[monicaei]

NA versus Euro...

Not the "big stocky build" debate, but drive/personality. Those who have experienced both, is the difference that distinct?

Not just hard working Euro vs NA of similar stock... But living with, working in non bite sports? "normal peoples dogs". CGC, agility for fun, that dog. Is there no such dobe in Europe?

 

[Cathy43]

Of the 3 dogs I have trained in agility, the 2 Euros have been much more enthusiastic about training than dear , sweet Pullo was. Not that he didn't have his moments. They just seem more willing to please or at least work with you towards getting that reward. Everything they did was/is quick. Quick thinking, quick reactions. If all I wanted was a pet, I wouldn't want so much dog. That said, energy requirements met, mine go to bed right after supper.

I know there are NA dogs that are the same but the percentage is smaller, much smaller IMHO. We don't deny that a pedigree full of Ch's usually produces a better looking than average dog. So why deny that a pedigree full of Sch titles produces a drivier than average dog?

 

[monicaei]

Do you find that "drive" is more enthusiasm for a task or is it easier to train this type of dog, ie defining the task?

 

[Cathy43]

Both. Sorry I can't explain it better. Maybe you should try one next time you are in the market for a dog. I don't know if a person who just does "pet" things would notice a difference but for performance stuff, I have noticed a diff.

 

[adhahn]

Since this is a Dobermann forum, perhaps a less emotionally charged way of examining the issue would be to discuss the differences in another breed.

Take the German Shepherd Dog as an example. With very, very few (statistically irrelevant) exceptions, GSD's in police work are “European” dogs. Meaning, that even if they were bred here in America, they come from pedigrees or breeding programs that use European style temperament testing.

It's not just about bitework either. There are plenty of single purpose detector dogs. Some of those dogs don't have what it takes to do Patrol, others were simply acquired as single purpose dogs and never trained in patrol. But again, the dogs that do not come from pedigrees and breeding programs that included European style temperament testing are so few as to be statistically irrelevant. This isn't some sort of anti-American prejudice. It's just a fact that you seldom find dogs with a work ethic coming from breeders who don't temperament test their breeding stock

Bottom line is that if you want to have the best odds for reproducing athleticism, nosework, confidence, stability, “Drive” and so forth, you MUST test for it in your breeding program. Then you must breed the dogs that actually pass on their traits and eliminate from your breeding program the dogs who don't pass on their traits. The most successful breeders seem to almost have a magical ability to match up dogs, but the only way to verify the results is to test, test, test.

It's not about what country (or continent) a dog comes from. It's not about 'show' or 'work'. It's not about how the dog looks. It's not even about where the dogs in the pedigree come from. What it is about is breeders making an effort to reproduce a certain temperament.

The only way to to evaluate your breeding stock is through honest testing. The work ethic can be secondary to looks, or it can be primary to looks, but when temperament testing is a key part of the breeding program the resulting dogs will be different from those where temperament isn't tested.

In the German Shepherd Dog world, there is a vast work ethic difference between dogs from tested pedigrees (“European”) and untested pedigrees (“American”). That work ethic difference extends far beyond just “bitework”.

 

[ssgharkness020147]

Well said.

Since this is a Dobermann forum, perhaps a less emotionally charged way of examining the issue would be to discuss the differences in another breed.

Take the German Shepherd Dog as an example. With very, very few (statistically irrelevant) exceptions, GSD's in police work are “European” dogs. Meaning, that even if they were bred here in America, they come from pedigrees or breeding programs that use European style temperament testing.

It's not just about bitework either. There are plenty of single purpose detector dogs. Some of those dogs don't have what it takes to do Patrol, others were simply acquired as single purpose dogs and never trained in patrol. But again, the dogs that do not come from pedigrees and breeding programs that included European style temperament testing are so few as to be statistically irrelevant. This isn't some sort of anti-American prejudice. It's just a fact that you seldom find dogs with a work ethic coming from breeders who don't temperament test their breeding stock

Bottom line is that if you want to have the best odds for reproducing athleticism, nosework, confidence, stability, “Drive” and so forth, you MUST test for it in your breeding program. Then you must breed the dogs that actually pass on their traits and eliminate from your breeding program the dogs who don't pass on their traits. The most successful breeders seem to almost have a magical ability to match up dogs, but the only way to verify the results is to test, test, test.

It's not about what country (or continent) a dog comes from. It's not about 'show' or 'work'. It's not about how the dog looks. It's not even about where the dogs in the pedigree come from. What it is about is breeders making an effort to reproduce a certain temperament.

The only way to to evaluate your breeding stock is through honest testing. The work ethic can be secondary to looks, or it can be primary to looks, but when temperament testing is a key part of the breeding program the resulting dogs will be different from those where temperament isn't tested.

In the German Shepherd Dog world, there is a vast work ethic difference between dogs from tested pedigrees (“European”) and untested pedigrees (“American”). That work ethic difference extends far beyond just “bitework”.

 

[Pompuschk]

European Dobermans make great pets because they have a lot of pet drive. NA have a lot of pet drive too, maybe more, because they have been bred to be pets. Just think about it, if you breed your dogs to be pets they'll probably excell at it. I think pet drive is passed on from generation to generation, but if its not tested for, you will lose it.

