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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Cali just turned 5 months a couple of days ago and got all her vaccinations and deworming and etc, no infections, no sicknesses, perfectly healthy so I know she's not acting out because she's feeling bad. I walk her two times a day minimum, though usually a quick walk/play time in the yard during lunch as well, and its 1 & 1/2 hours in the morning and same thing at night. She has lots of toys and bones to play and chew on but usually goes for shoes or other things instead. All her adult teeth have started peeking but aren't finished growing so she's still teething. From when I first got her to now she's always had a knack for biting me and nothing has worked. For the past few months I've tried distracting her, replacing my hand with a toy (uninterested at all even if its her favourite one), whining and shrieking, time outs (throws a tantrum and destroys anything in the washroom, scratches the door), the good ol firm "NO BITE", and id be consistent with each strategy but nothing works. I've searched far and wide read various forums on other people's experience with puppy biting just to keep myself from freaking out but its been months and I'm tired of her biting. Even at 3 months she drew blood left scratches, now she's just over 50lbs with adult teeth and its only gotten worse. She's the friendliest dog to other people, the vets, strangers, anyone but me.

She'll be doing fine on a walk (when this usually happens) in the park and she will stop and jump and lunge towards me to bite me. I bring a tennis ball so I can either distract her or stuff it in her mouth but lately it hasn't been working. Today was one of the worst biting episodes, she stopped and started biting like usual and got angry quickly. I tried to give her the ball, even throw it and let go of the leash but no use, she ran towards the ball and turned around and ran right back and bit my ankle and toes as I was wearing sandals. Biting my legs is nothing unusual, she's bitten just about everywhere at this point even the ears and hair. I tried to stay still and she kept going so I eventually couldtn take the biting anymore, I quickly grabbed her harness to pull her down and hold her there until she calmed down but she squirmed and kicked and continued biting until I let go and then she would go for my arm and hands and anything. She eventually looked like she was calming down as I held her down the second time and I was speaking gently reassuring her and I let go and stood up and walked to grab the ball and she chases me down first biting my bum and then my calf and feet as I stopped.

She doesn't look like she's play biting, she looks angry and the chasing is not slow. Her episodes usually last about 5-10 minutes a time and have gotten as close as 3 times a day, or every walk. When she's done she walks perfectly fine, no barking or anything. I've just signed up for puppy classes but I'm worried that it wont go well because she doesn't listen to a word I say if theres even another person with me during training at home not to mention if theres other dogs she will stare for 20 minutes before she even remembers I'm there. I'm not sure if I'm overreacting or if missing something because I've had dogs before (not dobes) and I never had the issues I had with her. Not to mention how much of a nightmare it is to post her ears with her eating tape and biting me in-between her shaking the posts out every five minutes. No infections or anything, just hates having her ears posted and I've tried every trick in the book and tried to make it quick and all that, nada. She's potty trained and I let her out the other night for her potty break and she ran across the street into the neighbours yard and I had to carry her in my arms back. I don't know if she's just acting out these days and thats why the biting is more frequent or if this is somewhat normal and can be dealt with in puppy class. I'm hoping its the latter because if the biting gets any worse I'm considering getting a muzzle or a head collar for walks (I'm not that big or strong and her pulling and biting is far more than I can handle on my own for these walks) but I'm not fond of that idea because she wont really learn not to bite she just wont be able to.

I know she's still a puppy and teething and thats what I've been telling myself for the past few months to keep me sane, but its driving me crazy now and she's big enough to cause a serious injury so its definitely important. Shes still a puppy so I know this can be dealt with to make sure she doesn't have aggressive behaviour as an adult but I guess I just need some reassurance that I'm not missing out on something here. Id like to think I'm a good owner for a first time doberman owner and that I'm doing the best I can with the occasional panics here and there so I'm hoping this will all be over soon. Still love her, she's fine the other 85% of the time but that 15% is really getting to me nowadays. So all in all, I just needed to let this out and tell someone anyone how I'm feeling instead of the typical its going great she's great trainings great etc etc
 

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Please do not hold her down that will really make things worse in the long run. Do you have a fenced back yard ? and a door going into the house from the back yard. This is what I did with Buddy my Dobe when he was your dogs age. Bite I would go into the house remove myself from the situation I bet I went into the house a 100 times. I only stated in maybe a minute came back out if he would lunge at me bite at me I would go into the house.Come back out he finely realized I would not be around if he bit me just like a puppy play mate if a sibling bites too hard they go away.You need to do the same thing.If out walking stop the walk go home. Alfa rolls make dogs fearful of you and will ruin their temperament it is a very old school and they found out the dog will loose trust in the owner.Which is never good.
Dunbar wrote the following article.
Puppies bite, and thank goodness they do. Puppy biting is a normal and natural puppy behavior. In fact, it is the pup that does not mouth and bite much as a youngster that augers ill for the future. Puppy play-biting is the means by which dogs learn to develop bite inhibition, which is absolutely essential later in life.

The combination of weak jaws with extremely sharp, needle-like teeth and the puppy penchant for biting results in numerous play-bites which, although painful, seldom cause serious harm. Thus, the developing pup receives ample necessary feedback regarding the force of its bites before it develops strong jaws – which could inflict considerable injury. The greater the pup's opportunity to play-bite with people, other dogs and other animals, the better the dog's bite inhibition as an adult. For puppies that do not grow up with the benefit of regular and frequent interaction with other dogs and other animals, the responsibility of teaching bite inhibition lies with the owner.

Certainly, puppy biting behavior most eventually be eliminated: we cannot have an adult dog playfully mauling family, friends and strangers in the manner of a young puppy. However, it is essential that puppy biting behaviour is gradually and progressively eliminated via a systematic four-step process. With some dogs, it is easy to teach the four phases in sequence. With others, the puppy biting may be so severe that the owners will need to embark on all four stages at once. However, it is essential that the pup first learn to inhibit the force of its bites before the biting behaviour is eliminated altogether.

