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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is pry gonna land me in the dog house and to the moderator that does it I pry won't blame you. I stumbled across some info that bothered me this sight is well known for being very vocal about what is and is not except able in breeding of dobermans. Lots of people have different ideas but some of the ideas here make me angry. BETTER THE BREED I have heard it in almost every single thread I have read here but after a current near head removal from a certain mystical animal killing member and a Few others I have decided what should have pry been posted was BETTER THE BREED WHEN IT IS EASY AND CONVENIENT.

I know that people want good dogs and that years ago we didn't have all the testing and the breed survived. That is the reason that now people say TEST TEST TEST. But if the breeders are just going to breed bad traits into the next gen. anyway whats the point.

Here's my story I really liked the look of some puppies I saw on here so I looked up the breeder and was appalled to find out that the bitch of the litter was vWD affected. I was shocked to see all the hand clapping that was going on and thought it was ignorance or maybe misinformation so I asked. I was told that a whole litter of carrier puppies was no big deal and maybe if it was just that straight forward it would be but I have some problems with this and here are my reasons.

The bitch is young so how responsible was the breeding that created her?

The affected dog is the one carrying the puppies (if it was the stud I might be more easy to convince)

A breeding program could feasibly eliminate vWD from their lines without taking any DNA out of the blood line by only breeding carrier to clear and keeping clear offspring (carrier spay and nuter only on next gen offspring.)

This is an easy way to fix one of the problems of the breed. If everyone was proactively breeding with ultimatum goal of clear to clear only in the next 10 or 15 years we could have a vWD free line of dobies.

I was so upset about this I called my breeders (I have dogs from two) One was so angry she demanded the name of the sight and the breeder she said she would never own any dog from her line affected carrier or other wise the other compared it to a newbie breeder thinking breeding good hips to poor hips to produce fair hipped pups. it might work in the short run but in the long run it is just making for another gen of 'so so' dobes"

Put me in the dog house if you want to but I am upset and I needed to tell some one why I have such strong feelings about this.


BYB that breeds a vWD affected dog is a horrible person. The breeder that breeds knowing the dog is affected is worse. IMO
:devilangelfight:
 

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A breeding should only happen to better the health of our breed. Period.

There are enough Dobermans needing rescue to fulfill any demand...so how about we jump on the bandwagon to make a healthier Doberman. Not one that prances well around the ring...one that lives a long, healthy life.

It's about time!
 

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My vWD carrier dog is out of a non-clinically affected bitch, bred to a clear. This was his breeder's first Doberman litter. His fully-health tested, Canadian Champion littermate sister (also a carrier) produced a lovely red boy last year, who just earned his Canadian Championship at 3 weeks shy of 11 months of age, with a Best Puppy in Show; and guess what? He's vWD CLEAR! Two generations. Please explain to us how this could possibly be worse than the damage being done to our breed by BYB's. Please, please explain.
 

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I think you're the only one who wants a fight (by the title)....most others are just happy to discuss....but at least it's much more appropriate in its own thread. Thanks for respecting the other thread.
Carry on....
knock yourself out...
 
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Because a 'person' is smart and 'people' are idiots, having near about anything under the control and supervision of humans will never produce a fully perfect specimen. No point in getting angry about it, here you are preaching to the choir.

In nature, in quite a few species, the genetic tendencies of male and female copulation are for the best males being bred to the females. Some species will fight each other for dominance, asserting the better male won the right to mate, thus passing on the genetics of the best there is to offer. Some do funky dances, some bring gifts, etc., etc.

In the case of the domestic dog, humans are unfortunately and fortunately in control. There are good people out there and not so good people out there. This is because those humans who really, really, really shouldn't be reproducing do anyhow. No offense to anyone, but the truth can sometimes hurt.

Exponentially expand on those cases that shouldn't be reproducing and you have the side of humans who don't care about things such as health and well being and longevity of life...who maybe smoke during pregnancy, or use meth or heroin, etc.

Fix the human species, which is in control of the domesticated animal, and you can fix the domesticated animal. Until then, dry your eyes.

And did you write 'pry' on purpose? As in probably? Just making sure I was understanding that correctly.
 

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I want to reiterate that just because a dog is genetically vWD affected, this does NOT mean they are clinically affected. vWD affected dogs just need a few precautions before having any major operations, such as a preliminary test to gauge the clotting factor and also a blood donor or plasma on hand in case its needed.

I would much rather a puppy from fully health tested parents, even if the dam is affected and the sire is clear, you can always breed your carrier to another clear dog where each puppy will have a 75% chance of being clear in the next generation. If they wanted to, vWD could be cleared up completely in just a handful of generations, but it WOULD narrow the genepool by doing this so quickly. vWD is small fish compared to the Three C's: Cancer, Cardio, CVI.

