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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
First time with female dobie-had male before-breeder said not to spay until
4 yrs old,something about incontinence problems ? BUT the vet tells us do it soon. Who is right ? want to do the right thing.

Also breeder tells us not to do all the shots,except rabies.We lost a 3 yr old Zeus-the perfect dog from Betty Clark in Pa just after injections.Turned out to be liver failure.Breeder blames too many injections-the vet said not so. Why does a healthy 3 yr old fill up with fluid and die a terrible death in great pain all of a sudden from liver failure days after having injection required by the vet ?

harry from pa
 

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joie de vivre
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Spay whenever you want. As far as I know, there is no known correlate between age of spay and incontinence. Some bitches have it, some don't. My girl Tali has incontinence and she'll be 4 in May. My girl Fiona doesn't have it and she'll be 3 in April. Both girls were spayed around 6-7 months old.

I have no idea what to say about the liver issue and vaccinations. Hopefully other more experienced members will chime in.
 
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Personally, I am not for annual vaccinations. Long story short, I believe the studies that show how the european dogs have better longevity than our north american lines and they do not vaccinate every year. For my dogs, I will do the first year vaccinations but I will not re-vaccinate after that and I will only do rabies after they are at least 6 months of age.
As for the early spay/neuter. Our older girl Jasper was spayed at 6 months and she now has incontinence issues. Our young girl, Jordan is a show girl so she cannot be spayed yet. But, even if she could be, I wouldn't spay her until she is 18 months old. That is my preference. I believe that they benefit during their development from their hormones and I also believe the studies that show there is an increased risk of bone cancer after early spay/neutuer. Some don't, but I do. Basically, when you come down to it for every study and reason that supports early spay/neuter there is another that is against it.
 

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My regular vet has not given annual vaccines in over at least 10 years now. Even from the beginning with DHPP after 3 sets of puppy shots, we go to 3 years.

It's hard to say if vaccines caused the liver issue. Liver issues are sadly also becoming more common in our breed. I'm sorry for your loss.

No shots worries me personally. I'm all for minimal shots myself.
 

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Nothing bad to breeders OR vets, but if your breeder is just that. They didn't go to veterinary school. Does your vet tell you which puppy to purchase or which line is better? Probably not.

I am a fan of minimal vaccines but NOT for puppies. The risk for common diseases such as parvo, distemper, etc far outweighs the slight chances of vaccine related issues.

Unless you have a greater reason to NOT spay (show, responsible breeding, etc) I am a fan of spaying while they're still a pup. Less risk and the procedure is easier when their organs are smaller. Young pups seem recover quicker from surgery than the 7-12 month old dogs whose surgeries I've worked on.
 
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sufferin succotash
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I sure would like to see some statistical evidence from scientific/academic journals to support this statement.

Personally, I am not for annual vaccinations. Long story short, I believe the studies that show how the european dogs have better longevity than our north american lines and they do not vaccinate every year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the reply's. I am new to this site and still learning.

On the puppy shots..she is 30 lbs today and ..we had the DHPP shot today and should be going back in a few weeks for more.

It's just that after the loss of our other dobie, the breeder said he had way too many boosters and too close together. We got another dog from another breeder and were advised to be careful with the shots.

Thats 2 well know breeders telling me almost the same thing. Just do whats needed when young along with rabies.

Problem is I am not sure whats needed. Been getting different answers from different people. Thats why I signed up on this forum. I thought there would be more knowledge here rather than listening to a guy who has a friend who knew a guy who had a dog.

It would seem I made the right choice. Thanks for the answers, and keep them coming-need all the info I can get before I make up my mind.
THANKS to all.

harry
 

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Why is the rum gone?
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My vet will do a titer to see if Griffin needs vaccinations. Other than rabies, which is required by law, titer is the way I go. There's no point in doing annual shots if he doesn't need it. If your vet is willing to consider titering, ask him/her about doing that instead of just shoving more vaccinations into your dog.