Inhibiting the force of bites
No painful bites.
The first item on the agenda is to stop the puppy bruising people. It is not necessary to reprimand the pup and, certainly, physical punishments are contra-indicated, since they tend to make some pups more excited, and insidiously erode the puppy's temperament and trust in the owner. But it is essential to let the pup know when it hurts. A simple "ouch!" is usually sufficient. The volume of the "ouch" should vary according to the dog's mental make-up; a fairly soft "ouch" will suffice for sensitive critters, but a loud "OUCH!!!" may be necessary for a wild and woolly creature. During initial training, even shouting may make the pup more excited, as does physical confinement. An extremely effective technique with boisterous pups is to call the puppy a "jerk!" and leave the room and shut the door. Allow the pup time to reflect on the loss of its favourite human chew toy immediately following the hard nip, and then return to make up. It is important to indicate that you still love the pup – it is the painful bites which are objectionable. Instruct the pup to come and sit, and then resume playing. Ideally, the pup should have been taught not to hurt people well before it is three months old.

It is much better for the owner to leave the pup than to try to physically restrain and remove it to a confinement area at a time when it is already out of control. If one pup bites another too hard, the bitee yelps and playing is postponed while the injured party licks its wounds. The biter learns that hard bites curtail an otherwise enjoyable play session. Hence, the bite learns to bite more softly when the play session resumes.
Good luck.
 

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Honestly, it sounds like you haven't been super consistent, but instead have tried a lot of things for a short time, before giving up and trying something else. Doberman puppies can be really trying, sometimes. They aren't for everyone and they are really different than other breeds. They can be really pushy, difficult pups, but also super sensitive.

I think it would be very helpful for you to be working with a good trainer who can show you how to be really consistent with your pup. My go-to for good trainers is here: Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Consultant Directory - CCPDT.

When your puppy bites, puppy goes into the crate. If puppy is throwing a tantrum, too bad. She doesn't come back out until she settles down. Don't put her in a room she can destroy for a time out. Put her somewhere puppy proof (crate). She isn't getting angry at you - she's just getting bigger and she didn't learn early not to bite you; in fact, she's learned that she gets her way if she bites, so she is biting harder and more insistently. You MUST be 100% consistent. If she's biting you on walks, frankly, I'd halt the walks until she is better at biting.

She shouldn't be off leash in the yard, period. She certainly doesn't have a recall at the point, and you're setting her up for a big mistake that could really get her hurt. If your yard isn't fenced, she needs to be on a long line. Work with her on teaching her that coming to you is the BEST THING EVER. When you call her, you can very gently assist her to come with by reeling her in with the long line, but you should really be working on recall skills with her right next to you - I start teaching that by playing the "name game" - I say puppy's name and when they glance at me I say "yes" or I click and I give them the best treats ever! Then I immediately release them back to what they were doing (I use a release word - "free!"). That's building up to teaching recall...eventually - name, come! (when they are right next to me, so they've basically already "come" - lots of treats! - then "free!" back to what they are doing. So coming to me means awesome stuff happens PLUS you get to keep doing the fun thing you were already doing! So eventually my dogs spin on a dime when they hear their name, race over to me, get rewarded, and know that it doesn't mean the end of fun. You need this skill so that the time they are running toward something dangerous they WILL spin on a dime and it's okay that their fun ends...

Your pup is at an age where she's going to start exploring more and becoming more independent. Your training now is critical. She isn't aggressive - she's a puppy that needs more training, and you absolutely can do it, but you need help, and that's okay.
 

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Reread the post that Patches Mom just put up--this is very good advice. From what it sounds like (from what you posted) you've tried a bunch of stuff, most of which is pretty ineffective and haven't really stuck with one of the methods that actually works long enough to make it work.

If your puppy runs away from you don't let her out without a leash. Ever--until she has a totally reliable recall (my dogs generally don't go without a leash except for in a fully fenced yard until they are fully trained--18 month and over.

When I'm teaching puppies not to bite as soon as a puppy lays teeth on me I go away--I don't talk to them about it I don't even say "NO"--I leave and make sure there is a door between me and the puppy.

If she pitches a fit and scratches at the door in a room and if you don't have a crate and haven't taught her about crates it's time to do so. But if leaving the room doesn't work--leave the house--you can always repaint a door but clearly the message about not biting hasn't reached her tiny brain. And you can't do it sooner now but you need to get the message across.

I'd also stop the long walks--do what Patches Mom suggested--take her out in the yard---if she bites--leave--don't talk to her about it and don't engage her further--just leave--stay out of sight for a couple of minutes and if she starts biting again leave again.

She is still playing with you like she would another dog--another dog wouldn't tolerate biting that hurt them--they'd leave and not give her attention and they wouldn't play with her. But do it every time. Stick to one method and you'll find the message will be received--it'll probably take longer now to fade this behavior because it's been going on for months.

It's kind of like the situation that comes up when someone is training their dog and repeats commands--sit, sit, sit--don't give commands you can't enforce. Say sit (or come or whatever once--but have a leash on so that you can make sure she sits or comes). Biting works the same way and the fact that she does it when you go to the park and it's escalating suggests that it is a fully TRAINED behavior and it'll keep getting worse if you don't stop it more effectively.

A good trainer to help you with this is also a better idea than not enrolling her and TAKING her to a training class because you don't think she'll listen. In fact if you think about it,it should sound pretty silly. If your dog always paid attention to you and always did what you wanted instead of staring at other dogs or into space you wouldn't need a training class

Dogs don't generalize well--so she needs to go to a class (and lots of other places as well) so she learns that she is supposed to come when you call her no matter where she is not just in the house or in the yard. And dogs ultimately only do what works and so far biting you (and no matter what she "looks" like I'd be willing to bet she isn't being aggressive--she's still playing but she's playing by dog rules and not by people rules--so she's still bitig you). If you give her no attention for this and separate yourself from her she will figure out that her rules don't work and she'll figure out that biting doesn't work.

Good luck--I fade biting behavior immediately when puppies arrive at my home--and it only lasts about a week around here.

So don't play any games that involve her teeth on you--and don't make excuses that it's because she's teething--if she bites--you stop interacting with her and go away.

If you have to walk her to give her exercise buy a basket muzzle (not a head coller--those aren't muzzles) and make her wear it while being walked but keep working on fading all bite behavior everywhere and every times.

There are literally dozens of threads on DT on how to stop biting in puppies--in any given week there are usually two or three--do a search and read what has been said in the past--I probably have answered this same question once every couple of months and I know what I do works because I've been teaching puppies not to bite me since 1959.

Edited to add: I see MeadowCat was posting while I was writing--and you'll see she thinks pretty much the same thing I do about WHY your puppy still bites. Reread her post too.

Good luck...
 

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Bazinga!
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I agree with what the others have said and would add my own two cents.

1. If you choose to utilize a muzzle, please take the time to train her to it so that it represents good things and it is not a punishment.