Also remember that maybe that Affected bitch/dog in the litter is the best specimen? Why would you spay/neuter your PICK of the litter over a manageable condition that can be bred away from in the future? You are lucky to have one or two show prospect puppies in a litter, what if both of those puppies out of a litter of 12 were affected and the rest with structural faults were clear/carrier. What would you do then? It JUST ISN'T FEASIBLE to eradicate vWD in two or three generations. Breeding away from it over time is the only option to maintain genetic diversity, which is one of the keys, imho to slowing the rate of DCM infecting the breed.
 

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vWD is small fish compared to the Three C's: Cancer, Cardio, CVI.
Four C's... you left out CAH.

I have owned a vWD affected dog who had no problems until he had a great big problem. I would not choose to own another affected dog, and I wouldn't necessarily call vWD a small fish. But, a litter of carrier puppies is no reason to have a lynching party. This whole thing is a tempest in a teapot.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Clarification

I think you miss understand I did not say that the byb was not hurting the breed I was just saying that if someone on here found out a byb was breeding an affected Bitch they would be mince meat. But it is okay for this breeder.


Clarification Question I am glad that your young man is vWD clear but how long ago was the Affected breeding? And how many of his siblings were bred and carried on the carrier gene (I'm gonna guess just as many if not more) I might be wrong please tell me if I am. Also I understand that some of the dogs being bred are fine examples of the breed today but what if we could have a better healthier breed tomorrow by putting health on par with looks and agility today :)

If I am wrong and the other dogs from that original litter did not go on to become breeding stock that produced a majority of carrier puppies then the program you have described is what all breeders should try to do. The problem seems to be that people keep back tracking and starting over see what I mean?

:huepfenicon111:
 

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I was just saying that if someone on here found out a byb was breeding an affected Bitch they would be mince meat. But it is okay for this breeder.

They would be mince meat because they are a BYB. They would be mince meat because they are not testing for the myraid of other far more serious health conditions that afflict this breed. They would be mince meat for not placing their puppies on spay/neuter contracts. They would be mince meat for not taking back puppies when they are no longer wanted. They would be mince meat for breeding conformationally incorrect dogs. They would be mince meat for breeding albinos.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
<yawn> You made your feelings quite clear elsewhere. Do you think that giant fonts in technicolor somehow make your point more persuasive? Your breeders both sound like idiots.
I was respectful to the request to move my opinion else where if you don't have something constructive to add to the convo don't post here :kiss: the location I'll leave to your imagination.

Also my breeders have produced plenty of titled dogs and good pets as well so I don't think they are idiots for being passionate about something we could feasibly fix. Carido is one of those things that is not completely genetic (if it was we could likely of figured it out by now) a lot is life style and environment
so wanting to fix something we totally understand is reasonable.
 

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I was respectful to the request to move my opinion else where if you don't have something constructive to add to the convo don't post here :kiss: the location I'll leave to your imagination.

Also my breeders have produced plenty of titled dogs and good pets as well so I don't think they are idiots for being passionate about something we could feasibly fix. Carido is one of those things that is not completely genetic (if it was we could likely of figured it out by now) a lot is life style and environment
so wanting to fix something we totally understand is reasonable.
Dare I hope that you would say who your breeders are? The ONLY websites I see which make a big, fat, hairy deal about having only vWD clear are BYB and large volume commercial breeders (and often albino producers)... and, that's only because that's all they have to brag about. If your breeders have produced plenty of titled dogs... who are they?

I simply do not know any knowledgable breeders who would get all het up about breeding a carrier litter... there is no reason to.

As for your statements about cardio... insofar as I am aware, there is NO science to support anything you have said. What lifestyle and/or environmental factors have been linked in any way to the development of DCM in Dobermans? To say that if it was solely genetic, we would have figured it out by now is preposterous.
 

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I want to reiterate that just because a dog is genetically vWD affected, this does NOT mean they are clinically affected. vWD affected dogs just need a few precautions before having any major operations, such as a preliminary test to gauge the clotting factor and also a blood donor or plasma on hand in case its needed.

I would much rather a puppy from fully health tested parents, even if the dam is affected and the sire is clear, you can always breed your carrier to another clear dog where each puppy will have a 75% chance of being clear in the next generation. If they wanted to, vWD could be cleared up completely in just a handful of generations, but it WOULD narrow the genepool by doing this so quickly. vWD is small fish compared to the Three C's: Cancer, Cardio, CVI.

