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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm interested in your opinions of this breeder:

http://www.sedobermans.com/swift.htm

They are located about 50 miles (80 km) from where I live. I understand they have a litter of pups. I'm not so much interested in their "health guarantee", thinking the health history of the pups ancestors is more of an indication of health.

The one thing that got my attention is the "PayPal", "all major credit-cards accepted" part. If everything else checks out OK, I can overlook that.

I like that their two females are 68lbs and 70lbs (31k), not being "oversize".

Question for my friends in the UK:
What do you know, good or bad, about the "Cryptonite Line"?

My main goal is a healthy Dobie. I'm not going to be breeding or showing her. I just need a Doberman around the house.

Thanks everybody.
 

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Chaz said:
What do you know, good or bad, about the "Cryptonite Line"?
The term "Cryptonite line" is a nonsense statement, designed to impress people who don't know any better.

Ch. Brunswig's Cryptonite is the top winning doberman of all time in the US, and was the top producing stud dog in the breed for quite awhile. He was used extensively (and it could be said excessively)..there aren't that many well bred dogs in the US that DON'T have him in their pedigree...LOL, so it could be said just about EVERY well bred doberman in the country is from the "Cryptonite line".

Additionally-the closest Cryptonite appears in the pedigrees of the dogs on that website is in the 5th generation. Seeing him one or two times that far back has no real relevance..any genetic contribution he'd make would be totally diluted.

These people are a great example of "coat tail breeders"..who don't bother to show their dogs themselves, but use the accomplishments of champion dogs FAR back in their pedigrees to impress buyers.

If you're concerned about the health history involved..i'd stay well away from this breeder. Their bitches, in particular, have pedigrees full of dogs who either died of DCM or produced it in large numbers.
 

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My computer froze up when I went on their site, so I didn't see it all. What I did see threw up a lot of red flags for me. I'd be interested in knowing how much they charge for their pups.... I'd bet way too much.
 

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That's the most bizarre way to post a pedigree I've ever seen. It doesn't show the dog's actual pedigree, just his "good" ancestors. If you want to see actual pedigrees, I can put them together and post them.

The two bitches are littermates, too.

My opinion? Just another byb breeding their own dogs together.
 

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Blackdog said:
That's the most bizarre way to post a pedigree I've ever seen. It doesn't show the dog's actual pedigree, just his "good" ancestors. If you want to see actual pedigrees, I can put them together and post them.
ROFLMAO..I hadn't noticed that, I didn't see the pedigree section! How funny-just list the generations that have champions!

I got curious when I saw Thunder's name being thrown around to impress people, so I bought a pedigree for the bitch(es) from the AKC online store..Mickey is right, they've left out the closest relatives in many cases, and are reaching WAY back in the pedigree for what they're posting on their website.

If someone is going to go to this extreme to misrepresent their pedigrees, what else are they going to tweak the truth about? Things that make you go "hmm"...

I agree..byb's. And SHAME on anyone who would actually sell them a well bred dog!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks, to everyone for your help! This is the kind of advice I was looking for. I won't be buying one of these pups.

Velmadobe, these pups are going for $1,300. I'm glad I checked here first.

Murreydobe and Blackdog, where can I go to get the type of information you found regarding pedigrees and especialy info regarding health history?

Thanks a ton for your help! I don't know where I'd be without you guys!
 

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I was at work today when read this thread Chaz,got home tonite and looked at the pedigrees listed and i have to agree with everyone above(hold nose)
something just smells funny about the pedigrees.As for cryptonite that is the first i have seen the name,but i will check all my uk listings just to see if i can find anything out, just out of curiosity now you are not having a dog off them.Good luck with your quest and i applaud your search for a good healthy dobe from a reputable breeder.
 

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I have most of the studbooks for dobes, although I'm missing some of the 70's & 80's, so if I have a starting point, I can usually research a pedigree backwards.

Health history is harder - most of it isn't published anywhere. You can check the OFA database at www.offa.org, and Dobequest at http://www.dobequest.org/search.php - sometimes you get lucky.

But, anything with Soquel's Distant Thunder in it, ask Cheryl (Murreydobe). If I'm not mistaken, she owned his mother.

$1,300 is way too much for a byb dobe, that's for sure.



Chaz said:
Thanks, to everyone for your help! This is the kind of advice I was looking for. I won't be buying one of these pups.

Velmadobe, these pups are going for $1,300. I'm glad I checked here first.