2. Bored, frustrated over stimulated puppies can bit or redirect to the other.
Please get puppy into training classes asap. Help her use her brain this will tire her out and help create a bond between you.

3. Do not pin the poor puppy down. This destroys trust and often increases reactions every single time.

While I realize having teeth out upon you isn't pleasant, but consistency is absolutely essential.

You tube the game 'it's yer choice'. I always recommend this game. As it helps teach self control to dogs and puppies alike.
 

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Zuko's Mom
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Absolutely great advice already given. Others have mentioned, but it is so important especially when dealing with puppies... use a crate! She should not be placed ina room she can destroy but a neutral place that she cannot have any control - ie. a crate. She'll probably make a fit but she should not be let out until she has calmed herself down.

It took a long time for my sister in-law's new puppy to learn that biting is a no-no, about a year old now and has just recently stopped biting. I feel your struggle! This little guy was a bichon mix, super tiny compared to a 50 lb. dobe!

Keep us updated on your pgoress with your girl!
 

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Boy Cali - your getting some top of the line advice here ! But like SieYa - it's time for my cent and a half .

What your going threw with your little girl sounds just like what we went threw with Little Kadin when he came here !!!!! ( HE's now 2 1/2 )
Kadin came from a very good breeder - handler ! He was raised around his dad - Other show dogs + his brother and 2 sisters - when we went to pick him up - We were in the kennel - There was a long run threw the faculty - Little Kadin would take off running a 100 mph and then do a 4 paw lock up and slide , and right when he got to the pin , he would lift up and slam his front paws into it _ Well Gibb's , which was laying on his bed , came off it - also at 100 mph and barked at him - which by that time , Kadin was getting out of Dodge ! I said to myself - Ken - I think your going to have your hands full and to boot ?? The last thing Cindy said to my wife and I was - MAKE HIM MIND ! I also think she had a good clue as to what we were getting ready to go threw :2smile:

I had hurt my elbow bad that spring on the farm - about a week after we got Kadin - from out of the blue - the doctor ( surgeon ) I was seeing said I needed to have surgery - IF - I was going to go threw harvest - So I had it done - but was laid up for 2 weeks - So Kadin and I became best of friends ! Since I couldn't do anything - we would sit out on the pouch and he would lay on my lap for hours - all just to see 2 cars go by ! He was daddy's little angle ! -Then from out of nowhere - he changes to the evil little demon ! He would bite on my arms = blood everywhere ! =then in the house - he would run down the hall and jump up and bite on my wife's legs - I'm telling you first hand - that was not a good idea for him to do !! We tried everything x 2 ! We went threw harvest with this little fart handle - biting . After the crops were in I enrolled him in a puppy training course - That was the game changer !!!!! He would pull and dance around - She fitted him with a pinch collar - it was plastic for the little ones . The purpose of puppy classes is to train YOU - not the dog :2smile: After attending the classes - Ken found out he didn't know Jack --- when it came to a hard headed little boy - even though - I have been accused of it many times !

I have to wonder sometimes - If it was the company he was with at his young age = learned behavior ? and he was playing with the big boys and thought he was one to ?

I can't say enough what classes will do for your girl -

One last thing - Between him losing his baby teeth and the top of the line training -Or I should say the training I received - he changed ! He is the most loving dog we have had !

My wife would call me in the combine - beside herself - if he wasn't trying to bite her , then when she took him out to do his business - he would eat a bale of grass then --- RUN into the house and poop it out - my poor wife ! I kept telling her - he will be a great dog someday - Key word ( someday ) , and he is - now ! Opens the back door and lets himself out to go do his deal - lol I just can't say enough and how proud we are of him - The reason for all my rambling here - is that your not the only one to go threw this - rest assured ! Patience - Patience - Patience and then a lot of work - did I say Patience ? - As the others have said - get her in class - like in yesterday and then the fun will start ! You will have the great girl - someday !!! :2smile:

Best of Luck !!!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Please do not hold her down that will really make things worse in the long run. Do you have a fenced back yard ? and a door going into the house from the back yard. This is what I did with Buddy my Dobe when he was your dogs age. Bite I would go into the house remove myself from the situation I bet I went into the house a 100 times. I only stated in maybe a minute came back out if he would lunge at me bite at me I would go into the house.Come back out he finely realized I would not be around if he bit me just like a puppy play mate if a sibling bites too hard they go away.You need to do the same thing.If out walking stop the walk go home. Alfa rolls make dogs fearful of you and will ruin their temperament it is a very old school and they found out the dog will loose trust in the owner.Which is never good.
Dunbar wrote the following article.
Puppies bite, and thank goodness they do. Puppy biting is a normal and natural puppy behavior. In fact, it is the pup that does not mouth and bite much as a youngster that augers ill for the future. Puppy play-biting is the means by which dogs learn to develop bite inhibition, which is absolutely essential later in life.

The combination of weak jaws with extremely sharp, needle-like teeth and the puppy penchant for biting results in numerous play-bites which, although painful, seldom cause serious harm. Thus, the developing pup receives ample necessary feedback regarding the force of its bites before it develops strong jaws – which could inflict considerable injury. The greater the pup's opportunity to play-bite with people, other dogs and other animals, the better the dog's bite inhibition as an adult. For puppies that do not grow up with the benefit of regular and frequent interaction with other dogs and other animals, the responsibility of teaching bite inhibition lies with the owner.

Certainly, puppy biting behavior most eventually be eliminated: we cannot have an adult dog playfully mauling family, friends and strangers in the manner of a young puppy. However, it is essential that puppy biting behaviour is gradually and progressively eliminated via a systematic four-step process. With some dogs, it is easy to teach the four phases in sequence. With others, the puppy biting may be so severe that the owners will need to embark on all four stages at once. However, it is essential that the pup first learn to inhibit the force of its bites before the biting behaviour is eliminated altogether.

Inhibiting the force of bites
No painful bites.
The first item on the agenda is to stop the puppy bruising people. It is not necessary to reprimand the pup and, certainly, physical punishments are contra-indicated, since they tend to make some pups more excited, and insidiously erode the puppy's temperament and trust in the owner. But it is essential to let the pup know when it hurts. A simple "ouch!" is usually sufficient. The volume of the "ouch" should vary according to the dog's mental make-up; a fairly soft "ouch" will suffice for sensitive critters, but a loud "OUCH!!!" may be necessary for a wild and woolly creature. During initial training, even shouting may make the pup more excited, as does physical confinement. An extremely effective technique with boisterous pups is to call the puppy a "jerk!" and leave the room and shut the door. Allow the pup time to reflect on the loss of its favourite human chew toy immediately following the hard nip, and then return to make up. It is important to indicate that you still love the pup – it is the painful bites which are objectionable. Instruct the pup to come and sit, and then resume playing. Ideally, the pup should have been taught not to hurt people well before it is three months old.

