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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I thought it might be interesting to take a look at the pedigree of a backyard bred dog, to help newbies see some red flags and also be warned of the techniques backyard breeders use to trick them.

I'm posting a picture of Shanoa's pedigree below. When I bought her, knowing nothing, I was impressed by the "champion lines" in her background (several generations back).

Knowing what I know now, I see Kimbertal in there - red flag.

No AKC champions, or any titles, for that matter, in the first two generations - red flag.

"International champion" as a selling point - red flag.

Both parents owned by breeder - red flag.

What else can the rest of you point out to help new people understand what they are seeing and why it's a sign of a poor breeder?

 

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BYB Hunter
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Great idea!! Thanks! I am ready to listen to what everyone else can pick out of this!
 
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Sea Hag
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So I thought it might be interesting to take a look at the pedigree of a backyard bred dog, to help newbies see some red flags and also be warned of the techniques backyard breeders use to trick them.

I'm posting a picture of Shanoa's pedigree below. When I bought her, knowing nothing, I was impressed by the "champion lines" in her background (several generations back).

Knowing what I know now, I see Kimbertal in there - red flag.

No AKC champions, or any titles, for that matter, in the first two generations - red flag.

"International champion" as a selling point - red flag.

Both parents owned by breeder - red flag.

What else can the rest of you point out to help new people understand what they are seeing and why it's a sign of a poor breeder?

Your pedigree is very hard to read.

You can't say ALL int. championships as a selling point are a red flag. International championships issued by IABCA (also might be described as UCICB ch.) can fit into that category as a red flag, but that is indeed a desirable title through other registries. An example can be seen in the 5th generation: It says VDH, German Aust. ch. Graaf Quirinus v Norden Stamm. This was a well recognized, well used super star of his time period.

I'd have some reservations about dogs with just a Youth ch. title-many times these dogs get these titles put on them in their home country as youngsters for a selling point, then they're exported really quickly because they wouldn't cut it as a show dog as a mature adult.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I couldn't get it any bigger. Maybe someone with better posting skills will post one?

Thanks for the additional info on the international championship thing. Really interesting, and it's new knowledge for me.
 
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Sea Hag
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I couldn't get it any bigger. Maybe someone with better posting skills will post one?

Thanks for the additional info on the international championship thing. Really interesting, and it's new knowledge for me.
I believe in FCI countries, an Int. champion is a dog who's earned a championship in 3 different countries. Wait, here's the rules:

http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/international Championship_EN.doc

By contrast, through the IABCA, dogs can earn an "international" championship by getting a passing rating under 3 different judges, from two different countries. So a dog could earn one of these "championships" in 3 days, without ever beating another doberman.

HUGE difference in what's required!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I believe in FCI countries, an Int. champion is a dog who's earned a championship in 3 different countries. Wait, here's the rules:

http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/international Championship_EN.doc

By contrast, through the IABCA, dogs can earn an "international" championship by getting a passing rating under 3 different judges, from two different countries. So a dog could earn one of these "championships" in 3 days, without ever beating another doberman.

HUGE difference in what's required!
Dumb question - is there a way to tell a difference in the pedigree for someone who doesn't know anything about that?
 

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Sea Hag
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Dumb question - is there a way to tell a difference in the pedigree for someone who doesn't know anything about that?
It can be very confusing, even in a best case scenario. People can also go out of their way to cloud the issue even more by not including what registry or what countries have awarded the titles to the dog.
 

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An Int'l CH can be on the sire, and when he is bred to a BYB bitch, you still get BYB. My Stormy girl, case in point. :) (I still love you Moo Booby)
 

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Sea Hag
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I'm no expert on European titles, but I imagine there's also a pecking order about what countries the dog earned the champion titles in in order to achieve an FCI Int. championship.

You see dogs (the Kimbertal stud dogs being a good example) listed as being champions of Bosnia Herzogovina, Montenegro, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd suspect earning champion titles in countries like Germany, Italy, etc. are a lot more meaningful, due to the number of dogs showing there and the level of quality.
 

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Graaf Quirinus V Neerlands Stam (if that's who the Graaf Quirinus is) is in Elka's pedigree as well! Same generation.

Other than that, i have nothing to add to the points you've covered.

