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Lanah Chi-Cairn X 6 y/o, RIP Eva HADR Rescue Dobe, Sunking's Spock, Lillah Chi-Terrier X
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Eye opening video!! Unfortunately, NatGeo had it removed from YouTube because of CopyRight infringement!! Maybe someone has it posted somewhere else? :confused:
 

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Yeah... I'm pretty sure a kick to my ribs would make me stop ANYTHING. Sure as **** wouldn't teach me what I was supposed to do though.

This is ridiculous. Really enforces my method of positive training.
 
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joie de vivre
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What a complete POS.
 
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I am torn about the Ceasar thing. I have watched the show, but only to witness postures and as the article said, timing. I have also noticed that often times the dogs have zero drive while being "obedient". I would be depressed if my dog carried herself the way the dogs on that show often do. Actually you know what? She does. If we are out for a walk around the block like many of those dogs are, she does carry herself like that. She is relaxed and has very little drive. So is he breaking their will? No one knows for sure what really goes on on that show. Personally I don't think those kicks hurt the dog. 99% of the dogs I have ever interacted with take harder hits chasing a ball or playing with friends. Do I kick my dog? Absolutely not. Have I tapped her on the back or gave her a collar correction. Yes.

What we do know is that he is at least doing something. Whether or not its for profit its better than nothing. He is a huge advocate for exercise and that is usually at the forefront of every single case. If at the bear minimum people tried his "techniques" before sending their dog back to the shelter maybe we could get somewhere. All the uneducated dog owners I know thrive on his show. For the laymen his method (basically escape avoidance) gets results faster than any positive reinforcement training I have ever witnessed and gets people started on something which IMO is better than nothing.

Most recently I tried to show a friend how train to loose leash his boxer. He is at his wits end with this dog. Dog is very drivey, under-exercised, but very biddable if you can find a way in. I told him to get a prong, but not to use it until I was around to show proper fitting and use. I was showing him how to lure the dog where he wants her using play,praise and treats. Told him it would take a fair amount of time but well worth it. He looks disgusted about the future effort and says to me "she listens great when I crank the prong.... I'm just going to do that"

Basically no one wants to go through the effort required and I think Ceaser no matter how we feel about his methods, is at least giving some people hope and having them try something.
 

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I am torn about the Ceasar thing...

What we do know is that he is at least doing something. Whether or not its for profit its better than nothing. He is a huge advocate for exercise and that is usually at the forefront of every single case. If at the bear minimum people tried his "techniques" before sending their dog back to the shelter maybe we could get somewhere. All the uneducated dog owners I know thrive on his show. For the laymen his method (basically escape avoidance) gets results faster than any positive reinforcement training I have ever witnessed and gets people started on something which IMO is better than nothing.

He looks disgusted about the future effort and says to me "she listens great when I crank the prong.... I'm just going to do that"

Basically no one wants to go through the effort required and I think Ceaser no matter how we feel about his methods, is at least giving some people hope and having them try something.
I agree with you on some level, but I also think that he is getting people to try the wrong thing. Yes he advocates exercise, but that isnt the part that your average Joe is going to pick up because he doesn't want to put in effort (just like your fella with the boxer).
For example, I was out and about the other day when I saw a man riding his bike with 2 dogs. One was obviously a puppy and not so sure about this whole bike thing. At one point she stepped out in front of the bike and the man hit her. this caused him to dismount his bike and manually run it into her 2 more times. She then freaked and started cowering, at which point the man gave her a fairly hard "kick" (much like what you see Caesar do). This caused the dog to yelp and snap at him. So his response was to hang the dog, then slam it to the ground in an alpha roll. I was pretty horrified, and asked the man what he was doing! He proclaimed, his dog is very dominant and he is just being the alpha. First she was trying to be ahead of him on the leash, followed by snapping at him.
I think this is an excellent example of "Ceasar's way" in the hands of the average Joe. This guys was doing it all. He had the dog out to exercise but was not educated enough to understand that his dog was not acting out of dominance, it was just your average, highly stimulated, and slightly nervous puppy. She just wanted to bounce around and play and did not seem to grasp the Bike concept. What the owner did was use all of the techniques, shown on "the dog whisperer," as tools of abuse, not training. That poor little puppy didn't know what hit her.

