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so why are my posts getting deleted? is this a board where if you dont agree with the admin, yourp osts are deleted without the admin/moderators defending their own choices in what breeders they will support?


this breeder breeds kimbertal dogs, has not titled a dog on their own to my knowledge, and breeds Z-factored dogs.
 

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LCGSD -- if you are interested in getting a dobe, i would be more than happy to point you in the direction of where to find responsible breeders --
if you are in AZ< there is one MARVELOUS breeder who does health testing, titles, and has many dogs competing in a variety of sports in your area. and the breeder is one of the most ethical people i have come across!
 

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I am the owner of Thunderstorm Dobermans . I would like to correct the statements made by " Dober kim " .
WE DO NOT bred Z factor dobermans . Nor do we just breed Kimbertal dogs ......lol . I invite you to study the pedigrees of our Doberman on our website , they are very well known euro lines, and not z factors. Our Stock is health tested with results on each of their individual pages . Two of our Doberman ARE titled In conformation , another is titled in work , and another youth who is shortly earning her national champion title . Just wanted to clear that up .
 

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thunderstorm said:
I am the owner of Thunderstorm Dobermans . I would like to correct the statements made by " Dober kim " .
WE DO NOT bred Z factor dobermans . Nor do we just breed Kimbertal dogs ......lol . I invite you to study the pedigrees of our Doberman on our website , they are very well known euro lines, and not z factors. Our Stock is health tested with results on each of their individual pages . Two of our Doberman ARE titled In conformation , another is titled in work , and another youth who is shortly earning her national champion title . Just wanted to clear that up .
Hi thunderstorm and welcome to our site.

I am glad that you took the time to make a post about your Breeding program. Sometimes information is reported in error or perhaps from rumor. I applaud your efforts of having the information available on your website about your dogs and their health.

I can not speak for Doberkim but I am sure if what you say is fact she would be more than willing to either prove her information or apoligize for her comments towards your breeding program.
 

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thunderstorm said:
I am the owner of Thunderstorm Dobermans . I would like to correct the statements made by " Dober kim " .
WE DO NOT bred Z factor dobermans . Nor do we just breed Kimbertal dogs ......lol . I invite you to study the pedigrees of our Doberman on our website , they are very well known euro lines, and not z factors. Our Stock is health tested with results on each of their individual pages . Two of our Doberman ARE titled In conformation , another is titled in work , and another youth who is shortly earning her national champion title . Just wanted to clear that up .
so lance- you deny that samantha's dog cyrus is a Z-factored dog? you deny speaking about this topic on other lists and how we had to explain to samantha what z-factored MEANT? do you think we are all as stupid as to believe that just because you dont have the dogs listed on your website, you didnt own them or breed them?

So, please - tell me what the pedigree of chief black thunder is.

How old was he when he was first bred? what titles and health testing did he have then? considering he JUST turned 2 recently - how many litters has he sired?

Tell me lance, which dogs did YOU TITLE, and which dogs did you BUY from european brokers with titles?

how long have you owned dobermans lance? How many dogs have you trained and titled, which allow you to be a breeder that has the knowledge to determine dogs temperaments, dogs working abilities, and what proper structure is?

in comparison to how long you have owned dobermans and how many you have trained and titled - how many litters have you produced lance?

what wonderful lines was mistress von storm from?

you mean to tell me chief black thunder IS NOT out of kimbertal?
seems to me they own the sire - and the dam has kimbertal in her name and all over her pedigree.

would you like me to post his pedigree? seems to me it isnt on your website, is it?

-sick of it all,
kim
 
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yup, id be proud to say my dog came from kimbertal, and that the other bitches i own are from the same lines kimbertal is currently pushing off on unsuspecting idiots... (forget that marcia is also breeding them)

http://www.kimbertal.com/decpups.html
 

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Lance, you never owned or bred or sold a puppy from a litter from:
(please notice the Z registration!)

Mistress Von Storm
WZ00549806
Doberman Pinscher / Black and Rust
Female / APR-06-2003

Tell me, how old was she when she was bred?
 

