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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was wondering if anyone has any offspring or 2nd generation progeny of Trotyl de Black Shadow in the USA that have competed in Schutzhund that can tell me about the drives your dogs have. Any help or POC's would be greatly appreciated.
 

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I am not sure that this will directly answer your question, but we bred to Trotyl and we are good friends of his owners. I have seen many Trotyl puppies both as small puppies and adults in the US and Europe.

We have a Trotyl daughter from one of our Gino Gomez daughters that has a ton of drive, a very full grip, and loves protection work even though she is only 1/4 European. However, the litter was very mixed in drives and I have seen many Trotyl progeny that seem to have attention and focus issues. I saw 3 of the Trotyl offspring from the Greek litter out of a European bitch (a Fedor del Nasi daughter) at IDC in 2010 and I liked the red bitch a lot in both conformation and temperament. Neither of the males that I saw there had the conformation or drives to compare with the bitch.

I have not seen any 2nd generation offspring doing any work, but I would guess most of the equation would depend on the other 3/4 of the genetics that is not Trotyl than the 1/4 that he contributes. I will also say that there are 2 bitches and a dog either titled or near to titling out of CH Foxfire's All Star who like Trotyl is an Inaqui de Black Shadow son. So, it seems that at least the Inaqui son's do not necessarily take a lot away from the working ability of the bitches that they are bred to, at least in some fo the puppies.
 

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I have a 8 mth old Trotyl daughter, she is a double bred Trotyl grand-daughter on dams side as well. We started in the fall doing some training with our local SDA club with bitework and tracking and she has done very well. We are located in MI though so training has slowed down for the winter but she has tremedous drive and a great bite. Really excited to see how she does when she gets older.
 

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My Rachel is a Trotyl Grandaughter

and she's training in Schutzhund; she has amazing drives. She is my little energizer bunny; if you want to keep going she's there. She is also an amazing show dog; she is up for anything!!

Ch. Boland's Rachel Alexandra, WAC if you want to see her pedigree on Dobequest. She's line bred on Lex Luthor.

I love her temperament; her and her dam are wonderful dogs; tough but great with people. Her brother was also training in french ring.
 

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Trotyl/Thriller Grand daughter

Kyra is a Trotyl/Thriller Grand daughter, Triple Lex Luthor, 1/4 Briarwood/Cambria. She has a TON of drive but as Doug mentioned, sometimes lacks focus. She excels in Dock Jumping, Lure Coursing and Agility but doesn't have the focus for Obedience (she will do it but usually only with food to motivate her and she has that tortured look on her face, like she's bored to death!) She has a lot of crazy energy and like I've seen with many of the linebred SA dogs has issues holding still haha She is constantly gaiting, running, jumping, circling like a shark or dragging me somewhere. :lol2: She's only still when she's sleeping or sucking on a stuffy. :roflmao: She passed her WAE on the first try but other than that I have not done any protection type work with her. Many of the SA line bred dogs seem to have the drive needed but the trick is harnessing that drive/energy and getting them to hold still long enough to focus. :nicejob:
 

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Drive and Energy are two different things

of course;

My girl does not lack focus; and has DRIVE a plenty. I know the difference. Geez..
 

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I have a Trotyl grandson,father is Sunburgs Street Sense. I can't compare him to a working Doberman as I have never worked with one personally. I will say he likes to play, has prey drive, he is a VERY obedient dog. His protection/bite work is where he lacks. We have not started tracking so I can not comment on that. Protection work with him is a game and is fun but he is not a serious dog. He is only interested in getting the sleeve at this point. We will see if anymore aggression/defense come out with some more maturity but I'm not gonna hold my breath. I love they guy none the less, he's a fun dog.

Point being the OP asked if any of his offspring have Competed in the US. Playing around at a club is not competing. I would be curious if any of his offspring have succeeded in a working venue.(i.e., titles) And if they had what the other side of the pedigree looked like.
 

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Some dogs from Euro show lines can have a fair amount of prey drive. It would be pretty rare to see one with much offensive fight drive or aggression however.

The biggest concern with Doberman's is usually nerve. In practical terms this would translate into how well they maintain drive and fight the helper, when confronted with extreme amounts of pressure. With weak dogs you have to find a judge who is not so critical and a trial helper who is willing to be a candy-ass and work the dog completely in prey.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thank you everyone for your input. I have a By-the-sea pup right now, he is by Alfa by the sea and Karma Kaja Del Nasi. He seems to have it all and I absolutely love it. I have a female who is German and Check bred that I was interested in breeding back to a Trotyl son for more conformation. My girl has wonderful prey drive and a bit of defense but she definitely needs more work ethic. I need a male that is not lacking in these areas, so as not to diminish any more drive.

