Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,025 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was reading through the Marienburg thread in the breeder section and got to wondering if anyone knows the temperaments of the dogs in my puppy's pedigree.

http://www.kettlecovedobermans.com/goosemateopedigree.html

I never actually met Eddie, so I don't know his temperament even though he seems uber-popular lately (as well as heavy in this pedigree). I was reading the article on CyberDobes Past Dogs about Ch. Teraden's The Chocolate Soldier WAC, CGC and was more than pleased to learn that he is way way back on my puppy's pedigree. So have at it, anyone have any info? Feel free to email me if you think it might start trouble.
 

·
Extraordimary
Joined
·
5,178 Posts
The pedigree is incorrect to the best of my knowledge regarding Soquel's Distant Thunder having a WAC. I don't believe he passed it. I'm not knocking the dog - I have one of his sons and I love him to bits!

I thought about breeding to Mateo at one time - he reminds me very much of my Rocket in his pictures. Sharon has bred to him previously - did she keep any of those puppies?

Anyway, Mateo's sire died of dcm as did his sire Thunder as did Thunder's mom as did a few of Thunder's littermates (and littermates to my Thunder son for that matter).

Eddie died too young for my liking as well. Sure it may have been surgery related but ultimately we don't know what would have happened to him had he had a normal lifespan so he's questionable in my books from that standpoint. Certainly, he has sired some beautiful puppies who seem to have an outstanding work ethic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,025 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
...yay for being scared! Are there any supplements that can help with DCM prone dogs? I'm going to go ahead and assume that it may happen at some point and be happy that it doesn't. I'm going to digest more of the bitch's side of the pedigree. But every sibling dying of DCM? This disease is so horrible. :(

I can't find any DCM on dobequest on Ozzi or Eddie or any of the dams, but it may just be that the info isn't entered.

Looking at how many kids thunder sired, it's sad that DCM is so heavy.

I don't think she kept any of those babies, but here are their 8 week stacked photos:

http://www.kettlecovedobermans.com/puppies2.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,856 Posts
...yay for being scared! Are there any supplements that can help with DCM prone dogs? I'm going to go ahead and assume that it may happen at some point and be happy that it doesn't. I'm going to digest more of the bitch's side of the pedigree. But every sibling dying of DCM? This disease is so horrible. :(

I can't find any DCM on dobequest on Ozzi or Eddie or any of the dams, but it may just be that the info isn't entered.

Looking at how many kids thunder sired, it's sad that DCM is so heavy.

I don't think she kept any of those babies, but here are their 8 week stacked photos:

http://www.kettlecovedobermans.com/puppies2.html
Thunder was born on Murreydobe's (on this board) bed, and she owned his mother. She is the first one to talk about what titles Thunder did and did not have, and she is brutally honest about what they all sired. When she lost Murrey, Thunder's dam- she took an ad out to announce it.

I do not know if all of THUNDER's littermates have died of DCM, but he has sired litters were over 75% of the litter, if not more, has died of DCM before 5 years old.

As for dobequest - it is editable by anyone that is a DPCA member - so even if info is put up, if the owner doesn't want it they can remove it, I believe. Many dogs that a cause of death is KNOWN through one venue or another is still not posted. Many people are still afraid of sharing that they have DCM in their dog - especially when the dogs have reproduced, because they fear a backlash.

As for supplements, there are cardioprotective and cardiosupportive supplements, but do they necessarily make a difference in prolonging time until diagnosis in a dog destined to get DCM, who knows. Sometimes we aren't even sure they help dogs with active heart disease. Can they hurt, not at all (for most of them).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,025 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The internet ate my reply. :(

Thanks Kim and Mary. I'm just unsure of what to do now. When would I need to start echos/holters/etc? Do I get them interpreted in-house or send them to Guelph? At what age can I start supplementing? What food is best for heart support? Obviously everyone wants to prevent the disease, but does anything actually help strengthen the heart?

I really hope there's a website for this.:help_up_2

Also, anyone know of any DCM on the other side of the pedigree? The bitch is an Ozzi daughter and goes back to Eddie on both sides.
 

·
Extraordimary
Joined
·
5,178 Posts
Just to be clear, I didn't say that "every" littermate died of DCM. I think the last I knew that 5 of Thunder's litter died of DCM - murreydobe can correct this info when she returns from Europe. I also didn't say that "every" littermate to my own Thunder son died of DCM.

On the dam's side, it's pretty widely believed that Brunswig's Cryptonite was lost to sudden death DCM - he dropped breeding a bitch. I think he's doubled up in that side?

For me personally, I begin cardiac ultrasounds around the age of 2. I have Holtered as young as 10 or 11 months - if I happen to be Holtering the other dogs and the vest fits the young ones, I don't care how young they are. My ideal schedule is to have cardiac ultrasounds once per year and Holters once per year offset so that they have one of the forms of testing every 6 months. IE ultrasounds in Jan, Holtering in July.

