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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I ran into someone who just gushed to me that he trains police dogs and true protection dogs.

His argument is that Dobermans are C/D so the offender cannot grab anything. He also told me schutzhund is a sport and not real protection.

What is real protection? Don't the police dogs follow guidelines similar to schutzhund and French ring?


Please, educate me :)
 

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From what I have read, yes, that is the reason behind cropping and docking.

Schutzhund and Ring are sports, developed from protection work. It was originally designed to test the suitability of a dog for police or military work.

I don't know what "real" protection would involve, but I do know that police dogs are trained to bite anywhere on a person's body they can get a hold of. Most police patrol dogs are also crosstrained, doing both apprehension and another job, such as explosives or drug search.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hmm, so why aren't GSD and Malinois cropped or docked? Their tails are long, and if we were to truly follow the history of the crop, their ears are still too long and would need to be cropped.

I'm still confused on 'true' protection work, need to do some more digging...
 

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personal protection dogs they are supposed to be. :)

they stick to you like glue.....do not run off chasing someone or something.

kinda hard to protect you when they are not near you all the time.

hence the velcroness of the breed. :)

or something like that.....

i have never trained one of my dogs, but some have naturally been personal protectors.

others.......not so good at it. maybe they could have been 'trained' to do so, but i have no idea if it would of made them want to do it.

many say you cannot trust your dog to protect you until they are trained to do it or are put to the 'test' and prove they will.................

all i know is...I trust Stormy to not leave my side for anything or any reason, and that is the way he has always been, loyal and trustworthy. :)
 

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Yeah, that's my opinion also, but, don't forget, they were originally bred to herd sheep and other livestock. Most herding breeds aren't C/D (there are exceptions).

As for "true" protection work, maybe it's a dog who sees anyone approching their owner as a threat, and thus, bites first, and asks questions later? I remember a few years ago, some celebrity's (don't remember who) "protection dog" mauled a flight attendant during a flight. Lots of people were like "Well, she shouldn't have gotten too close to the celebrity." Um, unless the flight attendant actually tried to manhandle said celebrity, the dog shouldn't have bitten.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Ya, I'm just getting a little confused.

I know the origin of C/D was for hunting dogs, so they won't get chewed up by bears, lions, and whatnot.

For the Doberman, I read That Louis wanted the ears to be cropped for the increased range of hearing and improve the appearance.

Or is this all wrong?
 

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ooooops, not a schutzhund and French ring person...........

I'll try to expalin how Stormy reacts to strangers approaching into our 'space'.

He makes direct eye contact with the stranger, stays close to me with usually a part of him touching me, foot, shoulder, etc. but not pushing into me, just letting me know he is there.
Then, depending on how close the person gets or how loud they speak, he will omit a low growl if he thinks they are too close and too loud, pushy, etc. Sometimes he will move into a position where he places himself between me and the stranger.
The person/stranger will usually notice him of course and will back off a bit, lower their voice and comment on what a nice dog he is and how well trained he is ( I no longer explain that he is not trained he is just doing what comes naturally, cause they never believe me anywho. :) )
So, to me, Stormy is an awesome personal protection dog.

forgot to mention..he is off lead when all this happens as i rarely have him collared and leashed.

Have I told you guys how much i love my mutts. :)
 

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Increase the range of hearing? I hadn't heard that one. Funny thing about C/D, and what breed gets what done. Weimeraners were originally bred to hunt big game, just like Great Danes. Danes are cropped, but not docked, and Weims are docked, but not croppped. Go figure. Beauceron, Briards, and Bouvier are cropped, GSDs and Belgian sheep herding breeds aren't. Rhodesian Ridgebacks supposedly bred to hunt lion, are neither cropped nor docked.

Speaking about stuff people used to believe about dogs, do you know that the phrase "The hair of the dog that bit you" originally comes from the ancient Greeks? They believed that if you took some hair from a dog that had bitten you, and bandaged it to the bite, you wouldn't get rabies.
 