Once again thank you and if anyone gets any titles in any ring sport with trotyl kids or grandkids please let us know the pedigree
.
 

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Maybe message Pearlpower. She took Archie (a trotyl grandson) for an evaluation and the trainer loved him. I don't have the info in front of me but she can tell you.

Archie's one grandmother was a czech import, so there's not just NA lines.
 

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Some dogs from Euro show lines can have a fair amount of prey drive. It would be pretty rare to see one with much offensive fight drive or aggression however.

The biggest concern with Doberman's is usually nerve. In practical terms this would translate into how well they maintain drive and fight the helper, when confronted with extreme amounts of pressure. With weak dogs you have to find a judge who is not so critical and a trial helper who is willing to be a candy-ass and work the dog completely in prey.
I don't agree it is rare to see fight drive in the Euro showlines at all. I've seen plenty, both here and across the pond. I'm not saying this is true for all lines, but then neither is it true for all "working" lines. I think the euro showlines also have pretty thick nerve. In fact, I would say almost too thick in some cases. It can them pretty hard to work with depending on the other temperament traits.
 

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I don't agree it is rare to see fight drive in the Euro showlines at all. I've seen plenty, both here and across the pond. I'm not saying this is true for all lines, but then neither is it true for all "working" lines. I think the euro showlines also have pretty thick nerve. In fact, I would say almost too thick in some cases. It can them pretty hard to work with depending on the other temperament traits.
How do you define offensive fight drive?
 

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I hope this question is relevant to this thread but...I have heard and seen the term "open temperment" . Exactly what does that mean?
 

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I'm curious what exactly offensive fight drive is, but from a different perspective. As a newbie, these topics are really helpful.
It is a long discussion and one that I am not overly qualified to speak on. In a nutshell, it is natural, active aggression.

In Schutzhund it would be demonstrated as the drive that takes the fight to the helper. Most of what you see is prey driven. Most trainers either don't know how to unleash and or harness fight drive, or are afraid to develop it. Most clubs utilize strictly prey to get work out of a dog.

With an exceptionally good dog you can use this (prey driven )approach to take you far. Even with unfavorable circumstances or pressure. However, it diminishes over time. Another aspect of it is that it can result in inconsistency in the work. Fight drive will carry a dog through even if the conditions are unfavorable..excessive heat, fatigue etc. It is extremely rare to find a good balance of fight and prey drive. With a high (thicker ) nerve dog it is more difficult to get a lot of fight drive out of a dog, unless the training is very geared toward it.

With all the fake protection work (dogs barking for balls in the blind, putting puppies on the helper with a sleeve in a play situation, etc.) in a very high percentage of training environments it is very rare to see. Essentially most dogs are only running on half cylinders.
 

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It is a long discussion and one that I am not overly qualified to speak on. In a nutshell, it is natural, active aggression.

In Schutzhund it would be demonstrated as the drive that takes the fight to the helper. Most of what you see is prey driven. Most trainers either don't know how to unleash and or harness fight drive, or are afraid to develop it. Most clubs utilize strictly prey to get work out of a dog.

With an exceptionally good dog you can use this (prey driven )approach to take you far. Even with unfavorable circumstances or pressure. However, it diminishes over time. Another aspect of it is that it can result in inconsistency in the work. Fight drive will carry a dog through even if the conditions are unfavorable..excessive heat, fatigue etc. It is extremely rare to find a good balance of fight and prey drive. With a high (thicker ) nerve dog it is more difficult to get a lot of fight drive out of a dog, unless the training is very geared toward it.

With all the fake protection work (dogs barking for balls in the blind, putting puppies on the helper with a sleeve in a play situation, etc.) in a very high percentage of training environments it is very rare to see. Essentially most dogs are only running on half cylinders.
Why would they be afraid to develop the fight drive? Is it a risk that the dog wouldn't be under control of the handler? Are dogs in fight drive collected and thinking, or are they just in a blind rage? If you have any links to any videos where dogs are being worked in fight vs. prey, I'd really appreciate it; or on how to tell how the dogs are being worked. Sorry for asking so many questions--I'm just genuinely curious.
 
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