It is much better for the owner to leave the pup than to try to physically restrain and remove it to a confinement area at a time when it is already out of control. If one pup bites another too hard, the bitee yelps and playing is postponed while the injured party licks its wounds. The biter learns that hard bites curtail an otherwise enjoyable play session. Hence, the bite learns to bite more softly when the play session resumes.
Good luck.
I have a fairly large yard that is fenced but if I'm not in the yard with her she barks nonstop and actually broke part of the fence in the back so thats not an option. Either version of the yelp in response doesn't seem to encourage her to stop, just kind of ignores me on that one. Her usual time out is in the washroom in a tub/shower that has a closed door, which happens to be the only place she can't destroy anything. She had another fit or two on the walk today right next to a high traffic road and was terrifying for me not bite wise but if she ran off onto the road (usually doesn't, waits for me to cross but never know what she will do when she's acting a little crazy). I agree with the no puppy bruising, most I've done is hold her down but I wouldn't lay hands on her, period. I've booked puppy classes already and sent an email to give them a little heads up on what I need help with, thanks for the advice but I don't think the ouch strategy will work with my particular pup!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Honestly, it sounds like you haven't been super consistent, but instead have tried a lot of things for a short time, before giving up and trying something else. Doberman puppies can be really trying, sometimes. They aren't for everyone and they are really different than other breeds. They can be really pushy, difficult pups, but also super sensitive.

I think it would be very helpful for you to be working with a good trainer who can show you how to be really consistent with your pup. My go-to for good trainers is here: Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Consultant Directory - CCPDT.

When your puppy bites, puppy goes into the crate. If puppy is throwing a tantrum, too bad. She doesn't come back out until she settles down. Don't put her in a room she can destroy for a time out. Put her somewhere puppy proof (crate). She isn't getting angry at you - she's just getting bigger and she didn't learn early not to bite you; in fact, she's learned that she gets her way if she bites, so she is biting harder and more insistently. You MUST be 100% consistent. If she's biting you on walks, frankly, I'd halt the walks until she is better at biting.

She shouldn't be off leash in the yard, period. She certainly doesn't have a recall at the point, and you're setting her up for a big mistake that could really get her hurt. If your yard isn't fenced, she needs to be on a long line. Work with her on teaching her that coming to you is the BEST THING EVER. When you call her, you can very gently assist her to come with by reeling her in with the long line, but you should really be working on recall skills with her right next to you - I start teaching that by playing the "name game" - I say puppy's name and when they glance at me I say "yes" or I click and I give them the best treats ever! Then I immediately release them back to what they were doing (I use a release word - "free!"). That's building up to teaching recall...eventually - name, come! (when they are right next to me, so they've basically already "come" - lots of treats! - then "free!" back to what they are doing. So coming to me means awesome stuff happens PLUS you get to keep doing the fun thing you were already doing! So eventually my dogs spin on a dime when they hear their name, race over to me, get rewarded, and know that it doesn't mean the end of fun. You need this skill so that the time they are running toward something dangerous they WILL spin on a dime and it's okay that their fun ends...

Your pup is at an age where she's going to start exploring more and becoming more independent. Your training now is critical. She isn't aggressive - she's a puppy that needs more training, and you absolutely can do it, but you need help, and that's okay.
Thanks, I definitely needed the reassurance that this is just puppy behaviour. She's only allowed in the yard when she's with me but she's usually not leashed. Usually because if she is on a leash I'm usually trying to build up recall skills with a clicker but she gets distracted either rolling around in the grass or something so I'll definitely start keeping her on the leash in the yard and see if that helps. She's crate trained and doesn't bark in her crate but Im a little unsure if I should use the crate as her time-out, wouldn't that make her dislike her crate?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Reread the post that Patches Mom just put up--this is very good advice. From what it sounds like (from what you posted) you've tried a bunch of stuff, most of which is pretty ineffective and haven't really stuck with one of the methods that actually works long enough to make it work.

If your puppy runs away from you don't let her out without a leash. Ever--until she has a totally reliable recall (my dogs generally don't go without a leash except for in a fully fenced yard until they are fully trained--18 month and over.

When I'm teaching puppies not to bite as soon as a puppy lays teeth on me I go away--I don't talk to them about it I don't even say "NO"--I leave and make sure there is a door between me and the puppy.

If she pitches a fit and scratches at the door in a room and if you don't have a crate and haven't taught her about crates it's time to do so. But if leaving the room doesn't work--leave the house--you can always repaint a door but clearly the message about not biting hasn't reached her tiny brain. And you can't do it sooner now but you need to get the message across.

I'd also stop the long walks--do what Patches Mom suggested--take her out in the yard---if she bites--leave--don't talk to her about it and don't engage her further--just leave--stay out of sight for a couple of minutes and if she starts biting again leave again.

She is still playing with you like she would another dog--another dog wouldn't tolerate biting that hurt them--they'd leave and not give her attention and they wouldn't play with her. But do it every time. Stick to one method and you'll find the message will be received--it'll probably take longer now to fade this behavior because it's been going on for months.

It's kind of like the situation that comes up when someone is training their dog and repeats commands--sit, sit, sit--don't give commands you can't enforce. Say sit (or come or whatever once--but have a leash on so that you can make sure she sits or comes). Biting works the same way and the fact that she does it when you go to the park and it's escalating suggests that it is a fully TRAINED behavior and it'll keep getting worse if you don't stop it more effectively.

A good trainer to help you with this is also a better idea than not enrolling her and TAKING her to a training class because you don't think she'll listen. In fact if you think about it,it should sound pretty silly. If your dog always paid attention to you and always did what you wanted instead of staring at other dogs or into space you wouldn't need a training class

Dogs don't generalize well--so she needs to go to a class (and lots of other places as well) so she learns that she is supposed to come when you call her no matter where she is not just in the house or in the yard. And dogs ultimately only do what works and so far biting you (and no matter what she "looks" like I'd be willing to bet she isn't being aggressive--she's still playing but she's playing by dog rules and not by people rules--so she's still bitig you). If you give her no attention for this and separate yourself from her she will figure out that her rules don't work and she'll figure out that biting doesn't work.