Also remember that maybe that Affected bitch/dog in the litter is the best specimen? Why would you spay/neuter your PICK of the litter over a manageable condition that can be bred away from in the future? You are lucky to have one or two show prospect puppies in a litter, what if both of those puppies out of a litter of 12 were affected and the rest with structural faults were clear/carrier. What would you do then? It JUST ISN'T FEASIBLE to eradicate vWD in two or three generations. Breeding away from it over time is the only option to maintain genetic diversity, which is one of the keys, imho to slowing the rate of DCM infecting the breed.
I bolded two parts here, that are SO. ON. POINT. YES! If breeders started only breeding dogs that were vWD clear to other clears, the gene pool would be significantly smaller, which as we all know, creates even more horrible health problems.
Kat, you should do some research on how important genetic diversity is to the breed, and how detrimental it would be to the breed to only breed clears to clears (at this point in time, that is- the eventual goal of course, is to get rid of the disease.) I also recommend watching the videos of Dr. Meurs presentation about DCM (does someone have the link for our enthusiastic poster?)- I think it will truly help you better understand genetics, and ethical breeding practices.


For the record, I have no idea what situation/breeder Kat is talking about here. Must have missed that one. And no one is going to ban you for being passionate about the breed- but we will try to give you as much information as possible, so that you can better understand what you are talking about. Believe me, you are not the only person on this forum who wants these diseases to go away.
 

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Okay I now know what the situation is, and as it's too late to edit my post, here it goes.
I was MUCH too nice in my previous post. I can't believe you are raising h*** about a litter that did not produce any affected pups. Do you actually know anything about genetics? Some of these pups will probably be pets, therefore speutered, and the ones that will be bred can easily be bred to clear dogs, therefore not producing any affected pups. (I still don't know this breeder from Adam, BTW)

I cannot believe I finally got tricked by a troll....I almost made it a year and a half. :(
 

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I cannot believe I finally got tricked by a troll....I almost made it a year and a half. :(
LOL! I almost sent you a private message congratulating you on being a nicer person than I.

Unless you know something I don't, I am not sure this person is a troll. Young, abrasive, ignorant, arrogant... yes. Not a clue that she doesn't have a clue... bargain basement price for show dogs, being shown OFA paperwork on KNEES, starting a poll to ask if her dog's hind legs are too short, no idea what a croup is, but she really wants to breed her dog if he's conformationally correct (and, I assume, vWD clear <G>) and blah blah blah. I went back and read everything she's posted, and I am pretty sure I am done with this... no point, "pry."

I wasn't kidding about the only breeders who are all up in arms about vWD status... solely the province of the less than stellar commercial crowd. She'll figure it out eventually... or, not.
 

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I bolded two parts here, that are SO. ON. POINT. YES! If breeders started only breeding dogs that were vWD clear to other clears, the gene pool would be significantly smaller, which as we all know, creates even more horrible health problems.
Kat, you should do some research on how important genetic diversity is to the breed, and how detrimental it would be to the breed to only breed clears to clears (at this point in time, that is- the eventual goal of course, is to get rid of the disease.) I also recommend watching the videos of Dr. Meurs presentation about DCM (does someone have the link for our enthusiastic poster?)- I think it will truly help you better understand genetics, and ethical breeding practices.


For the record, I have no idea what situation/breeder Kat is talking about here. Must have missed that one. And no one is going to ban you for being passionate about the breed- but we will try to give you as much information as possible, so that you can better understand what you are talking about. Believe me, you are not the only person on this forum who wants these diseases to go away.
The DCM presentation video is archived here:

DPCA's Videos on USTREAM. Page 1 of 1 : Recorded videos, shows captured LIVE
 

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not a troll... its just suffering FITH syndrome.

I applaud all of you for being so patient with people that don't listen.. I really shouldn't of come into a thread with this title.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
:trafficwarden:

I give up. here is my final piece
There are lots of dogs that are titled that are not affected (also the sight never sates if she is only non clinically affected. Just affected) and at this point we have the testing the idea is to slightly limit the gene pool however a carrier pup from the same litter has the same dna as the clear pup in the litter. I have read a few studies on dogs in general not just dobermans that show higher instances of heart disease in dogs that live with smokers and in areas with higher pollution (city vs country). I am tired I will not troll I'll leave this up tonight pm me if you actually wanna talk about it if not be happy when I ask for it to be removed when I get up tomorrow i am not a troll and will not continue to have people upset about this weather I am right or not. I shouldn't have posted had a bad day and wanted to vent hope everyone has a good night. or day or what ever (time zones....)

:emo11:
 

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I'm not willing to give myself wrinkles over a thread like this.

All I'll say is this: In any case, comparing BYBs to reputable breeders - no matter what the comparison is - is just absolutely stupid. Like comparing apples to oranges as the saying goes.

THAT is where I believe the OP is confused.
BYBs are going to get slammed on this site no matter what - as they should be.
 
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