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about the dobie cropped and docked thing.....I think Louis had a picture of the type/look of dog he wanted to breed, he liked the erect ears and short tail but he could not figure out how to breed the look, so, the cropped and docked Doberman came into being.

I have heard many reasons for the cropping and docking.....but me thinks it is just others thoughts on why it 'should' be done.
 

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about the dobie cropped and docked thing.....I think Louis had a picture of the type/look of dog he wanted to breed, he liked the erect ears and short tail but he could not figure out how to breed the look, so, the cropped and docked Doberman came into being.

I have heard many reasons for the cropping and docking.....but me thinks it is just others thoughts on why it 'should' be done.
Sounds like as good a reason as any other. I alway heard the "so noboby could grab the ears or tail" argument, myself. Of course, Old English Sheepdogs were supposedly docked to avoid a tax, so there are any number of reasons to crop or dock.
 

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Your question about what "real" protection training is and how it relates to Schutzhund is a lengthy discussion.

The short answer is Schutzhund is a temperament test that has evolved into a sport.

The "Protection" phase of Schutzhund is a demonstration of a dogs willingness/ability to perform the exercises. Does the fact that a dog can pass a Schutzhund test actually mean anything? Sure it does. That was the whole point of the test in the first place. Remember though, the protection exercises of Schutzhund are not protection training per se, they are a basic test.

A dog that can pass a Schutzhund test may very well be able to perform at least some level of real protection work. The odds are good since the dog has proven at least some minimal ability. Serious "Real" protection training is more involved than Schutzhund and puts much, much, much more pressure on a dog.

There are dogs that will growl, bark or even bite as a protection dog. Many Schutzhund dogs when given a little bit of extra training will probably fall into this category. That is probably all the ability we generally need from a protection dog. When people start talking about "Real" protection, they are generally talking about a dog that will fight with an aggressive human being, and continue fighting even when it's getting it's a$$ kicked. There are actually not many dogs of any breed that can do "real" protection work.

The importance of tests like Schutzhund is to identify breeding stock. "real" protection dogs, police dogs, SAR dogs, etc. are produced from dogs that have proven themselves through Schutzhund, KNPV, Ringsports and so forth.

These sports should be viewed as either sports just for fun, or else viewed as temperament tests and starting points for what you want to do with a dog afterwards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Your question about what "real" protection training is and how it relates to Schutzhund is a lengthy discussion.

The short answer is Schutzhund is a temperament test that has evolved into a sport.

The "Protection" phase of Schutzhund is a demonstration of a dogs willingness/ability to perform the exercises. Does the fact that a dog can pass a Schutzhund test actually mean anything? Sure it does. That was the whole point of the test in the first place. Remember though, the protection exercises of Schutzhund are not protection training per se, they are a basic test.

A dog that can pass a Schutzhund test may very well be able to perform at least some level of real protection work. The odds are good since the dog has proven at least some minimal ability. Serious "Real" protection training is more involved than Schutzhund and puts much, much, much more pressure on a dog.

There are dogs that will growl, bark or even bite as a protection dog. Many Schutzhund dogs when given a little bit of extra training will probably fall into this category. That is probably all the ability we generally need from a protection dog. When people start talking about "Real" protection, they are generally talking about a dog that will fight with an aggressive human being, and continue fighting even when it's getting it's a$$ kicked. There are actually not many dogs of any breed that can do "real" protection work.

The importance of tests like Schutzhund is to identify breeding stock. "real" protection dogs, police dogs, SAR dogs, etc. are produced from dogs that have proven themselves through Schutzhund, KNPV, Ringsports and so forth.

These sports should be viewed as either sports just for fun, or else viewed as temperament tests and starting points for what you want to do with a dog afterwards.
Thank you. Do you have any videos of dogs doing real protection work? Is this what police dogs are trained to do? Who would require a real protection trained dog?
 

