Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm considering starting schutzhund with Calvin next month. I think he might enjoy it and perhaps be successful at it. My question is, what residual effects does schutzhund training have on a dog's personality/temperament.

Calvin, especially if we are outside of the house, loves people and is very friendly. Will this change at all?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
I'm interested to see all the replies. I'm picking up my puppy on the 23rd, but was thinking about Shutzhund's for the future if I think it will be a good fit. I'm sure you'll get some great input in no time!!! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,056 Posts
Schutzhund training will not change you dog's basic temperament at all. There should be no down side as long as you use positive motivation techniques, have a good helper and training mentor that does not pressure the dog too soon or beyond what he is capable of dealing with, and do not force the dog to do something he does not have the basic character to enjoy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,026 Posts
My friends Malinois is French Ring trained, (same as Shutzhund basically), as she pointed out it takes a specific kind of dog to do this kind of work, my Dobe is not suited, not that I am bothered. Her dog is completely devoted to protection and never switches off, perhaps that is him and him alone, but I have met few dogs within the club she belongs to that are one minute friendly loveable family pets and next Personal Protection dogs. So in my personal opinion I think it must change them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
225 Posts
You should PM a person on DT named Donnie. He taught me a lot about the topic and basically told me that it does not at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
609 Posts
Schutzhund training will not change you dog's basic temperament at all. There should be no down side as long as you use positive motivation techniques, have a good helper and training mentor that does not pressure the dog too soon or beyond what he is capable of dealing with, and do not force the dog to do something he does not have the basic character to enjoy.
I think their is more good advice in this post than many will even realize. That is until they get their dog on a field and start working in the sport. Especially if you have a dog who is not from a strong working pedigree. I have to evaluate this with my own dog often. He is not from working lines, but thus far enjoys what we are doing. He is far from being even close to what a well bred working dog would be at the same age. However he is learning and enjoying himself. As I am also learning and enjoying working with him. Point being is at some point I know the work will require more pressure than I feel he can handle being under. At that point we will do it at whatever level he enjoys but the progression of training will stop. I however will continue in the sport in training and helper work, but I will not drag a dog along who does not enjoy what he is doing.
 

·
We Serve the Doberman
Joined
·
900 Posts
I am a newbie at this SCH stuff, too. But have always been fascinated by it. I had Dexter evaluated by a trainer for it and he said to just forget it. Dexter didn't come from a working line of Dobes, and he was not at all interested in the process. Goading him into would have been cruel and unproductive.

So we ordered Khaleesi as a pup from a working line of dobes. Both sire and dam well trained in SCH (sire is titled, dam is now closing in on her title). I met both dogs, and found them to be loving, friendly (tho the dam was more suspicious than the big Euro champ dad!).

We've been going to Appalachian K9 (Sandy Pope in Maynardville TN) with Khaleesi & one of the first things she did was "tease" her with a chamois on a pole & see her reaction. Totally opposite of Dexter, she pounced, growled, & shook till she "killed" it. Her tracking and other training confirms, she was bred for this. I really see the difference in temperament; Khaleesi is always more guarded/suspicious with strangers, Dex licks everyones to death.

Next week, we start the bite work (Khaleesi is done teething finally). Sandy mode: really trains in the "positive", "watch me" "yessss...." "uh uh...no ma'am". This is such a contrast to the "Alpha" method I learned 20 some years ago with my Cattle Dog, Shelty, & even with Loki, my first dobe.

I don't see how SCH would make a difference in temperament if you used that positive training method AND the dog is from a quality working line. Trying to make Dexter do that would have been disastrous & would've changed his personality.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
A friend of mine has a Malinois bitch that she does Schutzhund with. When her dog isn't actually working, she is a big mush. The type of dog that can't hold herself up if you are petting her because she melts into you. My friend also runs a dog daycare, she her dog is exposed to a lot of people on a daily basis and is rock solid. Once you get her on a sleeve though she is ALL business.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,069 Posts
I found it gave Jasmine a lot of self confidence.

I find Cash is a big ***** cat at home, bring him to training and he becomes a tiger on the field!

We work on temperament stuff at the club, walking around people, gunshot, and working in close quarters. If anything it makes them well rounded dogs, better able to handle things out in the real world IMO.

