

Good luck with your boys, they sure have a family that really loves them. I hope things change for the better.
 

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I am so sorry you are having these issues and no, it's not normal for 19 month olds to be having so many health issues at such a young age.

I too have two over-sized male litter-mates and they are just over 4 years old now. Other than shots and neutering them both I've been fortunate to have had no other medical expenses. Although their breeder should have never sold me two males and litter-mates to boot, we have been luck in the health/temperament area so far...

I for one would love to know the name of the breeder that sold you these two boys. There is something obviously not right about what you are going through. Have you advised them of what is going on?

Also, would love to see some pictures of your boys!
 

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Sorry in advanced for such a long post.

I've been reading posts here and it looks like this is a great community for Doberman owners. I've been around Dobermans since I was a child and I am currently on numbers 4 and 5.

After losing our last dobe at age 14 (yes, 14!), we waited a year, then decided to get two puppies from a registered breeder; these are our first dobes from a breeder, the rest have been rescues.

We received two male puppies from the same litter; Zues and Apollo, now 19 months old. They are total opposites of each other, yet don't like to be away from each other even for a minute; they have never even fought, which we were concerned about when getting two males.

At 18 months, Apollo had to have his cruciate ligament (TPLO) removed (back leg). From what I understand it is a type of knee surgery similar to what athletes go through. Apollo is a very active (spastic) dog and we think he might have hurt it while chasing the ball. After a month of surgery and recuperation he is doing fine, but it seems like now he might have to have the same surgery on the other knee because of the same problem. Ugh!

At 8 months, Zues was diagnosed and treated for Demodex (twice). This is basically dog acne and it has left him with many scars on his cheeks. Since I had bad acne when I was a child, I just say this gives us both character.

Currently, at 19 months, Zues could no longer put weight on his right leg, so we took him to the vet. It turns out they found a four inch cyst in his right shoulder. Tomorrow they will be cutting out a piece of the cyst to test for cancer. Because of the size of the cyst the vet (a specialist) has already warned us of possible amputation of the leg. Zues is a more laid back dog, but loves to chase squirrels. He is a 100 pounds with a square head and overall just the biggest Doberman that I have had; he is not over-weight, just big.

Another issue with Zues is that you can feel his hips pop when you rest your hand on his hind end when he walks, so hip issues will be a given with him.

If you’ve made it this far, then I applaud you for listening to my ramblings.

My question is this: Are these just normal problems that I just have not run into before or are these problems because of poor breeding? I’ve never had these types of problems this early in life with any of my rescues. I’m wondering if the breeder is not up to par.

After 30+ years of owning Dobermans you get to know the breed and their health problems very well. I've never had these problems with any of our prior Dobermans; except for the usual hip issues that occur around age 10.

All opinions are welcomed. Thank you!

Joe
Hi JoeE, welcome to the forum.

I'm so sorry to hear you're having such troubling issues with your boys--they sound well-loved, and it's just heartbreaking to watch young dogs struggle, thru no fault of their own.

I agree with the others--sounds as if a poor breeding program and inadequate health testing of breeding animals are a great deal of what's behind your situation.

I rescued a red male who originally came from a BYB who to this day swears up and down has "no health issues whatsoever in [her] line," and even after myself and the rescue informed her that he died of DCM (inherited heart disease) at only AGE THREE, she still continues to claim to potential puppy purchasers that she has "nothing" wrong in her bloodlines.

No family should have to face things like this, due to breeder ignorance, carelessness, or even outright deceit and negligence.

This is why we are so passionate, on DT, about proper ethical breeding programs. Either buy from a great breeder, or rescue an unfortunate Doberman who's waiting for a home, but don't support folks who do things wrong.

Sorry that you stumbled into that, and are now learning the hard way--but huge kudos to you for being enlightened enough to see the mistake, and to continue to do your best for your dogs, while warning other unsuspecting potential buyers.

I think you're right to want to pass the word on, and if you feel comfortable with it, I agree with whoever suggested you name the breeder.