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Thank you. Do you have any videos of dogs doing real protection work? Is this what police dogs are trained to do? Who would require a real protection trained dog?
Sometimes it can be difficult to tell whether a dog believes in it's head that the work is "real", that is part of the reason real protection training is different from sports. The drills may not appear much different. You can witch a video of a dog being challenged, threatened and roughed up. If the dog looks good on video- is it because the dog knows the helper & scenario and is comfortable, or is it because the dog has the combination of genetic ability and training to take on the bad guy? "Real" protection trainers will work dogs in a huge variety of environments using things like hidden sleeves and muzzles to keep the dog focused on the person and not equipment.

Yes, in theory, Police Patrol dogs are trained in "real" protection work. In reality, the level of training a police dog receives is dependent on the department's mindset and the level of experience within any given PD.
 

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Historically, I think there were many reasons for docking. Some people that docked their cart-pulling and working dogs could avoid a tax, since the dog wasn't a pet. Some were docked to keep the tail from interfering with their work or from getting broken.
As for cropping, I don't know what the reason was historically. Today it is for aesthetics, and pretending that it's for something else just weakens our argument.

I don't know much about protection trained dogs, I'm no help there.
 

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Ya, I'm just getting a little confused.

I know the origin of C/D was for hunting dogs, so they won't get chewed up by bears, lions, and whatnot.

For the Doberman, I read That Louis wanted the ears to be cropped for the increased range of hearing and improve the appearance.

Or is this all wrong?
I have an old book published in the 1920's by Schmidt, who was there in the beginnings of the breed in Europe. He said that ears were cropped because dogs ran loose in those days, and dog fights were common. Cropping the ear was a safety thing for dogs...less ear, less chance of it being ripped to shreds. Looking back with hindsight, there were no antibiotics at that time, so cropping ears also meant less ear, less chance of injury and subsequent infection.

Honestly, I think that's a FAR more likely reason for the cropping that was done on early dobermans. If a dog was going to protect me, I'd WANT the bad guy to try to grab the dog's ears-the dog would just snake around and grab their arm. A very foolish move on their part.

A lot of sport (schH and ring sport) dogs would NOT protect in a real life situation. You don't know if any dog will really do real life protection work until it's own life is on the line on the streets..even dogs who do K9 training are on a conditional basis until they actually bite a bad guy.

The difference is the dogs who are used for police work are considered more "civil" than the sport dogs. Here's a link that describes civil drive.

Definition of Civil Drive for Police/P. Protection Dogs - page 1 - German Shepherd Dog
 

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Thank you. Do you have any videos of dogs doing real protection work? Is this what police dogs are trained to do? Who would require a real protection trained dog?
Oops, I did not answer the last part of your question. Nobody requires a real protection trained dog. Not even the Police. If it was something that was required then every Police department, if not every officer, would have one.

A dog that has gone through "real" protection training is just another tool in your tool box.

Anyone who expects to rely on a dog for any level of protection should train for it. If you expect your dog to bark at prowlers, then you want to set up scenarios with prowlers and reward the dog for barking. This also lets you know if your dog is going to just sleep through someone breaking into your car outside. If you believe that the dog will alert you when in reality the dog sleeps like the dead, well... your expectations are unrealistic.

Same thing goes for an expectation that your dog will fight with (or even just bite) a bad guy. If you don't train and test for it, you really have no idea what the dog will do. If through training you learn that your dog isn't going to fight with a human, at least you know what the realistic situation is.
 

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I have always liked this video of some Mals doing police training. These are all training senarios.

Police Malinois - YouTube
LOL, I can't help it, I laugh every time I watch the dog bite his handler and he starts trying to sling it off! "Dude... you KNOW you ain't gonna get the dog off your arm that way!!!"
 

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LOL, I can't help it, I laugh every time I watch the dog bite his handler and he starts trying to sling it off! "Dude... you KNOW you ain't gonna get the dog off your arm that way!!!"
Lol, ya I do too. Goes to show you... don't get in the way of a serious dog doing serious work.
 

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This is a link to a site that has some good definitions of drives and videos of testing dogs. Some are sport dogs being tested for psd candidates.
 
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