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Maybe some of you show folks can help me...

When the judge is looking at a dog - does he/she know the dog's pedigree?

I just wonder what type of politics come into play. Let's just say a HoH dog came up against a Cambria dog in the ring and both were equal in all aspects (keep your laughter to a minimum, this is hypothetical). Would/could the judge award the Cambria dog the ribbon over the Hoytt dog simply because the breeders reputations are so different? Or even a dog from a small, new but good breeder against one of the better known kennels that has the time and $$$ to really campaign their dogs and kennels.
 

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TracyJo said:
Maybe some of you show folks can help me...

When the judge is looking at a dog - does he/she know the dog's pedigree?

I just wonder what type of politics come into play. Let's just say a HoH dog came up against a Cambria dog in the ring and both were equal in all aspects (keep your laughter to a minimum, this is hypothetical). Would/could the judge award the Cambria dog the ribbon over the Hoytt dog simply because the breeders reputations are so different? Or even a dog from a small, new but good breeder against one of the better known kennels that has the time and $$$ to really campaign their dogs and kennels.
The judge doesn't see the catalog until after they're through judging for the day..so they don't really even know the names of the dogs in the regular classes, let alone know what their pedigree is for sure.

And to answer your last question..my first champion was produced by a very "small" but good breeder, who also handled her (not a "face" pro handler) to 11 of the 15 points needed for her championship. The dog was never heavily campaigned, and she finished fairly easily at 2 years of age. Good dogs get acknowledged, no matter who breeds them

I'd never say politics don't exist in the show ring, but you're most likely to see them at the BOB/Group/BIS level than you are in the classes used to earn a championship. Judges DO know who the Specials are through advertising, and that can make a difference at that level of competition..but this is a game few people who show ever play, it's like a whole different dog show.
 

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Murrydobe is right (she has been at it much longer than I). There is definately politics in the show ring and out side it too........not always but some. However, if it is a good judge they are looking for the best dog presented well no matter who the handler is. Breeders who handle their own dogs and owner handlers who are not a "face" learn which judges will give their dogs a fair shake and that is who they show to. Novices like me show to whomever and learn which ones not to go back to..... or we get really smart and hire a pro to do it for us!
 

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velmadobe said:
Breeders who handle their own dogs and owner handlers who are not a "face" learn which judges will give their dogs a fair shake and that is who they show to. Novices like me show to whomever and learn which ones not to go back to..... or we get really smart and hire a pro to do it for us!
While I agree with what you say here, Mary Jo, I do have to throw in one other thought about novice owner handlers. Many, many times they think their dog lost because of "politics", when politics had nothing to do with it. It's far more likely either they haven't learned to present their dog with any degree of competence yet, or the dog truly isn't competitive, or sometimes both.

Also, most people try to show their dogs much too soon, long before they're physically or mentally ready to be competitive.

Murrey wasn't a great dog (although she produced a great one), but she was a very good dog, and she was very showy. Her breeder is...competent at handling. She was always competitive from her first show at 6 months-undefeated in the puppy classes, a consistent class winner in BBE, with multiple reserves as well. When she was old enough to be "ready", she started earning points. This was without any judicious judge selection-we just entered under whomever was judging in our area. So I always have to come back to "good dogs get acknowledged", but will say that "presented well" also has to be part of the equation.

There's far more incompetence in judging than there is outright politics at the class level.
 

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[ Or even a dog from a small, new but good breeder against one of the better known kennels that has the time and $$$ to really campaign their dogs and kennels.[/quote]

The book that the judge marks only has the armband #'s in it by class - nothing more about the dog so unless he/she recognizes the handler they shouldn't know which dog is which. It's really doubtful any judge keeps too much track of who shows what dog below the specials level.

Cyrus' breeder has only had one litter, so there's only 5 dogs with his kennel name, all his siblings. While I did have a handler, I didn't use a "big" name handler, more of a regional handler. Cyrus finished from the puppy classes in 20 shows and it probably would have been less but he had pano at 7 months and moved a bit odd for 5 weeks or so. Add that to the fact that I'm a nobody in the show world and you have to figure that the judges were looking at the dog, not the owner, breeder or handler. Because my handler wasn't a "big" name, finishing Cy cost $1,000 for those 20 shows, plus whatever the entries cost and travel expenses for me (I never sent him with the handler).

That being said, I have seen a lot of novices try to show their own dogs, get discouraged and blame politics rather than admit to themselves that maybe their dog wasn't that great, or they didn't present it very well. Handling dobes truly is an art - the only other breed that I think compares to the way dobes are shown might be boxers.
 

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Blackdog said:
[ Or even a dog from a small, new but good breeder against one of the better known kennels that has the time and $$$ to really campaign their dogs and kennels.

Cyrus' breeder has only had one litter, so there's only 5 dogs with his kennel name, all his siblings. While I did have a handler, I didn't use a "big" name handler, more of a regional handler. Cyrus finished from the puppy classes in 20 shows and it probably would have been less but he had pano at 7 months and moved a bit odd for 5 weeks or so. Add that to the fact that I'm a nobody in the show world and you have to figure that the judges were looking at the dog, not the owner, breeder or handler. Because my handler wasn't a "big" name, finishing Cy cost $1,000 for those 20 shows, plus whatever the entries cost and travel expenses for me (I never sent him with the handler).

That being said, I have seen a lot of novices try to show their own dogs, get discouraged and blame politics rather than admit to themselves that maybe their dog wasn't that great, or they didn't present it very well. Handling dobes truly is an art - the only other breed that I think compares to the way dobes are shown might be boxers.
I agree on novices showing in the Doberman ring and getting discouraged. It is such a competitive ring and the quality of both the dogs in it and the handling ability is pretty amazing. I figured that all rings were like that until I started watching some of the other breeds - what an eye opener!! I'd love to become competent enough to go in the ring and do a decent job. Maybe someday.......hopefully before I'm ready for a walker! Politics do play a role - it really depends on the judge and the handler - As to what percentage it plays, I just have not been around long enough to have a good opinion on that.

I also don't think that a dog needs to be from a big name breeder to be good. There are lots of hobby breeders out there that may only produce a litter or two in their lifetime. If the quality that they work with is wonderful then those puppies have as good a chance to make it in the ring as any other well bred dog. I hope to breed a litter someday and I know I will never do it on a large recognizable name scale. That does not mean that they will be of less quality.

I also try to keep my expenses down but I've found that the reality is that a really good handler will hopefully finish my bitch faster than a novice would - so the cost may end up being the same. .... I hope (at least that is my theory -we will see). I just sent Louise off with her new handler today - it is the first time I have sent a dog out without me. I know that to go to a multiple day show that is not local really adds up. I figure a minimum of $200/day by the time I pay handlers fees/gas/hotel/food/tolls..... and that is when I go myself and just hand her off at the ring.
 
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