In my opinion, nothing good will come of this. I would assume that this dog will eventually elevate to fear biting (she was already on the verge) when her owner "attacks" her during training. No level of exercise is going to help this puppy gain confidence or trust in her human. Not to mention, the damage caused to this little kiddos temperament could mean that she will never be able to be placed in another home if she develops a bite history.

The problem with the things that go on, in this show, is people only see the alpha rolls, the choking, kicking, and the belief that "your dog is dominating you" because they pull on a leash or want to lay on the bed or react at another dog. The only options he presents are complete domination and force over your dog, and that is the part that is dangerous to both the dog and the owner, especially if the owner is completely uneducated to dog behavior and training.

I think I would rather see that poor puppy left alone in its backyard then being physically and emotionally abused for walking in front of its owner. He may be giving people "hope" and techniques to try, but the real question is, are the dogs really better off?
 

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joie de vivre
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I don't consider what he does 'training'. What part of a kick tells the dog what to do?

Training, in and of itself, is teaching the animal desired behavior. What does kicking a dog in the gut teach it? What does holding a dog by it's throat and collar until it pisses itself teach the dog?

It likely makes the impression that you are unpredictable, confusing, scary, and can cause pain without notice. The only thing the dog is learning is uncertainty about you and their own behaviors. I prefer my dogs to be self-confident in their own behavior and decisions, as well as confident in their understanding of our communication.

The vast majority of dogs on his show are not 'calm-submissive'. They are stressed out, nervous, or shut down. I'd rather my dogs respond to me because they trust and respect me, not because they fear me and don't want to get hurt.
 

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I agree with you on some level, but I also think that he is getting people to try the wrong thing. Yes he advocates exercise, but that isnt the part that your average Joe is going to pick up because he doesn't want to put in effort (just like your fella with the boxer).
For example, I was out and about the other day when I saw a man riding his bike with 2 dogs. One was obviously a puppy and not so sure about this whole bike thing. At one point she stepped out in front of the bike and the man hit her. this caused him to dismount his bike and manually run it into her 2 more times. She then freaked and started cowering, at which point the man gave her a fairly hard "kick" (much like what you see Caesar do). This caused the dog to yelp and snap at him. So his response was to hang the dog, then slam it to the ground in an alpha roll. I was pretty horrified, and asked the man what he was doing! He proclaimed, his dog is very dominant and he is just being the alpha. First she was trying to be ahead of him on the leash, followed by snapping at him.
I think this is an excellent example of "Ceasar's way" in the hands of the average Joe. wanted to bounce around and play and did not seem to grasp the Bike conceptThis guys was doing it all. He had the dog out to exercise but was not educated enough to understand that his dog was not acting out of dominance, it was just your average, highly stimulated, and slightly nervous puppy. She just . What the owner did was use all of the techniques, shown on "the dog whisperer," as tools of abuse, not training. That poor little puppy didn't know what hit her.

In my opinion, nothing good will come of this. I would assume that this dog will eventually elevate to fear biting (she was already on the verge) when her owner "attacks" her during training. No level of exercise is going to help this puppy gain confidence or trust in her human. Not to mention, the damage caused to this little kiddos temperament could mean that she will never be able to be placed in another home if she develops a bite history.

The problem with the things that go on, in this show, is people only see the alpha rolls, the choking, kicking, and the belief that "your dog is dominating you" because they pull on a leash or want to lay on the bed or react at another dog. The only options he presents are complete domination and force over your dog, and that is the part that is dangerous to both the dog and the owner, especially if the owner is completely uneducated to dog behavior and training.

I think I would rather see that poor puppy left alone in its backyard then being physically and emotionally abused for walking in front of its owner. He may be giving people "hope" and techniques to try, but the real question is, are the dogs really better off?
I suspect that a vast percentage of dogs ARE better off.

I hear stories like this sometimes (I have NEVER seen anything even vaguely like this myself). The guy who WANTS to hurt his dog does not need an instructional video... the folks who are inclined to behave like this were doing just fine at being abusive to dogs long before Cesar came along, and will be continuing long after the re-runs have ceased running. Some people are just stupid and cruel.

There are a couple of episodes of The Dog Whisperer in which I think a poor approach has been chosen... I suspect Cesar Millan went home those nights and thought to himself, "Man! I shoulda done that differently!" LOL! For the most part, I think he is wonderful. This kicking video is a bunch of crap... a dog reacting to a toe touch with startle is not really my definition of kicking... I am pretty sure I have seen every episode of the show, and I have NEVER seen him really kick a dog. Or abuse a dog in any way. I see phenominal timing and communication presented with clarity and effectiveness and achieving results... I see a person who cares deeply about dogs, and who understands and respects them... no wonder so many "trainers" hate him!

I find it interesting that this thread is running concurrently with one on the breaking up of a dog fighting ring. The general concensus there is that causing the same kind of pain that they have caused to persons who engage in inhumane behavior to dogs is just fine, and is the only way to make them "understand." I find the contrast between that and the presentation of PP training as The One True Way to be kind of interesting...
 

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Cesar was brought up on a farm in Mexico, and was taught 'the old fashioned' way of training a dog. Since his seasons, he has gained huge popularity, but eventually criticism caught up. Instead of defending himself, or turning a nose at trainers who boo him, he actually listened. If you watch the oldest season to the newest, you can see a huge change in his approach, he is now using positive reinforcement more than ever.

For a celebrity to sit back, listen, and change his methods is amazing to me.

Take a look at that Pattison guy who does 'at the end of my leash'. He never modifies his approach to dogs, I have never seen him use positive reinforcement, and he has made no attempt to better his knowledge on the different training methods more and more people are opting for.
 

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After recently seeing the video of him dragging the Mastiff (I think Mastiff) up the stairs, I can't watch anymore of his stuff. It really was cruel and very sad. Here it is

9-St_Bernard_Riley (Abuse).flv - YouTube
 
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After recently seeing the video of him dragging the Mastiff (I think Mastiff) up the stairs, I can't watch anymore of his stuff. It really was cruel and very sad. Here it is

9-St_Bernard_Riley (Abuse).flv - YouTube
It was quick and accomplished what was necessary. Did Riley have fun? Prolly not, but: oh, well... he was certainly none the worse for wear. If it was the most awful thing that happened to him that week, than he had a pretty good week... I didn't think it was sad or cruel, at all. Transitorily stressful, maybe, but I don't think a little stress is necessarily a bad thing. Minor stresses applied and resolved quickly are how an organism learns to deal with stress, and learns that stress is not the end of the world. I think half of the neurotic dogs I see and hear about may be that way because they have never learned to deal with the everyday stresses that are part of ordinary life... they have been handled so delicately and sheltered so thoroughly from anything perceived to be stressful/negative/unpleasant (there's a better word, but I am drawing a blank) that they cannot deal with any bad juju at all, and fall apart. This is what I consider sad and cruel.
 

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It was quick and accomplished what was necessary. Did Riley have fun? Prolly not, but: oh, well... he was certainly none the worse for wear. If it was the most awful thing that happened to him that week, than he had a pretty good week... I didn't think it was sad or cruel, at all. Transitorily stressful, maybe, but I don't think a little stress is necessarily a bad thing. Minor stresses applied and resolved quickly are how an organism learns to deal with stress, and learns that stress is not the end of the world. I think half of the neurotic dogs I see and hear about may be that way because they have never learned to deal with the everyday stresses that are part of ordinary life... they have been handled so delicately and sheltered so thoroughly from anything perceived to be stressful/negative/unpleasant (there's a better word, but I am drawing a blank) that they cannot deal with any bad juju at all, and fall apart. This is what I consider sad and cruel.
An organism?

Your posts always come across as if you are a bitter person. Is this what you intend?

Oh, right you don't rescue. Because they come neutered or spayed. Whatever......all dogs should just be normal in your mind. We should just expect them to all be normal, well adjusted dogs. Not all of them can be Martha. Sorry.