Good luck--I fade biting behavior immediately when puppies arrive at my home--and it only lasts about a week around here.

So don't play any games that involve her teeth on you--and don't make excuses that it's because she's teething--if she bites--you stop interacting with her and go away.

If you have to walk her to give her exercise buy a basket muzzle (not a head coller--those aren't muzzles) and make her wear it while being walked but keep working on fading all bite behavior everywhere and every times.

There are literally dozens of threads on DT on how to stop biting in puppies--in any given week there are usually two or three--do a search and read what has been said in the past--I probably have answered this same question once every couple of months and I know what I do works because I've been teaching puppies not to bite me since 1959.

Edited to add: I see MeadowCat was posting while I was writing--and you'll see she thinks pretty much the same thing I do about WHY your puppy still bites. Reread her post too.

Good luck...
Replied to Meadowcats post already, but thanks for both advices. I emailed a puppy class with my concern and they suggested that since she isn't really barking or lunging at dogs when she meets them she should be signed up just for a basic puppy training class (with 3 other people is their class size). I told them about the biting situation too and they said that it would be okay to enrol her in that class because it will train her not to but I think you're right about how this biting behaviour is trained and gets her what she wants. In this case should I take her out of the class and into private sessions with a pro-trainer instead or try it out for a week or two and see if it might help? in the meantime ill cut down on the length of walks, I did also buy a muzzle, and try yard time instead. I guess ill have lots of time to work on recall in the yard now! And when she bites me I should drop and head inside immediately correct? Usually whenever I've done this she either 1. tries to follow me inside and jumps on fences to the front door looking for me (hence the breaking of the fence) or 2. ignores, plays in the grass and doesn't care. Should I keep her on a long leash in the yard and leave sight with her on the leash still?
 

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I agree with what the others have said and would add my own two cents.

1. If you choose to utilize a muzzle, please take the time to train her to it so that it represents good things and it is not a punishment.

2. Bored, frustrated over stimulated puppies can bit or redirect to the other.
Please get puppy into training classes asap. Help her use her brain this will tire her out and help create a bond between you.

3. Do not pin the poor puppy down. This destroys trust and often increases reactions every single time.

While I realize having teeth out upon you isn't pleasant, but consistency is absolutely essential.

You tube the game 'it's yer choice'. I always recommend this game. As it helps teach self control to dogs and puppies alike.
Ill be heading over to youtube right after to this reply thanks! Ive stopped holding her down, I mainly did that because I was in a park with other people around and I did NOT want even the slightest chance of her running and biting someone enjoying their stroll. I just got the muzzle and advice from above makes it so that it doesn't look like ill have to use it unless I must walk her, its yard time for now. Thanks she's signed up for a class right now, not sure if I should wait and see how it goes or just go for a trainer right off the bat (read previous replies).

Absolutely great advice already given. Others have mentioned, but it is so important especially when dealing with puppies... use a crate! She should not be placed ina room she can destroy but a neutral place that she cannot have any control - ie. a crate. She'll probably make a fit but she should not be let out until she has calmed herself down.

It took a long time for my sister in-law's new puppy to learn that biting is a no-no, about a year old now and has just recently stopped biting. I feel your struggle! This little guy was a bichon mix, super tiny compared to a 50 lb. dobe!

Keep us updated on your pgoress with your girl!
She's crate trained and doesn't throw fits in there at all but i only use it when I cant watch what she's up to, I don't know if I feel good about using it as a punishment for biting. I've only ever been using it for night time or for naps or when I'm getting ready or no ones home. No one's home from 10 to 4 but she is let out during lunch so she gets to run around and play for a bit and isn't stuffed up in a crate too long (never longer than 4 hours at the very max). So its really important that she enjoys being in her crate, if I use it as punishment wont that create bad associations instead of the positive way she sees it right now? Im just wondering if your sister-in-law ever had issues with that or the puppy disliking the crate.

Boy Cali - your getting some top of the line advice here ! But like SieYa - it's time for my cent and a half .

What your going threw with your little girl sounds just like what we went threw with Little Kadin when he came here !!!!! ( HE's now 2 1/2 )
Kadin came from a very good breeder - handler ! He was raised around his dad - Other show dogs + his brother and 2 sisters - when we went to pick him up - We were in the kennel - There was a long run threw the faculty - Little Kadin would take off running a 100 mph and then do a 4 paw lock up and slide , and right when he got to the pin , he would lift up and slam his front paws into it _ Well Gibb's , which was laying on his bed , came off it - also at 100 mph and barked at him - which by that time , Kadin was getting out of Dodge ! I said to myself - Ken - I think your going to have your hands full and to boot ?? The last thing Cindy said to my wife and I was - MAKE HIM MIND ! I also think she had a good clue as to what we were getting ready to go threw :2smile:

I had hurt my elbow bad that spring on the farm - about a week after we got Kadin - from out of the blue - the doctor ( surgeon ) I was seeing said I needed to have surgery - IF - I was going to go threw harvest - So I had it done - but was laid up for 2 weeks - So Kadin and I became best of friends ! Since I couldn't do anything - we would sit out on the pouch and he would lay on my lap for hours - all just to see 2 cars go by ! He was daddy's little angle ! -Then from out of nowhere - he changes to the evil little demon ! He would bite on my arms = blood everywhere ! =then in the house - he would run down the hall and jump up and bite on my wife's legs - I'm telling you first hand - that was not a good idea for him to do !! We tried everything x 2 ! We went threw harvest with this little fart handle - biting . After the crops were in I enrolled him in a puppy training course - That was the game changer !!!!! He would pull and dance around - She fitted him with a pinch collar - it was plastic for the little ones . The purpose of puppy classes is to train YOU - not the dog :2smile: After attending the classes - Ken found out he didn't know Jack --- when it came to a hard headed little boy - even though - I have been accused of it many times !

I have to wonder sometimes - If it was the company he was with at his young age = learned behavior ? and he was playing with the big boys and thought he was one to ?

I can't say enough what classes will do for your girl -

One last thing - Between him losing his baby teeth and the top of the line training -Or I should say the training I received - he changed ! He is the most loving dog we have had !