The jury is out on whether cardiac supplements help. Personally, I start giving CoQ10 when they reach the age of about 7.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,332 Posts
Hm, I'm just realizing that Thunder is my FiFi's great great great Grandparent
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,332 Posts
I think he was 10 when he died though, right? That's better than 5 or 7.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
675 Posts
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so I'll ask. Do you mean it's not as sad when Dobermans with less than 'awesome temperaments' die of DCM?

As far as Thunder's temperament goes I never met the dog but he did not have a WAC.

He died at 9 years of age IIRC. I had a Doberman who died of cardiomyopathy at 12 but it still means the genetics are there.

==========================================================

He's closer up in my pup's pedigree by about 2 generations. It's just so sad that dogs with awesome temperaments get so sick. Poor dobies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,856 Posts
Just to clarify - I think you would be hard pressed to find a dobe out there that doesn't have cardio somewhere in it's lines. I don't want to "Scare" you off this pup Jess - everyone has it, it's just a matter of who is honest, how close it is, and that whole part we don't understand, how the gene(s) is/are passed and who carries it.

You could research til you are blue in the face and get all the assurances in the world that there is no DCM, and then have a dog drop dead at 3 years old. You could get a dog from someone that has cardio up close and have no problems and lose the dog at 14 from old age. The problem with cardio is there is NO for sure, there is no guarantee.

What you need to do is what you are comfortable with, what your breeder is comfortable with, and what you feel is right.

As for what I do - rah is turning 2 in a few months, and he will start with both his Holtering and his Echos at that point. I like to do one every 6 months, like Mary said. but then again, I'm fanatical about this :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
151 Posts
You could research til you are blue in the face and get all the assurances in the world that there is no DCM, and then have a dog drop dead at 3 years old. You could get a dog from someone that has cardio up close and have no problems and lose the dog at 14 from old age. The problem with cardio is there is NO for sure, there is no guarantee.
Kim,
I was wondering if our dobes have to deal with cholesteral as we do. Do they deal with blocked arteries? Does that play any part in the DCM? If it does and I use small pieces of cheese as a training aid, would it help if I switched to low fat if it is a factor. Also if this is a concern what about raw diets?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,025 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I was just shocked because I hadn't dove as far into DCM as I should have and didn't realize just how heavy it was in some pedigrees. I'm not scared off the pup at all, but you can damn well bet I will do anything proven to help with heart health in a dobe. When I asked Sharon about it, she was more than forthcoming. Something I thoroughly appreciate.

I will do the 6 month holter/echo starting at 2. I have a cooperative vet and hopefully can get in a group who is buying a holter. Fanatical is safe. Finding the occult can go a long way to keeping that dog around. :)
 

·
Sea Hag
Joined
·
12,933 Posts
Thunder was born on Murreydobe's (on this board) bed, and she owned his mother. She is the first one to talk about what titles Thunder did and did not have, and she is brutally honest about what they all sired. When she lost Murrey, Thunder's dam- she took an ad out to announce it.

I do not know if all of THUNDER's littermates have died of DCM, but he has sired litters were over 75% of the litter, if not more, has died of DCM before 5 years old.
MQUOTE]

Hi everyone! We're back in London, and I sneaked out to the internet cafe down the street from the hotel to check my email, etc. So this will be brief, I can go into more detail if necessary after I get back to the states on Monday night.

To the best of my knowlege, Thunder DID NOT have a WAC.

All together, he's one of six littermates (from a litter of 9) to die of DCM.:(
 

·
Sea Hag
Joined
·
12,933 Posts
I was reading the article on CyberDobes Past Dogs about Ch. Teraden's The Chocolate Soldier WAC, CGC and was more than pleased to learn that he is way way back on my puppy's pedigree. So have at it, anyone have any info? Feel free to email me if you think it might start trouble.
I have a 6 year old Chocolate Soldier son, Rush, who has an outstanding temperament. He's unflappable, the world is your oyster when you're Rush.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,487 Posts
[QUOTE=jatango;58889

I can't find any DCM on dobequest on Ozzi or Eddie or any of the dams, but it may just be that the info isn't entered.

I finally had a chance to go and look at the pedigree, jatango, and the dog that you are referring to as Ozzi (Ch Aeolus' Arabian Knight) is actually Oozi--I thought I knew who Sharon had bred to in the last few breeding so to say I was confused is something of an understatement.

I think someone else commented that there are no lines where you won't find DCM if you are looking at Dobes. Unfortunately it's true. People aren't very forthcoming about what their Dobes died of--and often they don't do necropsies to find out actual cause of death. But I can tell you that there is cardio on the dam's side. And there is a fair amount of suspected but unproven cardio as well in lateral as well as direct lines.

You aren't going to find clean lines anywhere--it's been in the breed since the beginning--you can only play the odds--and hope for the best.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top