Also puppy pics! We like them. :D
 

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If Sophie is four months old, the puppy series of DHPP vaccinations should be done. It is not a question of how many vaccinations are given, but of at what age is the last delivered. A four month old pup should be able to serioconvert (become immune as a result of vaccination), which means the vaccination given today should be effective even if earlier ones were not. If she has not had a rabies vaccination, it will be legally required that that be done. I do a couple of puppy vaccinations and a single adult booster (I am re-thinking the booster, and will probably quit this with future animals), and I keep pretty much legal on rabies (although I am often "forgetful" and a couple of months late with the first one LOL!). I do not do anything but the core vaccines (no bordatella, lyme, lepto, corona virus). My girl is over eight and has not gotten anything but rabies since she was a year and a half old. Her titers were high the last time they were run, and I no longer think that titers are necessary unless one needs to produce them in order to train or board or whatever. I am sorry that you lost your dog and I obviously can have no clue why that happened... I do not think that I would necessarily see this as a result of vaccination, though, and suspect that the timing was coincidental and that he was congenitally predisposed to liver disease.

As for speutering... educate yourself! This is a medical decision which is properly to be made for each individual animal by an informed owner. Your pup does not belong to your vet, but to YOU! You may give his opinion whatever weight you choose, but the actual decision is yours. I, personally, choose to no longer de-sex dogs for the purposes of my convenience and birth control. There is much more to be considered than simply the risk of incontinance: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf.

Are you still in touch with Betty Clark? She took a dog back after his owner (with whom I was on various lists) died, and I have always wondered how he fared after stories about him were no longer posted to the lists... he would be an old boy now, but could still be around.
 

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sufferin succotash
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There are many threads on spay/neutering but only you can make the decision as to what you feel is best for your situation.


The DPC, Tappan Zee had a guest speaker on this topic which IMO is very enlightening.



We Are Pleased to Present Our 2011 Dinner Speaker
Ms. Parvene Farhoody, MA, CABC, CDBC, CPDT-KA
Presenting Altered States: Behavioral Effects of Spaying and Neutering Domestic Dogs
Spaying and neutering domestic dogs is generally accepted as a relatively benign procedure and is routinely accepted as a means to correct behaviorial abnormalities.
IS THERE ANY SCIENTIFIC DATA TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS?

Ms. Farhoody says there is not. She examined the data from 10,839 dogs evaluated by the Canine Behavior and Research Questionaire. When carefully studying the data from this massive study, she
found many contradictions to the prevailing view the neutering positively effects behavior. Among the findings were that neutered dogs were more aggressive, fearful, excitable and less trainable than
intact dogs.

Come join us for an incredibly enlightening presentation by a gifted, dynamic speaker on a topic that will challenge what you have believed to be true. She will present data pertinent to the Doberman
Pinscher as well as other breeds. Be prepared to have your world rocked!!!!


More info on Parvene, from personal recollection:
Parvene Farhoody is an animal behaviorist and dog trainer working in Manhattan. Her website for her business is Parvene Farhoody - Professional Animal Training Consultant Her thesis synopsis about which she will speak is at http://dpctz.com/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf as well as many other places online.

In her time as a trainer, when faced with a dog with a behavior problem, Parvene would recommend neutering or spaying. She would then continue to train the dogs after surgery. She was noticing that behavior did not get better after S/N, and in some cases got worse.

Parvene then somehow, for her Masters thesis at Hunter College, was able to access the data collected in the C-Barq questionnaire. This can be found at C-BARQ: Canine Behavioral Assessment & Research Questionnaire

C-BARQ is a series of questions to be filled out by dog owners and it covers behavior, aggression, trainability, and in collecting data, it also collects data on whether the dogs being described by their owners are spayed or neutered. Information on close to 11,000 dogs had been collected by C-Barq at the time that Parvene began her work. Any one of us can participate and in fact, I have done C-BARQ survey with three of my dogs, so their data is included in Parvene’s study, as part of that close to 11,000 dogs.

What Parvene found when analyzing C-BARQ was that there is a higher incidence of behavioral problems in dogs who are spayed and neutered. She further breaks this down into WHEN the surgery was done, her conclusions support leaving dogs intact unless there is a medical reason to neuter and leaving bitches intact as long as possible as the medical benefits of spaying are not as great as they may lead you to believe.

Parvene also did work with Christine Zink, DVM on bone length and S/N. They found longer bone lengths in dogs who were altered early, before closure of growth plates. She wonders in her talk if perhaps this may be a reason there is SUCH a high incidence of bone cancer in Rottweilers (I think she picked that breed out). Paraphrasing her talk at PCOTC, if you have a rottweiler, do not spay or neuter unless you absolutely MUST at any age. The data presented in the paper I attach is just preliminary and does not discuss her theory of bone cancer being connected to S/N delay in bone plate closure.