My wife would call me in the combine - beside herself - if he wasn't trying to bite her , then when she took him out to do his business - he would eat a bale of grass then --- RUN into the house and poop it out - my poor wife ! I kept telling her - he will be a great dog someday - Key word ( someday ) , and he is - now ! Opens the back door and lets himself out to go do his deal - lol I just can't say enough and how proud we are of him - The reason for all my rambling here - is that your not the only one to go threw this - rest assured ! Patience - Patience - Patience and then a lot of work - did I say Patience ? - As the others have said - get her in class - like in yesterday and then the fun will start ! You will have the great girl - someday !!! :2smile:

Best of Luck !!!
Someday, seems like such a distant future hahaha. She's signed up for classes and I've contacted them telling them about her little biting habit so they've got a heads up on what I'm worried about. Hopefully you're right about someday! She used to do the pooping trick with me too, she knows better now though so I've got a tiny bit less to stress about than your situation, thanks!
 

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Cali - Someday do's seem - way out in the future - yet - time fly's !!!!!!!!!! We started to see Kadin change before our eyes when we started training - One of the best training - anyway I think it was - was called sitting on the dog - really - it's sitting on the lead - I would have him sit - lay next to me - he would stay there for 45 minutes - if he got up - the clock restarted - Boy , at first - I was there forever - but it got better and better everyday - But he learned to take a breath - to relax - so to speak - - I can still see them sad puppy eye's looking up at me - lol When I started that program - I thought NO way - he will sit - lay there for 45 minutes - but there was a surprise - he did it , And that lead to the start of a great dog -

He's not prefect - I need to get him back in class - as he has some little things that need attention - but need our trainer to assist ,

Like I said - the fun will start when you start training - that's the step to ???? Someday - lol

Keep us posted !!! :2smile:
 

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Thanks, I definitely needed the reassurance that this is just puppy behaviour. She's only allowed in the yard when she's with me but she's usually not leashed. Usually because if she is on a leash I'm usually trying to build up recall skills with a clicker but she gets distracted either rolling around in the grass or something so I'll definitely start keeping her on the leash in the yard and see if that helps. She's crate trained and doesn't bark in her crate but Im a little unsure if I should use the crate as her time-out, wouldn't that make her dislike her crate?
As far as crate for time out...it's kind of a judgement call. If you have somewhere else to keep her safe and out of trouble, you can use that. If you've put a LOT of work into crate training and she loves her crate, you can probably get away with brief time outs in the crate...I used them with my boy, and he still adores his crate. You have to balance the ability to keep her safe (and your house from being damaged!) with not ruining the crate for her. I build up a lot of "crate is awesome" by having lots of good things in the crate so that I can get away with a brief time out in the crate if I need to. Your mileage may vary.
 

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Replied to Meadowcats post already, but thanks for both advices. I emailed a puppy class with my concern and they suggested that since she isn't really barking or lunging at dogs when she meets them she should be signed up just for a basic puppy training class (with 3 other people is their class size). I told them about the biting situation too and they said that it would be okay to enrol her in that class because it will train her not to but I think you're right about how this biting behaviour is trained and gets her what she wants.
Exactly--that's why you want to take her to a class so the trainer can help explain and show you how to stop the behavior--especially the biting.

In this case should I take her out of the class and into private sessions with a pro-trainer instead or try it out for a week or two and see if it might help
I wouldn't do it that way--what you want is to learn ways to stop the biting--the professional trainer can fend for himself--I bet he already knows how to stop puppy biting. Keep in the mind that dogs really DON'T GENERALIZE WELL! and that's the reason that most of the suggestions from owners of puppies who are being bad in some way who think that a professional trainer is the answer get vetoed by so many of us. You need to be an active participant in the training process--you are the one she's biting. I would put her in the recommended puppy class and stick it out for the 4 or 6 weeks it lasts and see what kind of progress you are making--I know you understand that it's not going to be an overnight fix--first you need to fade the biting behavior and at the same time teach her what is acceptable.

? in the meantime ill cut down on the length of walks, I did also buy a muzzle, and try yard time instead. I guess ill have lots of time to work on recall in the yard now! And when she bites me I should drop and head inside immediately correct? Usually whenever I've done this she either 1. tries to follow me inside and jumps on fences to the front door looking for me (hence the breaking of the fence) or 2. ignores, plays in the grass and doesn't care. Should I keep her on a long leash in the yard and leave sight with her on the leash still?
The only reason I suggested cutting down or out the walks is because she was being so determined to start every walk with a biting session.

Yes, in the yard if she bites--leave--immediately. You don't have to stay gone for long--1 or 2 minutes is enough--of course she's going to follow you inside--you go in then shut the door in her face--then she can't come with you. You aren't going to be leaving her there alone long enough for her to do a whole lot of destructive jumping on fences.

I don't leave my dogs out in yards alone either but I do often work in the back yard and garden (both areas fenced and the puppy can play in the yard but not in the garden).

And I don't recommend leaving her on a leash of any kind if you are not out there with her.

Somewhere else you wondered if confining her to a crate because she was biting or barking wouldn't make her hate the crate. Not in my experience--I did know a guy who used to get angry with his dog (a puppy) for a variety of things and would literally beat the crap out of him and throw him in the crate for him to repent. GAWD!--now that dog did learn to hate his crate. But a lot of puppies when you crate them because they are so amped up they can't stop biting, barking or whatever they are doing that is unacceptable get crated and often like naughty toddlers who are just overtired, fall asleep within moments of being crated.

I have a crate in an area next to the slider in the kitchen--puppies get confined there all the time when I'm doing stuff in the kitchen and can't watch them and puppies get fed in the crate so they think the crate is fine. Big dogs like the crate because if I'm in the kitchen and they are being good and just hanging out in the crate I'll often toss them something that they think is a big treat (like a shred of carrot or a piece of tomato--what do they know--they're dogs!) I've also got a cat who is (after 5 years of living here)still quite feral--she likes to sleep in the crate--because she can see what's going on but can't be caught (this is the cat who would rather hang out with dogs than people)--she's in there now--two dogs have come to tattle that Flare is in their crate and would I please get her out?

I don't think that being crated for being a perfect pill and biting makes dogs hate crates.

By the way--a friend of mine was taking care of a couple of Dobes for friends of ours--I asked her how it was going--she told me that their dogs were much better than hers--said they never bark out in the yard. Seems that from the beginning of dogs (Dobes, miscellaneous other breeds-most of them notorious for being barkey) from the day a dog joins their family Mic goes to the door and the dogs have to come in if they are barking. Perfect example of how training can work.

