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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all,

My quest for a dobe continues and I appreciate all the advice and knowledge that is shared in this group. I recently was able to get in contact with a breeder who seems reputable. Dream-Catcher Dobermans out of Indiana. The breeder does health testing and shows dogs for confirmation.

He typically only breeds yearly and has a waitlist. Due to covid he breed 2xs in the past year with his most recent litter being born this week. I have spent an hour in the phone and numerous texts. Due to the large size of his recent litter (13 pups - 9 bitches) he has an extra female that would be available. I am interested in a female so that works for me. I have searched on here for information on this breeder and there is only one thread and nothing negative is said.

He has sent me the health testing on both the stud and bitch, and both are listed on dobequest. My question is as a novice reading the results and the dogs 4 gen pedigree, should this be a litter I should consider. I will attach both of the links below.

My main concern is the dcm 1&2 hetero positive results on the bitch. I've researched this until I'm blue in the face. I have read thoughts on both sides of the fence. My question is someone with more knowledge look at these two dogs results and pedigree and see if I'm on the right track.

Again I appreciate all the help I've received on here and will continue to lean on you guys for sound advice. See below for links to dobequest.


 

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I would cautiously say that you are probably fine. The DNA results are of no concern as they have been pretty much proven to be worthless in predicting which Dobermans will get or not get DCM. I would be more concerned with the fact that both sire and dam have on had the 24 hour holter done and not a cardiac ultrasound. I've noticed too much of this type of testing lately. I think more people are buying a holter monitor and then skipping the more expensive Cardiac Ultrasound testing. It is really important to do both as they test for two totally different things - both of which are deadly. I would say that if only one was done, I'd want it to be the Ultrasound as they generally run a quick EKG. If something shows up on the EKG, then I'd be very concerned. I also did not see Thyroid results or blood test results for either of them. So these are things I would ask for.
Otherwise, the pedigrees were decent.
 

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Is Dream on the South West Side of Indy ? I have not been there - but just asking - I'm on the East side of Indy ;

M.J. , and this is sad to say , there is only one place in Indiana that had a Cardiologist for dogs and it's A Purdue in West Layette IN . There is a problem getting them done around here , I talked to Joyce one day and She takes her dogs to Kentucky to have heart work done . I think that is the problem , not that they don't want to do it , it's just finding somebody to get it done . Just me thinking out loud here .

Good luck on finding your puppy and let us know if and when you get one --- Pictures required , lol
 

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Is Dream on the South West Side of Indy ? I have not been there - but just asking - I'm on the East side of Indy ;

M.J. , and this is sad to say , there is only one place in Indiana that had a Cardiologist for dogs and it's A Purdue in West Layette IN . There is a problem getting them done around here , I talked to Joyce one day and She takes her dogs to Kentucky to have heart work done . I think that is the problem , not that they don't want to do it , it's just finding somebody to get it done . Just me thinking out loud here .

Good luck on finding your puppy and let us know if and when you get one --- Pictures required , lol
That sounds like an excuse. Breedings are generally known MONTHS ahead of time which is ample time to get an appointment.

1. I would ask to see the test results. What some people say is "normal" doesn't match my version of normal.
2. Why isn't the bitch finished?
3. I don't love or hate the pedigrees, don't really like seeing Blue in a pedigree along with so many dogs that have no cause or date of death. I'd encourage you to look into the dogs in those pedigrees and see how they died. The breeder SHOULD know, but I doubt they do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I will say this in the breeders defense, he does know the longevity of 4 gen of the bitch and stud. None of which passed from cardio. The breeder also purchased his halter in order to improve his breeding and the breed in general.

Again, just learning and trying to get the healthiest dog with a great temperament.
 

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That sounds like an excuse. Breedings are generally known MONTHS ahead of time which is ample time to get an appointment.

1. I would ask to see the test results. What some people say is "normal" doesn't match my version of normal.
2. Why isn't the bitch finished?
3. I don't love or hate the pedigrees, don't really like seeing Blue in a pedigree along with so many dogs that have no cause or date of death. I'd encourage you to look into the dogs in those pedigrees and see how they died. The breeder SHOULD know, but I doubt they do.
G-Red - I was not making any excuse's - just stating facts that there is none close to get some of the testing done here in the sticks . I called Purdue to see If I could get Kadin in there to have him checked - first thing the gal ask me if he was sick - I said no , just want the testing done on him - which she replied then you will have to have a Vet call and request it . Hopefully - I will take him to Lexington KY to have both him and girl checked , that will be a 2 1/2 drive - one way .