My dogs like cookies, but only my super high drive working euro dobe will do tricks for cookies. My low drive american show dobe will just stare at the cookie, still as a statue, with a vacant expression.

My euro dobe pants a lot. I think its because his underjaw is so big that its to heavy to hold closed.

:idea:

 

[Asmit]

 

[VZ-Doberman]

European Dobermans make great pets because they have a lot of pet drive. NA have a lot of pet drive too, maybe more, because they have been bred to be pets. Just think about it, if you breed your dogs to be pets they'll probably excell at it. I think pet drive is passed on from generation to generation, but if its not tested for, you will lose it.

My dogs like cookies, but only my super high drive working euro dobe will do tricks for cookies. My low drive american show dobe will just stare at the cookie, still as a statue, with a vacant expression.

My euro dobe pants a lot. I think its because his underjaw is so big that its to heavy to hold closed.

:idea:

WHAT??? :roflmao:

 

[mangujowa]

European Dobermans make great pets because they have a lot of pet drive. NA have a lot of pet drive too, maybe more, because they have been bred to be pets. Just think about it, if you breed your dogs to be pets they'll probably excell at it. I think pet drive is passed on from generation to generation, but if its not tested for, you will lose it.

My dogs like cookies, but only my super high drive working euro dobe will do tricks for cookies. My low drive american show dobe will just stare at the cookie, still as a statue, with a vacant expression.

My euro dobe pants a lot. I think its because his underjaw is so big that its to heavy to hold closed.

:idea:

What is pet drive?! And how do you test for it? The patented can-you-use-the-bathroom-alone-without-your-dobe-trying-to-sit-in-your-lap test?

Tell my NA BYB boy that he's not supposed to wanna do stuff.... little bugger keeps pestering me at the end agility when he's completely pooped and panting because he wants to keep going and wants me to give him something else to do.

 

[monicaei]

What is pet drive?! And how do you test for it? The patented can-you-use-the-bathroom-alone-without-your-dobe-trying-to-sit-in-your-lap test? .

My guys have their POTTY1 working pet titles. No human on their watch shall ever potty alone!

 

[Rosamburg]

European Dobermans make great pets because they have a lot of pet drive. NA have a lot of pet drive too, maybe more, because they have been bred to be pets. Just think about it, if you breed your dogs to be pets they'll probably excell at it. I think pet drive is passed on from generation to generation, but if its not tested for, you will lose it.

My dogs like cookies, but only my super high drive working euro dobe will do tricks for cookies. My low drive american show dobe will just stare at the cookie, still as a statue, with a vacant expression.

My euro dobe pants a lot. I think its because his underjaw is so big that its to heavy to hold closed.

:idea:

Too funny!

 

[Australdi]

My experience based upon owning a working line (predominatly euro) and a show line (predominatly NA/Aust) dobe (so take that unreliable small sample size for what it is) is not so much a difference in drives, but more in nerve and aloofness : The euro breeding being sounder and more self contained/aloof and therefore more able to focus its drive to a job and not back down or "needy" of my attention. ...but my sample is also skewed by my SL dobe being a rescue...so who really knows. My working line dog was more inclined to independant activity and required a lot of exercise to burn off his energy and need to work....where as Zil was more frenetic and needing my interaction, but not necessarily needing the long runs that Daims did...and play was Zil's preference, whereas Daims would rather blow off play and work/run instead. Both were equally high in prey drive...but Daims had a much more balanced off switch and didn't get stressed when called off. Zil on the other hand would shiver and whine and was almost impossible to re-direct. Daims as an adult was bombproof...Zil reactive.

How much was attributable to nature/nurture....who knows? ...but one would assume that linebreeding on working lines contributed a fair degree to Daims' personality and some of his traits could be traced back through his pedigree to specific dogs, with noting how the combination of other prominent attributes from his secondary line balanced out some of the sharpness of the other lines...and vice versa. Zil's pedigree (and personality) was a bit too scattered to attribute much to his pedigree (apart from the high prey drive & perhaps looks). Zil was a much more cuddly and social dog...but Daims, whilst less social, was far more reliable and balanced in social situations.

 

[Rowdy1224]

My guys have their POTTY1 working pet titles. No human on their watch shall ever potty alone!

Funny. Why is that? I'ts like every time you enter a bathroom it means everyone else has to pile in there and see what your doing???

 

[Toby'shuman]

Funny. Why is that? I'ts like every time you enter a bathroom it means everyone else has to pile in there and see what your doing???

Because they can, that is why. And because without supervision the toilet monster might rise up from the pan and grab you and take you away.

It really is simple logic, if you are a dog that is.

 

[Toby'shuman]

I have no experience with North American Dobes, so I cannot comment on how they differ. I do have experience with my own Dobe and he is European through and through. He is forever on the go, forever wanting to learn, forever wanting to please but has an aloofness wherein if he feels that way inclined you don't rate too high on his needs list. I guess no end of NA Dobe owners are saying that is exactly how my boy/girl is so maybe it isnt anything special.
I do know that the Dobes I have seen here in Spain, and indeed a good percentage of those I saw in Holland and Germany are somewhat nervous so I do not know if this differentiates them from their American cousins.

I just know I love my boy. :heartforyou: