Alpha rolling and dominance techniques are severly outdated and ineffective. A better approach when you find him on your bed is to pick him up, put him where you want him (like his dog bed or crate) and reward him for being there.

I would recommend puppy class and beginner obedience class

 

Interesting, Im new to training so wasn't sure, but he didn't always urinate with rolling over. I guess he knew he really messed up and I caught him off guard.

He's been through puppy obedience class, he's doing a more advanced one right now with a one-on-one trainer to polish up his heel and longer stays.

 

Well... Kind of looks like you found out the hard way. Regardless of what the "trainers" told you, in general, dobermans respond extremely poorly to aggressive intimidation. There are exceptions, but none that I would recommend. Ever.

What you are referring is commonly called an "Alpha Roll". Maybe OK for some breeds (and that's a stretch) but with a Doberman, you are asking for behavioral trouble. You may do emotional damage to your dog that will lead to a frightened, insecure, and aggressive dog. A frightened, insecure and aggressive Doberman can become the dog from hell. Not something that I would want.

Basically, IMO, you got really bad advice from those "trainers". it's time to start over.

Here is an article on the subject. It is fairly pedestrian and not well documented, but is pretty right on.

What “alpha rolling” is really doing to your dog — RespectYourDog.Com

Best to you and your boy

John
Portland OR

Oh.. I just saw greenkouki's response. It is, IMO, right on

 

Oh my, alright, the alpha roll is stopping.
I will try the other method. But I feel I need something firmer with him. Ill keep on searching and see what my new trainer has to say about it.

 

karlo.b - your trainer told you to dominate Kai & you were a bit aggressive looking:
- this deletes the pups confidence...all hurtful, to his overall domineer

Pups like this - usually need some form of confidence building / like daily Tug play, at a softer level & OB.
- they will not take much rough handling or harsh body language, either

In the grand scheme of things, who gives a rats a*s / if dog gets up on a mattress.
- you would to, if roles were reversed / so lighten up

Since you obviously picked an inadequate dominate trainer / you might want to skip the future protection training (you seeking facility, in another thread)...stuff like this, can ruin a very nice-kind heart'ed good dog.

I had a mild girl 18 years ago (former Amy) - she taught me to train with Love.
- human smart / language intelligent / liked to please us / and loved her family, more than herself
- and several years after we got puppy, she naturally protected mom from a bad dog attack
- she sub-missed a larger dog, and shielded her mommy from any danger
- she was so proud of herself, sweet girl ...did protection of loved ones naturally
- but we toy & OB trained / educated her mind, through talk / shared our life / spoiled her & bonded big time

Kai can be an awesome dog, but you have to learn to relax some & go with the flow more.
- & remember, ALWAYS BE FAIR & exercise patience and more tolerance / he will surprise you

 

thanks 6-7 for a great post ! This posts speaks volumes to me - every one of our Dobie's have been different to raise - With Mr. B at the top of the list to train - lol Or maybe it was his poor trainer = me - He was more stubborn , but , as 6-7 said - I rewarded him - not with treats - but with more love and praise - - I took him to 2 OB classes - everybody there - rewarded with treats but me - I rewarded him with the that's a very good boy with a thousand rubs and pats and he responses to that - like a good pat on the back sometimes makes you feel good . I'm no PRO trainer - by far - but I do believe that love and praise works on a dog - just like it would work on people - Nobody likes a azz chewing of something they don't know what they did wrong . Good luck

...Ken

 

Hey Karlo!

I just want to say something here. Sometimes folks on DT may come off a bit harsh. Myself, definitely. But in both the short and long run, generally it is not you that is being criticized. It is the obvious misinformation. And sometimes the only way to impress that to the OP is to be emphatic.

Trust me when I say that you are so welcome here and that your reaching out to better your pup's life is what this site is all about.

So gad that you are here!

John
Portland OR

 

The only way that truly works is to scare your dog so badly that he is terrified to ever try it again. Which you might have actually already done.

 

In my book:

Rule # 1 : A dog will do almost anything you want it to do IF IT"S WORTH IT.......so make it worth it....

This breed is very smart so supervise your pup as if it were a human toddler..........timing is everything when praising or correcting....it must happen "IN THE MOMENT". You can only accomplish this kind of timing under strict supervision.