Really, in Elka's pedigree, the dogs that I looked up who were in Europe tended to be titled front and back, though I don't know the weight of the various countries' championships, obviously. I assume the working titles are still likely to have merit, but that could just be my inexperience talking. The US dogs in Elka's pedigree....were still Dobermans, anyway.

ETA: Sorry, Graaf Quirinus is in Elka's pedigree as a GGG Grandparent (siring Gamon Di Campovalano), and then also as a Great Grandparent (siring Aristo Leo Di "Motta Visconti").
 

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Looking at some of the Euro dogs, here's a simple point: There are plenty of reputable kennels and highly prized dogs in that pedigree. The problem is once their lines went to terrible kennels once they reached the US. I'd imagine that's what Kimbertal (and the like) plays on: "Look at the dogs from Wantij, Citone, Mooreiche, Neerlands Stam in your future puppies pedigree, those were some the finest Dobermann's that ever lived."
 

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The fact that there are not titles in the first two generations is more than a red flag. That's game over!

Rarely will you see that many untitled dogs in the pedigree of a dog bred to compete in some kind of akc dog sport. You might find one untitled dog, but that dog will usually be out of titled parents.

Sometimes a breeder will use a bitch that didn't finish for one reason or another but the parents will invariably be titled. Very, very rarely the foundation of a breeders line will be a bitch from untitled stock.
 

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Doberman Slave
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I don't know how to articulate this well, but it looks like the breedings are all over the place, no rhyme or reason to many of the pairings, i.e. No breeding plan. I guess a novice wouldn't see that anyway.
I don't really think a novice could tell from a pedigree at all though. They would already have to know at least some kennel names to avoid and they would have to understand what generations really affect the puppy.
 

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Not on this pedigree (that I saw), but a buyer should be able to spot the Z-factor designation in the AKC registration number (2nd digit) if it is present.

Is a "WP" the old way to track albinos? I read that somewhere, but I don't know anything about bloodlines, etc.
 

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u mad?
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While not every person would catch it (or care) I would have found it weird that there were all these titled dogs way back a few generations and then nothing recently. Even if I knew NOTHING about the breed I think that would have turned me off.
 

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I don't know how to articulate this well, but it looks like the breedings are all over the place, no rhyme or reason to many of the pairings, i.e. No breeding plan. .

Yes, this is what always jumps out from commercial breedings. They know enough to make sure they have titles although they are way far back. That's how they claim CH bloodlines. Just find anybody with a registed dog who is willing to breed with no questions asked.

An even lower tier of commercial breeding is the pedigree filled with kennel name(usually owner's last name) followed by Red Bull, Black Devil, Silver Bullet-you get the picture.
 

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Sea Hag
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Is a "WP" the old way to track albinos? I read that somewhere, but I don't know anything about bloodlines, etc.
Not necessarily. When the z tracking system went into effect, it wasn't made retroactive, only dogs registered after that date received a z as the second character in their registration number. Dogs registered prior to that date received a "normal" registration number whether they were albino/albino factored or not.

So there are lots of WP dogs who have no ties whatsoever to albinos. You'd have to look at the z list to see if a dog with a regular registration number is on it or not.
 

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Sea Hag
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I don't know how to articulate this well, but it looks like the breedings are all over the place, no rhyme or reason to many of the pairings, i.e. No breeding plan. I guess a novice wouldn't see that anyway.
I don't really think a novice could tell from a pedigree at all though. They would already have to know at least some kennel names to avoid and they would have to understand what generations really affect the puppy.
agreed, that pedigree is all over the place, with no discernible plan whatsoever.
 

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Sea Hag
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Graaf Quirinus V Neerlands Stam (if that's who the Graaf Quirinus is) is in Elka's pedigree as well! Same generation.

Other than that, i have nothing to add to the points you've covered.

Really, in Elka's pedigree, the dogs that I looked up who were in Europe tended to be titled front and back, though I don't know the weight of the various countries' championships, obviously. I assume the working titles are still likely to have merit, but that could just be my inexperience talking. The US dogs in Elka's pedigree....were still Dobermans, anyway.

ETA: Sorry, Graaf Quirinus is in Elka's pedigree as a GGG Grandparent (siring Gamon Di Campovalano), and then also as a Great Grandparent (siring Aristo Leo Di "Motta Visconti").
Quirinus produced hundreds of litters.

Even working titles can be suspect...although on the better known dogs they're probably legitimate. But there are lots of working titles laughably referred to as being earned at midnight in a pub.
 
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