The more I read of your posts, the more I see a very bitter person. Oh, I said that already.

:)
 

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An organism?

Your posts always come across as if you are a bitter person. Is this what you intend?

Oh, right you don't rescue. Because they come neutered or spayed. Whatever......all dogs should just be normal in your mind. We should just expect them to all be normal, well adjusted dogs. Not all of them can be Martha. Sorry.

The more I read of your posts, the more I see a very bitter person. Oh, I said that already.

:)
You are free to interpret anything in any way you choose, of course.

What does my use of the word organism have to do with anything? I specifically did not intend to restrict my comment to any one species... how should I have said it?

What part of anything I said here (or elsewhere, for that matter) would lead you to come to the conclusion that I am bitter?

I have NEVER said that I do not rescue. I have probably picked up, vetted and re-homed (or kept) more animals than the majority of folks here. What I have said is that I will not purchase an animal from a rescue organization. What does this have to do with anything? Does it make me bitter, somehow?

Neither have I ever said that some dogs don't come with baggage or issues or implied that all dogs are normal and well adjusted. What I have said is that a fair percentage which are considered to have issues and are treated as such are far more normal than their owners understand... and, that the perception/treatment of them as somehow damaged does not serve their best interest.

Your whole commentary leaves me mystified. Do you find my posts distressing? Is there any reason for you to read them?

Nice smiley. Whatever did you intend to convey with it?
 

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It was quick and accomplished what was necessary. Did Riley have fun? Prolly not, but: oh, well... he was certainly none the worse for wear. If it was the most awful thing that happened to him that week, than he had a pretty good week... I didn't think it was sad or cruel, at all. Transitorily stressful, maybe, but I don't think a little stress is necessarily a bad thing. Minor stresses applied and resolved quickly are how an organism learns to deal with stress, and learns that stress is not the end of the world. I think half of the neurotic dogs I see and hear about may be that way because they have never learned to deal with the everyday stresses that are part of ordinary life... they have been handled so delicately and sheltered so thoroughly from anything perceived to be stressful/negative/unpleasant (there's a better word, but I am drawing a blank) that they cannot deal with any bad juju at all, and fall apart. This is what I consider sad and cruel.
This seems terribly cruel, too me. I am curious, have you ever been terrified to the point of completely shutting down? I mean really terrified? I am guessing not if you feel that flooding an "organism" with terror is the way to make it stronger. That St. Bernard wasn't experiencing minor stress, it was scared to death of the stairs. Not to mention, The first time I saw this episode I questioned if he had been evaluated by a veterinarian (could his "fear" have actually been pain?)
There are other, better ways to deal with fear. For example allowing your dog, with encouragement, to gain the confidence to approach and encounter the fearful stimuli on there on terms. I dont care how scary something is, through patience and the use of a bag of food and a clicker, the same end could be achieved but the dog would not have to be traumatized, or potentially injured, to accomplish it. At least when the dog encounters "bad juju" then they know they can trust their handler not to impose undue stress.

PS- That experience would likely be the worst thing any of my dogs have experienced in their lives. So would I consider this a bad week for them? Most certainly!
 

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After recently seeing the video of him dragging the Mastiff (I think Mastiff) up the stairs, I can't watch anymore of his stuff. It really was cruel and very sad. Here it is

9-St_Bernard_Riley (Abuse).flv - YouTube
That poor puppy. He was telling Cesar in no uncertain terms, with every way he knew how.. "No, stop, I am scared." aaaaand Cesar just blew it off and forced him. What does that accomplish? It just reinforces the fear, IMO.

If it were my job to get him up the stairs, I'd get him used to clicker training, find a high value treat, and start shaping just touching the stairs. Spend a few days there.. then move to grabbing his treat from a few stairs up... move slowly and build trust and confidence. Guaranteed it would work, and probably have better lasting results.
 
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. Do you find my posts distressing? Is there any reason for you to read them?

Nice smiley. Whatever did you intend to convey with it?
I do read them, because you have provided good information and knowledge.

I do find them distressing on occasion, yes.

And the smile was nothing more than that. Because I am a happy person, which you do not usually come across to me?
 
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