Good luck...
 

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You need to be an active participant in the training process--you are the one she's biting.

Ding - Ding - Ding -- We Have A Winning !

Great advice !

When I started with the training with Kadin - I was still recovering from surgery on my elbow - The trainer said that she would like to take over the training and board him for 2 weeks - I said - no way - It may take longer - but I felt it was very important that Him and I worked out the problems together . Yes It did take longer - but we have a pretty good bond now .

I have found that most of our Dobie's think of the pen as - " there space " after eating We crate Kad for a hour - now , after eating - he go's to the crate and will open the door and go in on his own - We had one Girl that I would tease - I know - Your not suppose to do that : ) But I would get in her crate - lol Boy she didn't like that - lol When I crawled out - then it was game on ! She really enjoyed playing that game - she got to where she would sit there and wait for me to do it - lol

As I have said - lots of good advice on here -

I still think that you will enjoy the training - you two will have a bond for life and you will be repaid in aces - :2smile:
 

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I don't have anything to add to the great advice above, just to let you know you're not alone! Freia was an evil nipper right about 4-5 months old. Oh my god. She would come after us like a shark and I swear her eyes gleamed with unholy delight whenever she got one of us. But it had to stop, especially as she was really going after my 12 year old son like he was her personal pincushion. And she ripped several pairs of my pants! We had a penned in puppy proof area of the living room which was "our" family spot, and whenever she nipped, even a tiny bit, we would say Ouch in a very sad voice and immediately walk away, leaving her in the pen, and stay away for a minute. Teeth on skin, ouch, walk away. That's it. I had a trainer who recommended shouting ouch, but Freia hates loud noises so I didn't do that... F is very sensitive to tone of voice, most dogs are but dobies seem extra aware. The sad voice really works on her. Same idea outdoors... She was always on a leash outside until quite recently, so teeth on skin outside, sad ouch, fun stops, we go inside. She loves being outdoors, so that was a big consequence for her.

Anyway, within about a month of that, Freia got the idea that nipping is not ok. She will mouth if you play rough with her, which I discourage, but the teeth do not touch skin. She will pinch me with her front teeth sometimes when I'm giving her a treat, but I think that's ok. I'm the biggest novice dobie owner and find it very challenging to train Freia, but if I can do this, you can do it!
 

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Exactly--that's why you want to take her to a class so the trainer can help explain and show you how to stop the behavior--especially the biting.



I wouldn't do it that way--what you want is to learn ways to stop the biting--the professional trainer can fend for himself--I bet he already knows how to stop puppy biting. Keep in the mind that dogs really DON'T GENERALIZE WELL! and that's the reason that most of the suggestions from owners of puppies who are being bad in some way who think that a professional trainer is the answer get vetoed by so many of us. You need to be an active participant in the training process--you are the one she's biting. I would put her in the recommended puppy class and stick it out for the 4 or 6 weeks it lasts and see what kind of progress you are making--I know you understand that it's not going to be an overnight fix--first you need to fade the biting behavior and at the same time teach her what is acceptable.



The only reason I suggested cutting down or out the walks is because she was being so determined to start every walk with a biting session.

Yes, in the yard if she bites--leave--immediately. You don't have to stay gone for long--1 or 2 minutes is enough--of course she's going to follow you inside--you go in then shut the door in her face--then she can't come with you. You aren't going to be leaving her there alone long enough for her to do a whole lot of destructive jumping on fences.

I don't leave my dogs out in yards alone either but I do often work in the back yard and garden (both areas fenced and the puppy can play in the yard but not in the garden).

And I don't recommend leaving her on a leash of any kind if you are not out there with her.

Somewhere else you wondered if confining her to a crate because she was biting or barking wouldn't make her hate the crate. Not in my experience--I did know a guy who used to get angry with his dog (a puppy) for a variety of things and would literally beat the crap out of him and throw him in the crate for him to repent. GAWD!--now that dog did learn to hate his crate. But a lot of puppies when you crate them because they are so amped up they can't stop biting, barking or whatever they are doing that is unacceptable get crated and often like naughty toddlers who are just overtired, fall asleep within moments of being crated.

I have a crate in an area next to the slider in the kitchen--puppies get confined there all the time when I'm doing stuff in the kitchen and can't watch them and puppies get fed in the crate so they think the crate is fine. Big dogs like the crate because if I'm in the kitchen and they are being good and just hanging out in the crate I'll often toss them something that they think is a big treat (like a shred of carrot or a piece of tomato--what do they know--they're dogs!) I've also got a cat who is (after 5 years of living here)still quite feral--she likes to sleep in the crate--because she can see what's going on but can't be caught (this is the cat who would rather hang out with dogs than people)--she's in there now--two dogs have come to tattle that Flare is in their crate and would I please get her out?

I don't think that being crated for being a perfect pill and biting makes dogs hate crates.

By the way--a friend of mine was taking care of a couple of Dobes for friends of ours--I asked her how it was going--she told me that their dogs were much better than hers--said they never bark out in the yard. Seems that from the beginning of dogs (Dobes, miscellaneous other breeds-most of them notorious for being barkey) from the day a dog joins their family Mic goes to the door and the dogs have to come in if they are barking. Perfect example of how training can work.

Good luck...
Thanks for the help. I've spoken again to the puppy class trainer, (she's got a very good reputation, reviews, vet like her, hopefully she's as good as she says) and asked about private lessons with her beforehand. She says she will for a behavioural profile beforehand and written handouts after each class (private and group) and sessions are 2 hours for private. I think ill probably try to book a private class soon as the group doesn't start until September and I'd rather start training properly and see how she does until then (if she will be better prepared to participate in a puppy class). I'll also be checking out some pro trainers from the website if this one doesn't work out. The leaving the room thing seems to work about 70% of the time, other 30% she distracts herself. Barely works in the yard though but I don't try as often because the fallen fence hasn't been fixed. With the excess yard time her recalls gotten noticeably better, so I guess theres an upside to all of this! Hopefully good updates to come thanks again
 

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I don't have anything to add to the great advice above, just to let you know you're not alone! Freia was an evil nipper right about 4-5 months old. Oh my god. She would come after us like a shark and I swear her eyes gleamed with unholy delight whenever she got one of us. But it had to stop, especially as she was really going after my 12 year old son like he was her personal pincushion. And she ripped several pairs of my pants! We had a penned in puppy proof area of the living room which was "our" family spot, and whenever she nipped, even a tiny bit, we would say Ouch in a very sad voice and immediately walk away, leaving her in the pen, and stay away for a minute. Teeth on skin, ouch, walk away. That's it. I had a trainer who recommended shouting ouch, but Freia hates loud noises so I didn't do that... F is very sensitive to tone of voice, most dogs are but dobies seem extra aware. The sad voice really works on her. Same idea outdoors... She was always on a leash outside until quite recently, so teeth on skin outside, sad ouch, fun stops, we go inside. She loves being outdoors, so that was a big consequence for her.