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Kim , I see your still ranting . I dont have any excuses to make to you . I , myself showed and Recieved the Titles on both Thunder and on Rebecca.
All the results of the complete health testing is listed on each of their pages of the website .
I do not own Mistress storm . I do not currently have or breed ONE single z factor, nor will I ever own one, or breed one in the future. We breed european Doberman .
Its interesting to me that you imply that I " bought some titles from a euro dog broker " . Neither Rebecca OR YAMMY had titles period , when I purchased them . I take great offense to the comments bashing the integrety and the quality of both Djan and Elena as people , and the quality of the work they have done to benifit the breed .
They are the farthest thing from brokers you would ever find . They are great people , and take great care of their kennels and lines . It is their life , and they take it very seriously !! I dont recall seeing you in Bratislava Slovakia at the IDC this year , or you and I could have had our words in person . I suppose I was across the Atlantic ocean , learning how to be a bad breeder huh *rolls eyes *?
No, I think I was there talking to europes finest breeders , studying the dogs in my dogs pedigrees , looking at up and coming prospects , and soaking up all I could possibly learn .
I have been involved with doberman for 3 years , I have trained 6 , titled 2 in conformation , in the progress of titling 2 more in obediance . And would have already titled Thunder in work if there was a club anywhere close to here . Also 5 have trained & worked in bitework .
I have assed many litters , and young dogs . Under the aprenticeship of two American protection trainers , a German breeder , and a Hungarian breeder as well . I think by now I know what I am looking at when I see it , I have learned a great deal along the way . Changed alot of things , and no doubt still have much more to learn , but thats BREEDING, an on going lesson .
I do not care if you want to go to the trouble of posting Thunders pedigree, I have nothing to hide . The proof is in the putting , he is an excellent Doberman .
Pedigrees are not as important as the actual specimen , and that dogs genetic potency .
Kimbertal did a wise thing to better their stock with the euro studs that they purchased.
Kim do you have a program ? A website ....anything ? It easy for you to just pop in , say a few things , but yet not have any great credits yourself ( that I know of ) . I would be interested in knowing about you and your dogs, and their great qualities .
 

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nice to see you are still dodging the subject lance :)

for the record lance - you didnt even know how to spell WHELP with your first litter. someone had to correct you. you were asking for help with the litter ONLINE.

thunderstorm said:
I , myself showed and Recieved the Titles on both Thunder and on Rebecca.
to international championships? thats it, right?


All the results of the complete health testing is listed on each of their pages of the website .
its nice you health tested thunder after he was already bred.


I do not own Mistress storm . I do not currently have or breed ONE single z factor, nor will I ever own one, or breed one in the future. We breed european Doberman .
except for the litter you ALREADY bred -- notice you avoided addressing what you did in the past? are you denying that samantha bought a male from you that is z-factored? DID you own mistress von storm? where is she now, and how did you come about selling puppies from one of her litters?

you breed european dogs, except for the fact that chief black thunder is half american, and not even good lines at that.


They are the farthest thing from brokers you would ever find . They are great people , and take great care of their kennels and lines . It is their life , and they take it very seriously !! I dont recall seeing you in Bratislava Slovakia at the IDC this year , or you and I could have had our words in person . I suppose I was across the Atlantic ocean , learning how to be a bad breeder huh *rolls eyes *?
really? then why do they have american breeders brokering their litters? why do they send dogs to america without checking a single thing out? sorry, responsible breeders dont ship litters overseas without approving homes. learning from huge kennels doesnt make you a great breeder lance -- you could have 50 dogs and still be doing the breed harm - just look at kimbertal -oops, you already bought one of their dogs!! looks like you are learning from the BEST!!!! being able to manage a huge kennel with as many dogs as altobello has, doesnt make them a good breeder.


I have been involved with doberman for 3 years , I have trained 6 , titled 2 in conformation , in the progress of titling 2 more in obediance . And would have already titled Thunder in work if there was a club anywhere close to here . Also 5 have trained & worked in bitework .
wasnt chief black thunder your first doberman?
its spelled obediENce - what kennel club will you be showing them in?
what 5 dobes have you had that were trained in bitework? how have you done that if you just in the previous sentence used the great excuse of there not being a close enough club?