Murreydobe and Blackdog, where can I go to get the type of information you found regarding pedigrees and especialy info regarding health history?

Thanks a ton for your help! I don't know where I'd be without you guys!
 

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Blackdog said:
But, anything with Soquel's Distant Thunder in it, ask Cheryl (Murreydobe). If I'm not mistaken, she owned his mother.
Yes, he was born in the middle of my bed. :)

It *can* be hard to get health history about dogs in a pedigree..besides Thunder and his family group, I just happen to know about many of the dogs in those pedigree from years in the breed, and many of them were also local to me.

One thing I always suggest is for prospective buyers to ask breeders to mark up a pedigree (5 gen. being best) with lifespan and causes of death for the dogs contained in it.
 

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This MY OWN OPINION. Any breeder that takes a Major Credit Card or PayPal for a puppy or older dog is not a reputible breeder. They are only out for the money. Maybe these BYB's are for the pet shop owners so they can buy there stock of puppies to sell. This issue pisses me right off.
 

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aside from what everyone else says -

what makes you think they are good? no offense, but having standard sized females isnt a hard thing.

look at those dogs and their structure. some pics of their red (zoe) - look at her COAT. look at the toplines, look at their body types.

they offer training for pups, but havent actually put a SINGLE TITLE on their own dogs? yeah, thats who i want training my dog :)

i dont see anything on the site that would make me even give them a second look.
 

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We own 2 dobie's from SEDOBERMANs. One red male 95lbs. and one black female 65 lbs. I have seen many photos of dobies on breeders websites and have looked at some photos in the galleries on this website. I am not being biased when i say that our dobies are two of the best looking that i have seen. The breeder supplies all vet check records for her dogs. Eyes, hips, vw, etc. There are alot of breeders out there. As for the payment method for this particular breeder, she makes it convenient for those who are not close by. She does not do this for a quick buck. On and off leash training are available for free so long as the owner has and is willing to take the time to go to her house. My two dogs have spent countless weekends at her home and were treated like her own when my wife and i would leave town. She charges basically the cost for food. I came across this website by accident. I got a link as i was searching for her website through msn. I felt i could give my opinion from the other side of the spectrum. As an owner of two of her dogs and very satisfied customer.
 

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I agree with MurreyDobe, VelmaDobe, Blackdog, Doberkim, Brumwolf, and Hero's mom, they are not reputable. They do not show their own dogs in any venue which is a huge red flag, why are they breeding pets?

They are backyard breeders and I would not give them a second look either. I agree, when you see major credit cards and paypal type breeders you should run as far away as you can. Huge red flag.

Also, like DoberKim, I found their dogs structure very off and incorrect, the toplines, the body, depth of brisket, etc.
 

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Can someone explain why if a breeder accepts credit cards, that this is a red flag and is not a reputable breeder. Does this mean they should only accept cash or checks? In today's age, accepting credit cards has become more acceptable for both the seller and the buyers for transactions. Sellers that accept credit cards will pay fees to credit card companies for the use of thier services. These fees are often more than what the buyers will incur. Carrying large amounts of cash around these days have become risky and accepting personal checks would be even more risky, due to the ability of not securing funds and then trying to collect funds on personal checks that are in default.

I would think that credit card transactions are more secure for both the buyer and the seller when dealing with high dollar purchases. I would conside anything over $500 a high dollar purcahse. What am I missing?
 

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Kratty said:
Can someone explain why if a breeder accepts credit cards, that this is a red flag and is not a reputable breeder. Does this mean they should only accept cash or checks? In today's age, accepting credit cards has become more acceptable for both the seller and the buyers for transactions. Sellers that accept credit cards will pay fees to credit card companies for the use of thier services. These fees are often more than what the buyers will incur. Carrying large amounts of cash around these days have become risky and accepting personal checks would be even more risky, due to the ability of not securing funds and then trying to collect funds on personal checks that are in default.

I would think that credit card transactions are more secure for both the buyer and the seller when dealing with high dollar purchases. I would conside anything over $500 a high dollar purcahse. What am I missing?
JMO..but I think a breeder has to anticipate making A LOT of sales to make it worth their while to take credit cards. They're in the "business" of dogs rather than just pursuing a hobby. I think it also encourages impulse buying-something that's never good with living things.

Looking at the buyer..my concern about someone who wanted to pay for their puppy with a credit card would be they were buying a dog they couldn't afford. The purchase price is just the beginning of what a dog is going to cost the owner-so that would create some worry about how they'd pay for medical care, etc.