Anyway, within about a month of that, Freia got the idea that nipping is not ok. She will mouth if you play rough with her, which I discourage, but the teeth do not touch skin. She will pinch me with her front teeth sometimes when I'm giving her a treat, but I think that's ok. I'm the biggest novice dobie owner and find it very challenging to train Freia, but if I can do this, you can do it!
the ouch seems to encourage her, I tried using that in the first month with high pitched yelp (not yelling), and she interpreted as play I guess because she bit even harder (thats my girl :|) Leaving the room seems to help though! And don't even get me started on the pairs of jeans I've had to convince myself didn't fit properly so I didn't have to feel bad she ripped them up. Thanks for the reassurance and advice, hopefully she picks up the hint that biting = end of fun.
 

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Thanks for the help. I've spoken again to the puppy class trainer, (she's got a very good reputation, reviews, vet like her, hopefully she's as good as she says) and asked about private lessons with her beforehand. She says she will for a behavioural profile beforehand and written handouts after each class (private and group) and sessions are 2 hours for private. I think ill probably try to book a private class soon as the group doesn't start until September and I'd rather start training properly and see how she does until then (if she will be better prepared to participate in a puppy class).
CaliDobe, at least a couple of us mentioned the fact that, from what you were posting, the reason nothing was working was that you weren't sticking with one method long enough to realistically see improvement. You are kind of doing some more of the same thing now. September is only 10 days away--unless the class doesn't start until September 30.

It reminds me of a some of my friends who used to freak out because they were afraid that their kid (at a year) wouldn't be able to get into an appropriate kindergarten if they didn't get them into a prekindergarten so they would know how to behave in kindergarten.

There are some very good reasons to take puppies to group puppy classes and some equally good reasons to not start individual classes that are two hours long for a five month old puppy. Two hours is a very long time for a puppy and even though it's not like you've be working her at anything in particular for that length of time you and she would probably get more out of the group class at this point.

If this were my puppy (I can tell she's not because she still bites you) I'd put her in the group class (although I'd have probably had her in a group class at 4 months) and go through that before I'd invest in private sessions.

I'll also be checking out some pro trainers from the website if this one doesn't work out.
That's OK but it sounds like the trainer you've located comes well recommended and is doing all the things I'd look for if I were seeking behavioral training help

The leaving the room thing seems to work about 70% of the time, other 30% she distracts herself.
You've only been trying this method for a few days--and it's working 70% of the time? If she distracts herself it's still working. The idea is to make her stop biting you and do something else instead. At any rate--your first post about the biting problem was 8/16--today is only 8/19. Consistency and time are the things that work when you are trying to fade unacceptable behaviors (biting) it isn't going to happen overnight--sounds like in the four days you've been trying the "leave the area" method there has been a significant improvement.

Barely works in the yard though but I don't try as often because the fallen fence hasn't been fixed.
FIX THE FENCE! You can't work without tools--the fence, in this case, is a tool. You can't say it doesn't work when you aren't doing it much because one of your tools is missing--it's like trying to build something that needs a hammer but you don't have one so you are using a brick that doesn't work very well because it crumbles when you pound on a nail with it.

With the excess yard time her recalls gotten noticeably better, so I guess theres an upside to all of this! Hopefully good updates to come thanks again
Yeah, that's good--it's a far sight better than no progress at all--keep us posted on the progress.
 

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Thanks for the help. I've spoken again to the puppy class trainer, (she's got a very good reputation, reviews, vet like her, hopefully she's as good as she says) and asked about private lessons with her beforehand. She says she will for a behavioural profile beforehand and written handouts after each class (private and group) and sessions are 2 hours for private. I think ill probably try to book a private class soon as the group doesn't start until September and I'd rather start training properly and see how she does until then (if she will be better prepared to participate in a puppy class).
CaliDobe, at least a couple of us mentioned the fact that, from what you were posting, the reason nothing was working was that you weren't sticking with one method long enough to realistically see improvement. You are kind of doing some more of the same thing now. September is only 10 days away--unless the class doesn't start until September 30.

It reminds me of a some of my friends who used to freak out because they were afraid that their kid (at a year) wouldn't be able to get into an appropriate kindergarten if they didn't get them into a prekindergarten so they would know how to behave in kindergarten.

There are some very good reasons to take puppies to group puppy classes and some equally good reasons to not start individual classes that are two hours long for a five month old puppy. Two hours is a very long time for a puppy and even though it's not like you've be working her at anything in particular for that length of time you and she would probably get more out of the group class at this point.

If this were my puppy (I can tell she's not because she still bites you) I'd put her in the group class (although I'd have probably had her in a group class at 4 months) and go through that before I'd invest in private sessions.

I'll also be checking out some pro trainers from the website if this one doesn't work out.
That's OK but it sounds like the trainer you've located comes well recommended and is doing all the things I'd look for if I were seeking behavioral training help

The leaving the room thing seems to work about 70% of the time, other 30% she distracts herself.
You've only been trying this method for a few days--and it's working 70% of the time? If she distracts herself it's still working. The idea is to make her stop biting you and do something else instead. At any rate--your first post about the biting problem was 8/14--today is only 8/19. Consistency and time are the things that work when you are trying to fade unacceptable behaviors (biting) it isn't going to happen overnight--sounds like in the five days you've been trying the "leave the area" method there has been a significant improvement.

Barely works in the yard though but I don't try as often because the fallen fence hasn't been fixed.
FIX THE FENCE! You can't work without tools--the fence, in this case, is a tool. You can't say it doesn't work when you aren't doing it much because one of your tools is missing--it's like trying to build something that needs a hammer but you don't have one so you are using a brick that doesn't work very well because it crumbles when you pound on a nail with it.

With the excess yard time her recalls gotten noticeably better, so I guess theres an upside to all of this! Hopefully good updates to come thanks again
Yeah, that's good--it's a far sight better than no progress at all--keep us posted on the progress.
 
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