There is a paper by Laura Sanborn, written in 2007, http://dpctz.com/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf which is a review of work done to show whether spaying or neutering really and truly is better for our dogs medically. The bottom line is that it is not. Spaying early does not effect incidence of mammary cancer any more than spaying at the age of 3. Neutering does not protect against anything medically except maybe enlarged prostate.

The information Parvene collected changed her from an across the board pro-neutering trainer to one who appreciates that we are not doing our dogs, our training program, any favors by spaying or neutering at any age.
 

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My vet will do a titer to see if Griffin needs vaccinations. Other than rabies, which is required by law, titer is the way I go. There's no point in doing annual shots if he doesn't need it. If your vet is willing to consider titering, ask him/her about doing that instead of just shoving more vaccinations into your dog.
Titer testing is AWESOME. I love it for adults that come into the rescue if we don't have a vax history.
 
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Here is some info on Neutering/Spaying
Its not the whole study it is 12 pages long. You can do a search for the rest of the study. A good time to Spay/Neuter would be from 18-24 months


Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007
Precis
At some point, most of us with an interest in dogs will have to consider whether or not to spay / neuter our
pet. Tradition holds that the benefits of doing so at an early age outweigh the risks. Often, tradition holds
sway in the decision-making process even after countervailing evidence has accumulated.
Ms Sanborn has reviewed the veterinary medical literature in an exhaustive and scholarly treatise,
attempting to unravel the complexities of the subject. More than 50 peer-reviewed papers were examined to
assess the health impacts of spay / neuter in female and male dogs, respectively. One cannot ignore the
findings of increased risk from osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and other less frequently
occurring diseases associated with neutering male dogs. It would be irresponsible of the veterinary
profession and the pet owning community to fail to weigh the relative costs and benefits of neutering on the
animal’s health and well-being. The decision for females may be more complex, further emphasizing the
need for individualized veterinary medical decisions, not standard operating procedures for all patients.
No sweeping generalizations are implied in this review. Rather, the author asks us to consider all the health
and disease information available as individual animals are evaluated. Then, the best decisions should be
made accounting for gender, age, breed, and even the specific conditions under which the long-term care,
housing and training of the animal will occur.
This important review will help veterinary medical care providers as well as pet owners make informed
decisions. Who could ask for more?
Larry S. Katz, PhD
Associate Professor and Chair
Animal Sciences
Rutgers University
New Brunswick, NJ 08901
INTRODUCTION
Dog owners in America are frequently advised to spay/neuter their dogs for health reasons. A number of
health benefits are cited, yet evidence is usually not cited to support the alleged health benefits.
When discussing the health impacts of spay/neuter, health risks are often not mentioned. At times, some
risks are mentioned, but the most severe risks usually are not.
This article is an attempt to summarize the long-term health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter
in dogs that can be found in the veterinary medical literature. This article will not discuss the impact of
spay/neuter on population control, or the impact of spay/neuter on behavior.
Nearly all of the health risks and benefits summarized in this article are findings from retrospective
epidemiological research studies of dogs, which examine potential associations by looking backwards in
time. A few are from prospective research studies, which examine potential associations by looking forward
in time.
SUMMARY
An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm
health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter
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correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do
not yet understand about this subject.
On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially
immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated
with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.
On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)
On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may
exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the
odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the
relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.
On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors
On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


As for Vaccines look up Dr. Gene Dodds. Lots of info on her site

CANINE VACCINATION PROTOCOL - 2005
MINIMAL VACCINE USE
Note: The following vaccine protocol is offered for those dogs where minimal vaccinations are advisable or desirable. The schedule is one I recommend and should not interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It's a matter of professional judgment and choice.

AGE OF PUP VACCINE TYPE
9 - 10 weeks
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy DPV)
14 weeks Same as above
16 -18 weeks (optional) Same as above
20 weeks or older, if allowable by law Rabies
1 year

Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
1 year

Rabies, killed 3-year product (give 3-4 weeks apart from distemper/parvovirus booster)

Perform vaccine antibody titers for distemper and parvovirus annually thereafter. Vaccinate for rabies virus according to the law, except where circumstances indicate that a written waiver needs to be obtained from the primary care veterinarian. In that case, a rabies antibody titer can also be performed to accompany the waiver request.
 
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