As far as correction you know his current offenses ....set him up ......for instance let's say you are supervising the pup closely .....and out of the corner of your eye you can tell he is getting ready to jump on the mattress....now you are reading your dog....and you just sense that he is going to jump......immediately "in the moment" give him a "consistant" warning sound of some kind. This sound should always be the same and remember dogs have really good hearing, so it can be a very simple soft sound light a hiss sound...etc.
On withthe story ...so he ignored you.....at this moment ...still no words are spoken......calmly go get him off the mattress .....leash him ......calmly walk him to his time out corner ..place pup in a down/stay.......walk away ....
He breaks the down stay again ....calmly walk over put him back into down stay....
he breaks again....put him back......he is reading you .....he is watching your hands, your feet , your facial expressions, so keep putting him back until he stays...
Then eventually the pup realizes he has to stay......or he will never move out of that spot until he does stay....and he stays................you will get the best feeling of success when he responds.
Let him remain in this stay for say 10 seconds...later increase to 15 seconds etc
When he has complied with your request to stay.....then release him.
The goal is: In time your pup will associate "getting on the mattress" = Oh time out in corner then down-stay dog thinks not worth it...........

Dogs learn through repetition so if you manage to go through several rounds of this in the same day ...that's better for you ...because by the forth or fifth time things start sinking in better anyway......

As time goes by when your pup is think'in of the mattress and responds to your warning sound and opts to not get on the mattress.....thus LISTEN TO YOU this my friend is what life with a Dobe is all about ...deserves giving the dog attention ear rub, belly , whatever...then move on with your day.

All of this in hopes the dog will identify .....OH now I understand ....leave the mattress alone= I get attention= worth it !

This rule you can incorporate into anything you are trying to teach .......Make it worth it !

 

Oh wow!
This makes sense, I will try it out with him.
I try to read him as well as possible, before he jumps on people lets say or the mattress ill give him a firm no.

I will try the corner thing.
Maybe it could also work if I put him on a leash tied up to something in the house? I don't want him associating down as a punishment.

Ok - here's what I did to train my pup. He's allowed to be on the couch, but he can't have his toys/bones/chews on the couch, because I don't want a mess.

1. Think of a simple command or phrase (and ONLY one) to tell him when he does the thing you don't want. For me, it was "No toys on the couch"

2. Think of something your dog REALLY LOVES. For me, Radar wants to chew on his toys in a nice, soft, comfy place (preferably while touching me) - so I moved one of his beds right next to the couch.

3. If your dog does the behavior you don't want - use your phrase and redirect to something acceptable that they will still think is really awesome. All I do is look at him calmly and say, "Radar, no toys on the couch". Then I grab the toy/bone (CALMLY, not forcefully), command him to "out" if necessary, and place the toy on his bed. It took a few tries, but now all I have to do is tell him "no toys on the couch", but he rarely even tries anymore.

If you can think of something like that, I bet it would work. You don't have to scare or intimidate your dog to teach them something. You also don't have to go overboard with being overly positive if that's not your thing. This approach would technically count as positive, but the whole thing should be done in a calm manner, as if to say "I'm in charge, and this is what's gonna happen", but also "If you do what I want, you get to have/do something cool that you enjoy".

Awesome! I will try this out for a different situation.
He likes chewing his toys on the hardwood floor, they make a lot of noise, I will redirect him to his bed with the toys.

 

Ok - here's what I did to train my pup. He's allowed to be on the couch, but he can't have his toys/bones/chews on the couch, because I don't want a mess.

1. Think of a simple command or phrase (and ONLY one) to tell him when he does the thing you don't want. For me, it was "No toys on the couch"

2. Think of something your dog REALLY LOVES. For me, Radar wants to chew on his toys in a nice, soft, comfy place (preferably while touching me) - so I moved one of his beds right next to the couch.

3. If your dog does the behavior you don't want - use your phrase and redirect to something acceptable that they will still think is really awesome. All I do is look at him calmly and say, "Radar, no toys on the couch". Then I grab the toy/bone (CALMLY, not forcefully), command him to "out" if necessary, and place the toy on his bed. It took a few tries, but now all I have to do is tell him "no toys on the couch", but he rarely even tries anymore.

If you can think of something like that, I bet it would work. You don't have to scare or intimidate your dog to teach them something. You also don't have to go overboard with being overly positive if that's not your thing. This approach would technically count as positive, but the whole thing should be done in a calm manner, as if to say "I'm in charge, and this is what's gonna happen", but also "If you do what I want, you get to have/do something cool that you enjoy".

 

Your pup is actually pretty young...he will almost certainly outgrow the urinating issue. Since you say it's happening when things are a little scary, I would work on things that build his confidence. Training with a lot of rewards for being "right" will actually work well, here - your pup will feel more and more confident because you'll tell him all day long that he's doing thinks you like. What I like to do is keep little jars of tiny, tiny treats, even kibble, in different rooms in my house, so that I can quickly reward all the things puppies do that are GOOD! Catch your dog sitting nicely? Say "yes!" and give him a little piece of kibble. Lying down chewing a toy? "Yes!" Lying on his bed? "Yes!" I find it SO much easier if you can reinforce all the GOOD things puppies are doing rather than constantly saying no, no, no.... The thing is, dogs do what WORKS...what that means is, if sitting quietly means they get a little treat, they will start doing that more often. The things that you reinforce start getting repeated - dogs are VERY smart.