I have assed many litters , and young dogs . Under the aprenticeship of two American protection trainers , a German breeder , and a Hungarian breeder as well . I think by now I know what I am looking at when I see it , I have learned a great deal along the way .
was this before or after you pumped out how many litters?

seems you avoided my questions lance.

did you or did you not produce z-factored dogs.

is chief black thunder from kimbertal or not.

how many litters have you produced already?

how many litters from UNTITLED DOGS have you produced?

how many working titles have you put on your dogs, since you sell "working dogs"?

at what age did chief black thunder sire his first litter?


I do not care if you want to go to the trouble of posting Thunders pedigree, I have nothing to hide . The proof is in the putting , he is an excellent Doberman .
Pedigrees are not as important as the actual specimen , and that dogs genetic potency .
you have nothing to hide, except that you refuse to post thunders pedigree ON your website! i wonder why that is?
its PUDDING, the proof is in the PUDDING. how much pudding should a barely 2 year old doberman have?????

Kim do you have a program ? A website ....anything ? It easy for you to just pop in , say a few things , but yet not have any great credits yourself ( that I know of ) . I would be interested in knowing about you and your dogs, and their great qualities .
no lance - the best thing i can do for the breed is accept that not every doberman is worthy of being bred. my dogs have worked in obedience and titled and my doberman is neutered. my credit is that i have protected the breed in that respect by realizing that only the best of the best need to be bred. my dogs have had many great qualities - but none of them overpower the fact that they have no business being bred.


if only more people could realize that.
 

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Just to chime in my 2 cents as a novice Dobe owner... First impression of the thunderstorm site is disturbing enough to prevent further investigation for future purchase. The dog on the front page has an improperly fitted pinch collar on and the pics of the "bite work" look like a bunch of yahoos harrassing a dog in a back alley... That is just a first impression and I'm relatively unbiased...
 

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Tracy , I can understand your concern . And I am willing to beleave that you are a novice Doberman owner . The collar on Thunder is a prong collar and IS fitted correctly, snug ,as it should be .
The " Yahoos " that are " harrassing " the dogs in the pics are professional trainers/decoys/helpers, you can learn much more about them and their 15 years of training experiance by researching them on the web .
Jon Naroditski : Fala wood k-9
Todd Bartelstein: Morgans dogs www.morgansdogs.com
The pictures that you see are still pictures from cival aggitation sessons . This is a widely known method of foundation in protection work .
I realize that not everyone trains their Dobermans in protection , and that you may not be aware of methods used . So I want to take time to help expain to you what you are seeing in the pictures and hopefully it makes more sense to you . I would be happy to explain if you have any other questions .
 

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I'm, gonna have to agree with Tracy. When i first came across that Site i was shocked to say the least. I, really didnt know what to think.
 

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Kim , What do you really know about altobello or any european breeders ? They have " brokers " Because they are very busy ,and are all over eastern europe in shows almost every week . But that is the last of the reason they have a " broker/s " .Another is a language barrier.
Since its obvious that you dont know much about euro dobermans and the happenings over there . I will enlighten you as to why Altobello is sending dogs to the USA .
First of all they know that the American gene pool can benifit from the dogs they produce . And also specifically because they are still in a part of europe( Serbia ) that will allow cropping and docking . Within the next 1-2 years , no one will be allowed to show , work , or compete with cropped or docked dogs at all . So a lot of their dobermans are coming the the USA.
there is certainly a few hoops to jump through to qualify to be able to receive a dog from them , or their" broker/s " , as you can see this on the broker/s website . Kim says :" being able to manage a huge kennel with as many dogs as altobello has, doesnt make them a good breeder. " lol , maybe being awarded best breeder at the 2005 IDC does ! But Im certain you will see it otherwise as you always do .
What it boils down to, you and I are never going to agree about anything . You are not a breeder...by choice , which is certainly fine , and I am a breeder . If you dont agree with what I do thats also very fine . We just have different views , goals and plans .
 

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lance, you can keep posting anything you want, making excuses, spouting off.

however, your inability to answer my direct questions is all anyone really needs to know about your ethics, your past, and what you have "accomplished" and what sort of breeder you are, have been, and desire to become. in case you missed them the two other times:

did you or did you not produce z-factored dogs?

is chief black thunder from kimbertal or not?

how many litters have you produced already?

how many litters from UNTITLED DOGS have you produced?

how many working titles have you put on your dogs, since you sell "working dogs"?

at what age did chief black thunder sire his first litter?





there is a lot more to being a breeder than producing puppies.
 
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