I still can not believe that there is not one Cardiologist's in Indy and that there is only one place in North West Indiana that does it .

I agree with you that breedings are planned months ahead .

I have no idea about this breeder - but will say I have heard of them for many , many years , and heard nothing bad about them .
 

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I will say this in the breeders defense, he does know the longevity of 4 gen of the bitch and stud. None of which passed from cardio. The breeder also purchased his halter in order to improve his breeding and the breed in general.

Again, just learning and trying to get the healthiest dog with a great temperament.
If you do our home work, you will find that this statement is not accurate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
If you do our home work, you will find that this statement is not accurate.
How is my statement not accurate? I've spent hours speaking with this breeder and a couple others. This breeder had the least amount of red flags of the breeders I have spoken with or researched. I don't for one second believe he is a byb or puppy mill.

I also don't want to get on here and slander a breeder with the small amount of knowledge I have (which occasionally happens on this forum). Is there something I'm missing or should be looking at? A vague question/answer doesn't help me or anyone else for that matter. And I say that with respect because it's hard to gage intention or tone in text form.

So please elaborate or at least point me in the direction I should be researching/doing my homework.

Thanks
 

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Question. whats the best dna test out there for a dog thats already been born? The person i bought from did tests. but i want to know more

PS: i am never breeding my girl
 

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Just go to the Dobequest links that you posted and you will find dogs that died of Cardio. So the statement, "I will say this in the breeders defense, he does know the longevity of 4 gen of the bitch and stud. None of which passed from cardio.", is simply not true. This does not necessarily make him a bad breeder, but either he does not know himself or he is not telling you the truth. There are others listed on Dobequest that I suspect "could" have died of DCM, but do not list a date or cause of death. However, you need to do your own research and not have me give you all of the information. It is part of your due diligence.
 

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How is my statement not accurate? I've spent hours speaking with this breeder and a couple others. This breeder had the least amount of red flags of the breeders I have spoken with or researched. I don't for one second believe he is a byb or puppy mill.

I also don't want to get on here and slander a breeder with the small amount of knowledge I have (which occasionally happens on this forum). Is there something I'm missing or should be looking at? A vague question/answer doesn't help me or anyone else for that matter. And I say that with respect because it's hard to gage intention or tone in text form.

So please elaborate or at least point me in the direction I should be researching/doing my homework.

Thanks
I just went back and looked at the pedigrees and some of the dogs in the four generations had only DCM 1 and DCM 2 done--not even a Holter--and it looks like Echo's were rarely done. Here's the thing--DCM's 1 & 2 are valuable mostly because of studies on going when it comes to the genetics of Doberman DCM. People have a very similar form of DCM and the studies on that have been being done for years--they are up to around 22 or 23 genes that seem to be part of the cause when it comes to DCM. Polygenetic diseases are really hard to talk about clear vs not clear with only two gene pairs so I don't think you can really count on these dogs proving that there is no cardio behind them.

I also noticed a number of breeders whose breeding lines I know pretty well and there is actually a significant amount of cardio scattered around behind some of them. I'm not nearly as familiar as the first and second generation dogs but I'd like better cardio testing. Or maybe I should say more complete.

I not trying to put up a bunch of red flags either but I really want to see Holters and echo's done at least yearly from between two and three years (cardiologists will tell you that earlier than two years immature hearts do such crazy things that you can't rely on those readings but from three on I'd really like to see both sire and dam with testing yearly--that's the most valuable way to know what is going on with hearts--it's based on seeing what is happening as a trend.

dobebug
 

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Hello all,

My quest for a dobe continues and I appreciate all the advice and knowledge that is shared in this group. I recently was able to get in contact with a breeder who seems reputable. Dream-Catcher Dobermans out of Indiana. The breeder does health testing and shows dogs for confirmation.

He typically only breeds yearly and has a waitlist. Due to covid he breed 2xs in the past year with his most recent litter being born this week. I have spent an hour in the phone and numerous texts. Due to the large size of his recent litter (13 pups - 9 bitches) he has an extra female that would be available. I am interested in a female so that works for me. I have searched on here for information on this breeder and there is only one thread and nothing negative is said.

He has sent me the health testing on both the stud and bitch, and both are listed on dobequest. My question is as a novice reading the results and the dogs 4 gen pedigree, should this be a litter I should consider. I will attach both of the links below.

My main concern is the dcm 1&2 hetero positive results on the bitch. I've researched this until I'm blue in the face. I have read thoughts on both sides of the fence. My question is someone with more knowledge look at these two dogs results and pedigree and see if I'm on the right track.

Again I appreciate all the help I've received on here and will continue to lean on you guys for sound advice. See below for links to dobequest.


I think only you will be able to make a decision about a puppy. Everyone will have a different opinion and everyone has different values and places different weights on different qualities when it comes to pedigrees, what health tests are important to them, what kind of temperament they want, what they want in a relationship with a breeder, etc. That's part of what makes all of this so challenging.

All I can tell you is that most of us would say putting weight in the genetic DCM tests is fairly worthless when it comes to the health and longevity of your dog. They have NOT been predictive about whether a dog will develop DCM. Dogs have tested positive for one or both genes and never developed DCM. Dogs have tested negative for one or both genes and have developed DCM. So I personally would not recommend you put much weight into those genetic tests.

Others have wanted to not say it, but what they are referring to about a DCM death in the first four generations of the pedigree is that the bitch has CH Ravenswoods Azure Sky RA in her pedigree. He is well known to have died of DCM.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I think only you will be able to make a decision about a puppy. Everyone will have a different opinion and everyone has different values and places different weights on different qualities when it comes to pedigrees, what health tests are important to them, what kind of temperament they want, what they want in a relationship with a breeder, etc. That's part of what makes all of this so challenging.

All I can tell you is that most of us would say putting weight in the genetic DCM tests is fairly worthless when it comes to the health and longevity of your dog. They have NOT been predictive about whether a dog will develop DCM. Dogs have tested positive for one or both genes and never developed DCM. Dogs have tested negative for one or both genes and have developed DCM. So I personally would not recommend you put much weight into those genetic tests.

Others have wanted to not say it, but what they are referring to about a DCM death in the first four generations of the pedigree is that the bitch has CH Ravenswoods Azure Sky RA in her pedigree. He is well known to have died of DCM.
I thank you all for your responses and I value all of your information. I have truly leaned on this community far more than any other groups that I have been apart of.

This is a huge decision for me and my family, and I often suffer from analysis paralysis. While the initial expense doesn't bother me, nor does the long term expenses. It's the loss of my future best friend and family companion that I'm trying to prolong. We have waited 5 years since our boxer passed suddenly from cancer. I/we just want to make sure we are able to obtain a healthy happy dog that will be around for longer than some of the DCM horror stories that you read about. I know this is apart of life, but like I said analysis paralysis.

Thank you all for your guidance.
 

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Way to hang in there Copeland.
Lots of great details provided by all. Quite interesting actually.
We have a great bunch of experience within this forum so stay with us.
 

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The fact that the breeder misinformed you would make me walk away. If he doesn't know, that's fine, he should state that (and frankly shouldn't be breeding) but either way, in my opinion, he lied. One dog in particular is well known, anyone in the fancy would know him and how he passed. My bet is, he didn't think you would do your research. If I were you I'd do as I and others suggested and research how the dogs died and then go back to him and tell you how you feel about him lying to you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I misspoke...the breeder did advise me of this, I had an hour long conversation of notes. For whatever reason I put cancer instead of cardio. I'm guessing my note app auto corrected the words. So the breeder did not lie, but my concern is still the same. Is it normal or at least ok for there to be 2-3 in a 4gen pedigree die of cardio issues? The breeder has been nothing but forthcoming and has provided references and has great communication skills.

Also I'm new to this can someone explain why the CH Ravenswoods Azure Sky RA death is so infamous. A lot have pointed to this, but there is little information on why. If you aren't comfortable discussing this in an open forum, please dm me to fill me in.

Also, due to the large litter size (13) 2 puppies passed last night. Is that normal or a red flag?

Again I apologize for the confusion and as I always say damn auto correct.

Thanks
 
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