Won't let me say the word *****..lol! kitty cat..haha!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
I have a 8 month old from a strong working line. He is already a fierce protector of me, but is very friendly with everyone else. No worries, I let him greet everyone who comes to the house, but I am sure that everyone of a more passing acquintance knows he is protection trained, so they don't try any horse play, ie slaping me on the back. He is the love of my life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,069 Posts
I have a 8 month old from a strong working line. He is already a fierce protector of me, but is very friendly with everyone else. No worries, I let him greet everyone who comes to the house, but I am sure that everyone of a more passing acquintance knows he is protection trained, so they don't try any horse play, ie slaping me on the back. He is the love of my life.
Really at 8 months old he is already protecting you? He is just a puppy still . :(

Keep in mind the OP will be doing sport not actual protection training for real life scenario's.
 

·
Aggressive Female
Joined
·
3,720 Posts
some dogs naturally have an on and off switch- and some don't. Elsa is aggressive on the field, but generally sweet and nice off the field. she is neutral to strangers, but not aggressive.

I think it's better to teach a dog when it is okay to bite then not to teach them at all, especially when they are a sharp dog.

if he's a sweet and social dog now and is older, training will most likely not change his temperament outside the working environment.

here's a video of Elsa working and not working:
5AYiUdbJHGU

My friends Malinois is French Ring trained, (same as Shutzhund basically). .
two totally different sports! not the same at ALL! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
I found it gave Jasmine a lot of self confidence.

I find Cash is a big ***** cat at home, bring him to training and he becomes a tiger on the field!

We work on temperament stuff at the club, walking around people, gunshot, and working in close quarters. If anything it makes them well rounded dogs, better able to handle things out in the real world IMO.
Agree 100%, same with my girl, one of the reasons I proceeded with IPO (now THIS is similar/almost the same as sch, not french ring;)) is to make her more stable, and confident, and the progress is really visible. Unfortunately she is not gunshot proof, one big big fault of hers, so we will see how far we'll go. She is loving it though and gets really aggressive on the field. No problems whatsoever in real life.

And at home... She sleeps 90% of the time. Right now, next to me curled up in my bed lol. Some dogs are like this, they can switch the working mode on/off, and some can't. It all depends on the dog.

Fitz.kara, nice video!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,069 Posts
Agree 100%, same with my girl, one of the reasons I proceeded with IPO (now THIS is similar/almost the same as sch, not french ring;)) is to make her more stable, and confident, and the progress is really visible. Unfortunately she is not gunshot proof, one big big fault of hers, so we will see how far we'll go. She is loving it though and gets really aggressive on the field. No problems whatsoever in real life.

And at home... She sleeps 90% of the time. Right now, next to me curled up in my bed lol. Some dogs are like this, they can switch the working mode on/off, and some can't. It all depends on the dog.

Fitz.kara, nice video!
Yes Jasmine also had problems with the gun shot and was not stable enough for bite work. But she still loved it, and it did help with confidence building. But so did the obedience.

Here it will also be IPO as of January due to rule changes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GrdnDelite

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,026 Posts
Really, I was told by the K9 guys in Barcalona, Spain that Shutzhund and French Ring were basically the same but of course I guess it depends on how you perceive it, they both encourage a dog to bite at a sleeve, sometimes the whole suit. I accept that there are many dogs who switch off, but in the case of my friends Malinois he doesnt, neither does her bitch, yet her Boxer does, however, the Malinois are both from serious working lines, so perhaps that is the difference.
I think if you try do any kind of Protection training with a dog with the wrong temprement then it will affect them. My Toby is totally not suited, I accept that, he is too nervous and would not enjoy the sport but would do it through fear, (not of me by the way). However, he is showing himself to be very suited to tracking so this is the avenue I am considering pursuing.
I admire any dog that can do Shutzhund and French Ring with enthusiasm and yet remain a loving family pet, I also admire the handlers who can effect such a powerful response from their dogs in a controlled manner.
But some folk and dogs are just plain wrong for this sport and it becomes an issue that is often hard to reconcile. No offence meant to anyone, this is just my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,069 Posts
Really, I was told by the K9 guys in Barcalona, Spain that Shutzhund and French Ring were basically the same but of course I guess it depends on how you perceive it, they both encourage a dog to bite at a sleeve, sometimes the whole suit. I accept that there are many dogs who switch off, but in the case of my friends Malinois he doesnt, neither does her bitch, yet her Boxer does, however, the Malinois are both from serious working lines, so perhaps that is the difference.
I think if you try do any kind of Protection training with a dog with the wrong temprement then it will affect them. My Toby is totally not suited, I accept that, he is too nervous and would not enjoy the sport but would do it through fear, (not of me by the way). However, he is showing himself to be very suited to tracking so this is the avenue I am considering pursuing.
I admire any dog that can do Shutzhund and French Ring with enthusiasm and yet remain a loving family pet, I also admire the handlers who can effect such a powerful response from their dogs in a controlled manner.
But some folk and dogs are just plain wrong for this sport and it becomes an issue that is often hard to reconcile. No offence meant to anyone, this is just my opinion.
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN FRENCH RING AND SCHUTZHUND
 