Cashier's checks are another option in addition to personal checks or cash.
 

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I agree with Murreydobe. Taking credit cards is a sign that a breeder has enough volume in sales to justify the set up and the fees for taking the credit cards.

Cashiers checks and also money orders are other options for security,but then again, if a breeder only has an average of one or two litters per year they can afford to take the time to check out their puppy buyers thoroughly so whether their check clears or not shouldn't be a question. They are after all sending a living baby Doberman that they are responsible for bringing into the world, to these people, they should investigate them. They can also not let the puppy go until payment is made.
My experience with buying dogs has been the opposite. Breeders often let the puppy go before payment is made or accept payments, and then issue the registration after payment is completed.

Aside from the *reason* accepting credit cards indicates a volume breeder, the fact is that if you look at breeders' websites you will see that without exception those who state they accept credit cards also have other red flags on their breeding practices.
 

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Kratty said:
Can someone explain why if a breeder accepts credit cards, that this is a red flag and is not a reputable breeder. Does this mean they should only accept cash or checks? In today's age, accepting credit cards has become more acceptable for both the seller and the buyers for transactions. Sellers that accept credit cards will pay fees to credit card companies for the use of thier services. These fees are often more than what the buyers will incur. Carrying large amounts of cash around these days have become risky and accepting personal checks would be even more risky, due to the ability of not securing funds and then trying to collect funds on personal checks that are in default.

I would think that credit card transactions are more secure for both the buyer and the seller when dealing with high dollar purchases. I would consider anything over $500 a high dollar purcahse. What am I missing?
I agree Kratty. While I do also agree that most of the high volume breeders we see do accept credit cards, but for other reasons they are considered not reputable. I don't believe it is an automatic reason to "damn" a breeder. Hypothetically, if I were to breed (lol, just a hypothetical people:) ), we own a credit card machine with my husband's business. So it isn't just b/c someone aspires to be a money making high volume breeder that they could accept credit cards and have a machine for it. Not to mention offering paypal. (they take a lot for their cut, but it is never the less an option)

I don't know about other people, but the days are few and far between that I have even $5 cash in my pocket. Everything down to McDonalds takes cards now. Just my two cents.
 

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Yes, but a reputable dog breeder is more than a high volume McDonalds, and they should be. You do make a pretty good analogy using McDonalds if we were taking about large scale volume breeders IMO.

Cash is not the only option; checks are a valid option too.
Murreydobe explains the problem with accepting credit cards. The purchase price is the least of the total amount that goes into taking care of a Doberman. If they have to pay for a living animal with credit, what is going to happen the rest of the time, what if a problem comes up? Pay with that with credit too? When does it end?

Working for the college, I see a lot of people with major credit problems and I think that reflects the "I want it now" society we live in today. It is surprising easy to get credit for many people and equally easy to abuse the credit and get into major debt.

Small and large-scale businesses alike have caught onto this change and started accepting credit for convenience and economic reasons. That is not a change that I see reputable Doberman breeders flowing with.

I don't think it is okay to encourage individuals to pay for living animals on credit. It may be easier and faster for anyone who has a credit card to get a Doberman, but I don't think easier and faster is always better.
 

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After looking at some of the designated volume-breeder sites vs the reputable breeders sites, the volume dealers do state how they accept payments for their dogs clearly. The interesting fact though, is on the the reputable breeders site, there is no mention of what kinds of payments they do take. Only a few of them actually posted the price of their pups. So without talking to them, it can not be determined what kind of payments they do accept.

So, I can see how this is a red flag when evaluating different breeders and can be an indication along with other things. Hypothectically, if I came across a breeder that fits everything of being a reputable, ethical breeder and they accepted a credit card as payment, would that stop me from getting a pup from them. Probably not.

One of the other comments did catch my attention on the impression of using a credit card to purchase a pup, that it can be an impulse purchase and that they probably can not afford the pup in the first place. In many ways I can agree with this when dealing with irresponsible buyers. On the other end of the spectrum, some people use credit cards to make purchases and pay off their amounts at the end of the month, no matter how big they are. They float the credit card services for the grace period, pay off the balance and use their money for free, while still collecting interest of their own money in the bank, even though interest rates are not that great anymore. They actually make some money this way. plus if you get the cash back rewards it can be an added plus. So everyone that uses a credit card is not the same.

Thanks everyone for your opinions on this...
 
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