I also second the suggestion to find a good rehab center to work with, on the joint issues--esp. if one of your boys faces possible amputation. One of my Dobergirls is recovering from a severe injury to her right hind, and the certified rehab folks are amazing, and helping her so much.

Good luck, hope the pathology comes back okay and things look up for you all soon.
 

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My female is at the vet every 6 months for heart worm check and over all health check. No one saw or picked up on anything after being checked from a vet? 100 lbs is way toooo much for a male big boned or not. Please know we are here to help not tear you down this is only my opinion.........you are surrounded my some good advice...my prayers are for your dobes to be healthy..
 

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So sorry you are going through this. You might want to talk with your vet about getting your boys on a joint supplement. I have my older dog, Simon, on Dasuquin with MSM and it's really making a difference in his comfort and mobility.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts and advice through this.

We heard from the doctor today and the news was not good. The doctor said that he is 99% sure that Zues has Osteocarcinoma of the scapula (bone cancer). They have sent a piece of it off for biopsy and will know for sure next week. Currently the doctor has Zues on a Fentanyl patch for pain management.

It seems our options are limited. The doctor has informed us that there is a high probability that the cancer has already spread. Assuming the biopsy comes back positive; our initial option is amputation of the right front leg. According to the doctor, even if the leg is amputated, the recover period will be a few months. If the bone cancer has spread, then he estimates that Zues probably has 2–6 months before we will have to put him down.

My thoughts are that I’m afraid that even with amputation, by the time he starts to recover, he will already be in more pain. Unfortunately, I believe this would be just prolonging the inevitable.

We are bringing him home tomorrow afternoon to spend the rest of the week with the family and his brother. If the test comes back positive next week, we will have to evaluate Zues’ pain level and decide when we will make the awful decision to let him go.

On a related subject, I think everyone here has confirmed what I’ve been thinking over the last few months. This is definitely the results of poor breeding.

We purchased our dogs from a breeder in Florida named HappyDobermans dot com. I wasn’t going to name the breeder because I’m new here and didn’t know what the policy was. It actually feels good to mention their name and to let people know what we have gone through with this breeder. I would not want anyone to have to go through what we have been going through with both Zues and Apollo.

Can anyone recommend any actions that I can take to make sure the word gets out about this breeder? Is the AKC concerned with any of this information? Can the breeder be reported to any source? I don’t want to go on a slander campaign, I just want to get the word out and let people know what has happened to us.

A very special thanks to everyone here. You have helped our family out tremendously with your thoughts and advice. These dogs are part of our family (their like children) and it’s hard to see things like this happen. It’s great to have a site like this with friendly and knowledgeable members.

Update on Apollo: His leg is still healing and if he had his way he would be chasing the ball right now. I swear, next to Zues, the ball is his entire world, he loves it. Him and his brother sleep with each other just like puppies do; always have to be touching one another. This will be just as hard on Apollo as it will be on us.

I promise to start keeping these posts shorter! :)

Joe

UPDATE: FWIW Zues' father was Sampson and mother Cherry Bomb. Zues' AKC #WS33452302
 

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I so very sorry you're having to deal with this so early, when you should be getting to enjoy the rambunctious teenage years. :(

I don't want to sound harsh or uncaring, but if the test comes back positive it's maybe a blessing in disguise that it will be quick and relatively painless. I've just nursed my boy through a year of chronic illness and I wouldn't wish it on anyone (despite all the good times and extra love that year gave us). It takes everything out of you and then some.
 

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So sad and sorry to hear about poor zeus. my heart is breaking just from reading your posts. have you contacted the breeder and told her about the illness both dogs have? it might be generic in her line. when i lost my precious Zeus last year, i did intense research on breeders in my area for health testing. the one i ended up getting a pup from did all the tests, etc. however,he only has one testicle down, and neutering will endure a search surgery to locate the other one. everything happens no matter how much we try to get healthy dobermans. i am saying prayers that zeus bioposy comes back negative. good luck.
 
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