When Sypha was a pup, I had her gated in my kitchen when I'd cook, so I could keep my eye on her. When she would (briefly) lie down on the bed I had in there, I'd toss her a little bit of what I was cooking. Do you know how fast she figured out that if she stayed on that bed she'd get stuff like bacon? Even now, at age 2, when I cook dinner, she runs into the kitchen and goes to the dog bed. She very rarely gets anything for that, but I have a dog that sleeps on that bed while I cook. Because reinforcement is POWERFUL.

I think you'll be amazed at what he'll learn with more frequent reinforcement. I think I'd also look into playing some scent games with him, because that really builds confidence in dogs - simple things like playing "find it" with a little food.

Try to think of your training this way - can you find more ways to tell your pup "yes" than you can "no"? I think you'll see a lot of progress that way and your relationship with him will really change in a positive way. My dogs are really eager to figure out what I want them to do. Yes, you do use a lot of food early on (I use a portion of their meals, in addition to some treats), but you fade that over time. It's SO worth it to have dogs that love to work for you!

 

Amazing! I do the reinforcements throughout the day so thats a good sign.. aligning with others on here.
I will definitely look into scent work, I wanted to do that with him. Ill just need to figure out how to get him started on that.

To the OP,

You should have titled your post "Fear Urination". Your dog was afraid of you because of your behavior, he is a puppy and you need to control yourself, take a deep breath before you act and have some self control and patience. Would you treat a 2-year old child that way?

It will take you a long time to regain his trust again. I may come across a bit harsh but I hate it when owners put their hand on their dogs like you did. I have had dogs for the past 45 years and have yet let my frustration get the best of me. I guess a dog is just not for everybody.

Our Dobie boy is a rescue and when we got him almost 3 years ago he was an introvert and didn't even know how to play. I took a lot of patience, affection, positive reinforcement and very little mild correction (scolding) and he slowly came out of his shell and is now a happy and outgoing boy. It also took a long time before he would roll over on his back on his own so we can check for ticks, etc. You have to keep in mind that being on their back is pretty much a defenseless and exposed position so they have to trust you. But then, we don't care if he is on our furniture.....see avatar.

OK, I am done and off of my soap box.

I don't think its fear urination, I still believe its submissive urination. As he goes into submission from these scenarios. Ill repeat again, this has happened way before I tried the "roll over technique", with other dogs.

But thanks for the input either way. I see that you mentioned patience, affection and positive reinforcement. All of which im doing.

 

To the OP,

You should have titled your post "Fear Urination". Your dog was afraid of you because of your behavior, he is a puppy and you need to control yourself, take a deep breath before you act and have some self control and patience. Would you treat a 2-year old child that way?

It will take you a long time to regain his trust again. I may come across a bit harsh but I hate it when owners put their hand on their dogs like you did. I have had dogs for the past 45 years and have yet let my frustration get the best of me. I guess a dog is just not for everybody.

Our Dobie boy is a rescue and when we got him almost 3 years ago he was an introvert and didn't even know how to play. I took a lot of patience, affection, positive reinforcement and very little mild correction (scolding) and he slowly came out of his shell and is now a happy and outgoing boy. It also took a long time before he would roll over on his back on his own so we can check for ticks, etc. You have to keep in mind that being on their back is pretty much a defenseless and exposed position so they have to trust you. But then, we don't care if he is on our furniture.....see avatar.

OK, I am done and off of my soap box.

 

Fear urination and submissive urination are basically the same thing.....they come from the same state of mind. You are a big powerful thing to a puppy...other dogs can be too. It's relatively common in puppies and a lot of them outgrow it, but you shouldn't overdo your discipline and trigger that behavior, or you may have to live with it in your older dog.


http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/...al_resources/pdfs/behavior_pdfs/Submissive_and_Excitement_Urination_in_Dogs.pdf

 

I will have a read through this, thank you!

The weird thing is this doesn't happen in every situation. Only extreme cases, like when there was a huge dog that started really barking at him what seemed overly aggressive.

OK, I guess I came across a little strong, sorry about that. Is just that we always (at least for the past 20+ years) get rescue dogs and it always takes a good while to "repair" the emotional damage they usually have and to gain their trust. Just treat him well with patience and he will be best friend for his life.

No worries!
Of course, this is why im trying to get as much education on this as possible, as well as pairing it with the right trainer.
This is my first dog & we all make mistakes

 

UPDATE!

Submissive urination has stopped.
I have been training with him and increasing his confidence.
He is also now closer to a full grown dog, doesn't seem to be phased by big dogs anymore.

0

 

Very handsome boy.

John
Portland OR

 

he gets that a lot!:wink2: