[monicaei]

I was reading an old, and particuarly contentious thread (not interested in even linking, it was quite the mud slinging stupidfest) BUT on there someone said that a show breeder had HOME CROPPED. Please please please tell me this isn't something normal in the show breeder circuit. I have seen rescues come through the doors after some idiot took scissors to their ears. It makes me want to take scissors to delicate parts of them.

Unless you have a surgical suite/OR for a living room, this is the most appalling thing I have ever had the misfortune to even THINK about.

 

[OliviaB]

When I worked for a vet, we saw several rescued pit bulls who had home crop jobs. They looked horrible of course and I can't even begin to imagine the pain....makes me sick.

 

[RedFawnRising]

I was reading an old, and particuarly contentious thread (not interested in even linking, it was quite the mud slinging stupidfest) BUT on there someone said that a show breeder had HOME CROPPED. Please please please tell me this isn't something normal in the show breeder circuit. I have seen rescues come through the doors after some idiot took scissors to their ears. It makes me want to take scissors to delicate parts of them.

Unless you have a surgical suite/OR for a living room, this is the most appalling thing I have ever had the misfortune to even THINK about.

It is true that some breeders use laypersons who come to their homes, to do crops.

 

[PatchworkRobot]

It is true that some breeders use laypersons who come to their homes, to do crops.

My boy's breeder flies in some retired vet friend from way up north to do every one of her litters (even flew the person down for her singleton). The crops are stunning and all the puppy pictures I've ever seen look completely healthy. That being said, I don't actually know where it's done.

 

[blueberry]

I have heard that some of the better croppers are not vets....i don't really know....i'm not a breeder.

 

[Adara]

I was reading an old, and particuarly contentious thread (not interested in even linking, it was quite the mud slinging stupidfest) BUT on there someone said that a show breeder had HOME CROPPED. Please please please tell me this isn't something normal in the show breeder circuit. I have seen rescues come through the doors after some idiot took scissors to their ears. It makes me want to take scissors to delicate parts of them.

Unless you have a surgical suite/OR for a living room, this is the most appalling thing I have ever had the misfortune to even THINK about.

It's quite possible the surgery was done at home. Not with scissors and no pain meds, but using someone competent at the home, anesthesia, etc.

 

[mmctaq]

There's cropping at home, and there is butchering ears.

My mother bred Miniature Schnauzers when I was a kid. She cropped all of her own puppies in the kitchen. My father was a human physician, and did the anesthesia and monitoring and such. My mother also did all of the actual cropping for the veterinarian for whom she worked while the vet did anesthesia... she was simply better at it than he was. Most of the show folks (with breeds she did) in central Ohio used the vet my mother worked for in order to get her ears.

The only part of cropping at home that bothers me is the illegality (which was not an issue many years ago... it was perfectly legal to crop puppies which belonged to you) and the small possibility of something going wrong necessitating equipment or medications which would not be available. My mother never had an issue, but Schnauzers do not possibly carry vWD.

If a show breeder (as you mentioned being discussed) is cropping at home, they are having in someone who can do a show crop. This is not going to be the same person who hacks off a puppy's ears with pruning shears or a butcher knife.

 

[akturbo]

I have heard of vets doing it in peoples homes, I have also see pits with their ears cut with scissors.

 

[mmctaq]

Unless you have a surgical suite/OR for a living room, this is the most appalling thing I have ever had the misfortune to even THINK about.

To take a litter of seven week old pups with immature immune systems who are possibly (or probably) at risk of contracting parvo and such to a place where ill animals congregate, and then stress them with anesthesia and surgery is also a little bit appalling.

 

[monicaei]

To take a litter of seven week old pups with immature immune systems who are possibly (or probably) at risk of contracting parvo and such to a place where ill animals congregate, and then stress them with anesthesia and surgery is also a little bit appalling.

True, but a sterile environment (as ORs should be, but we know isn't always the case) seems a logical place to perform surgery, to me. Along with properly sterilized tools, appropriate anesthesia and the capability to monitor an anesthetized animal, ventilation, etc. Does anyone think cropping an animal NOT under anesthesia (pop a few pain pills in him, maybe) is even close to ok?

 

[mmctaq]

Does anyone think cropping an animal NOT under anesthesia (pop a few pain pills in him, maybe) is even close to ok?

Of course not. Is that what we are discussing? Is it alleged that the show breeder who was having puppies cropped in her home was not using anesthesia? I am pretty sure that in order to be certain of a nice job, it would be necessary for a puppy to be unconscious.

 

[monicaei]

My boy's breeder flies in some retired vet friend from way up north to do every one of her litters (even flew the person down for her singleton). The crops are stunning and all the puppy pictures I've ever seen look completely healthy. That being said, I don't actually know where it's done.

Just a guess, but I would think a vet would get "hospital privileges" or whatever the veterinary equivalent is and use an OR. Super cool that your breeder does that.

Anybody want an "at home" nose job? I'll give you a few Valium and we can do it in my kitchen? :rolleyesww:

 

[akturbo]

It is not ok at all. BUT it does happen. I have not heard of it happening to Dobermans though, just pits and bullies..

 

[monicaei]

Of course not. Is that what we are discussing? Is it alleged that the show breeder who was having puppies cropped in her home was not using anesthesia? I am pretty sure that in order to be certain of a nice job, it would be necessary for a puppy to be unconscious.