  • Like
Reactions: lemon

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,731 Posts
I don't think it would change a dogs temperament. just like people who train martial arts or boxing. Although I do not know a whole lot about the sport it seems from what I have seen and read that to the dogs it is a game. Just like agility is a game. Some dogs love it some don't. There. Is a Malinois in my agility class that is bite trained and she is the sweetest creature ever. I would have never known if her owner didn't tell me. To me the beauty of watching sch is the obedience and control. I remember watching Eva at a trail and was so impressed with her ob routine (and ther rest of her work) And yes the bite work is very fun to watch and is always impressive especially with a well trained dog. I think people forget there are 3 components to the sport. It isn't all about the protection part. If the dog has a solid temperament I don't think training will change it.

On a side note. Vader was evaluated and they said he could do well. I evaluated my crazy life and determined that I didn't have the time necessary to devote to training all 3 parts. So we went the agility route. And we love it.

Hope this make sense - haven't finished my coffee yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,069 Posts
I don't think it would change a dogs temperament. just like people who train martial arts or boxing. Although I do not know a whole lot about the sport it seems from what I have seen and read that to the dogs it is a game. Just like agility is a game. Some dogs love it some don't. There. Is a Malinois in my agility class that is bite trained and she is the sweetest creature ever. I would have never known if her owner didn't tell me. To me the beauty of watching sch is the obedience and control. I remember watching Eva at a trail and was so impressed with her ob routine (and ther rest of her work) And yes the bite work is very fun to watch and is always impressive especially with a well trained dog. I think people forget there are 3 components to the sport. It isn't all about the protection part. If the dog has a solid temperament I don't think training will change it.

On a side note. Vader was evaluated and they said he could do well. I evaluated my crazy life and determined that I didn't have the time necessary to devote to training all 3 parts. So we went the agility route. And we love it.

Hope this make sense - haven't finished my coffee yet.
The obedience was what attracted me to the sport, and further it was the obedience in the bite work. I remember thinking to myself, how in the world do they get that kind of control?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
Really at 8 months old he is already protecting you? He is just a puppy still . :(

Keep in mind the OP will be doing sport not actual protection training for real life scenario's.
Yes he started Schutzhund at 6 months and already knew advanced obedience. I checked with his breeder before he got Schutzhund training and he said keep it positive which we did. We made it like a game with no pressure. He is a very happy puppy. He needed obedience because he is very high energy and was somewhat of a tornado.He could get his BH but he is not old enough he needs to be 15 months. He is also very smart. He has given advanced obedience demenstrations for the local high school. He has recieved protection training also. If I am walking along and someone jumps out at me in a threatening manner he goes for him, if a bystander wants to come up and talk to me, shake my hand,etc fine, he stands there, if that same person then turns around and grabs me, he goes for him, the reason being I may not be able to tell him the command, if I give him the command he does so. When we go for walks he is always looking out for me. When someone comes by he runs to the door and places himself between the visitor and myself and looks at me like"how do you want me to handle this? Does he get in?" When I say it is OK he is very friendly. I am taking this pup as far as he can go, hopefully Schutzhund level 3. Maybe also in the conformation ring because he is very pretty. He has a LOT of potential but things have not just happened. I have spent a ton of time and money on him and will continue to do so. This type of dog is not for a beginner, he is VERY high energy and needs obedience and a lot of exercise but I adore him.
In case you are wondering about the breeding, he is Cara's Avenging Angel aka Dieter. His father is Eiko
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top