IDK, but to anesthetize an animal requires ventilation and monitoring, using equipment most people don't have on hand. If they are using it, why would you move all that into your home? And if you aren't a vet, where are you getting BOTH the equipment and the drugs?

 

[mmctaq]

Just a guess, but I would think a vet would get "hospital privileges" or whatever the veterinary equivalent is and use an OR. Super cool that your breeder does that.

Anybody want an "at home" nose job? I'll give you a few Valium and we can do it in my kitchen? :rolleyesww:

Veterinary licensing is by state. A vet who is not licensed to practice in a state may not use an operating room in that state... a vet who would grant that opportunity to an out-of-state vet would probably lose his license over it.

Again: is it being alleged that this show breeder is having puppies cropped while NOT under anesthesia? My mother used to draw on ears, study what she'd drawn, fix it until she was satisfied, then do the incision slowly and carefully and finally suture. This would not be possible to do unless the puppy was fully unconscious, don't you agree?

 

[Abby]

Some of the best croppers out there aren't vets. A friend of mine in another breed had their litter cropped in a persons home, some of the most beautiful ears I've seen, and my friend was also allowed to watch the process and said it was fast and easy on the puppies- he contributed some of the ease to not being in a stressful situation like a vets office.

 

[monicaei]

Veterinary licensing is by state. A vet who is not licensed to practice in a state may not use an operating room in that state... a vet who would grant that opportunity to an out-of-state vet would probably lose his license over it.

Again: is it being alleged that this show breeder is having puppies cropped while NOT under anesthesia? My mother used to draw on ears, study what she'd drawn, fix it until she was satisfied, then do the incision slowly and carefully and finally suture. This would not be possible to do unless the puppy was fully unconscious, don't you agree?

Didn't know that about vets, thanks.

No, the dog clearly would have to be unconscious (or heavily sedated), but you did mention your dad was an MD. Meaning SOMEONE COMPETENT was watching, so that example is not what I find appaling. The "lay person" idea however... Um, ok so sure, anyone can dose the appropriate amount of veterinary anesthesia drugs (hell, I bet I can google dosage by weight right now) What if something goes wrong?? What's the backup plan in someones living room? Again the medical equiptment and drugs, knowledge of sterile technique, etc... Where is this coming from, and why move it into your house?

 

[DogsR4Life]

Didn't know that about vets, thanks.

No, the dog clearly would have to be unconscious (or heavily sedated), but you did mention your dad was an MD. Meaning SOMEONE COMPETENT was watching, so that example is not what I find appaling. The "lay person" idea however... Um, ok so sure, anyone can dose the appropriate amount of veterinary anesthesia drugs (hell, I bet I can google dosage by weight right now) What if something goes wrong?? What's the backup plan in someones living room? Again the medical equiptment and drugs, knowledge of sterile technique, etc... Where is this coming from, and why move it into your house?

Im curious too. If the puppy is indeed knocked out by drugs (easy enough, some propofol would do if isoflurane cannot be wheeled in) what is keeping the puppy's airways clear? If the puppy is intubated is it hooked up to oxygen?

General protocol in my area (Its not law, but it is encouraged) is that the animal must have an emergency port (IV line) just in case it needs atropine, or any other drug. Do breeders also follow that protocol?

I honestly didnt know some breeders crop their litters at home, until i read this thread :emo6:

 

[monicaei]

Im curious too. If the puppy is indeed knocked out by drugs (easy enough, some propofol would do if isoflurane cannot be wheeled in) what is keeping the puppy's airways clear? If the puppy is intubated is it hooked up to oxygen?

General protocol in my area (Its not law, but it is encouraged) is that the animal must have an emergency port (IV line) just in case it needs atropine, or any other drug. Do breeders also follow that protocol?

I honestly didnt know some breeders crop their litters at home, until i read this thread :emo6:

+1000
Thanks for saying more eloquently what I was trying to ask.

 

[mmctaq]

No, the dog clearly would have to be unconscious (or heavily sedated), but you did mention your dad was an MD. Meaning SOMEONE COMPETENT was watching, so that example is not what I find appaling. The "lay person" idea however... Um, ok so sure, anyone can dose the appropriate amount of veterinary anesthesia drugs (hell, I bet I can google dosage by weight right now) What if something goes wrong?? What's the backup plan in someones living room? Again the medical equiptment and drugs, knowledge of sterile technique, etc... Where is this coming from, and why move it into your house?

Heavily sedated wouldn't be adequate, I don't think.

The example of my parents cropping is from long, long ago. There was not modern anesthesia to be had (I suspect that chloroform was used, but I am not sure). In a vet's office or in my parents' kitchen, probably not much could have been done had something gone wrong.

As for what goes on now, people who have litters to be cropped need to learn what they can, balance factors and come to what they feel is the best decision for their situation. I really would be uncomfortable having a litter of baby puppies exposed to a veterinarian's office... does that balance not having certain emergency equipment? I dunno... I haven't had to make that decision. If I have a litter of show pups and want ears that are done by someone on the other side of the country, is it better to travel far and long with a dozen pups and then back again, or better to illegally fly in the person who does those ears? Again, I haven't had to make that decision. In a perfect world, I would want to have the cropping I bought be legal, be as stress-free as possible, be as free of exposure to communicable disease as possible, be as medically competant as possible, and be as aesthetically pleasing as possible... I suspect that it is very rare to be able to fully satisfy all of those criteria, and so one has to weigh this factor against that and make the best decision possible. Not everyone's decision will be the same, and I don't think that that necessarily makes anyone wrong.