[R D]

Hi all.. Been lurking for a while but finally had a question.

After much contemplation and research, (and a very honest evaluation of my lifestyle and what I want in a dog) I am considering adding a Doberman Pinscher to the family. I have a few questions for you guys, though, especially those of you who show.

1.) I have heard from many Dobe people that it is very unwise to keep two male Dobermans in the house. I have a male Papillon and an intact male Border Collie. The BC is a submissive boy and really sweet and the Papillon is..the exact opposite of the BC. Generally speaking, would you guys say it'd be safe to keep a male Dobe in mind, or would you go strictly with a female? (I like both but honestly would prefer a female this time around, since I do have two boys here and the testosterone is filling up the house.)
Which leads me to my second question..

2.) Generally speaking, do you think a breeder would place a bitch pup with show potential in a home that has not owned a Doberman before?
In the two breeds that I have, breeders seem to be highly reluctant to let go of a bitch with show potential, compared to their enthusiasm to place a show quality dog.I don't know how badly show homes are needed in this breed, I know in other breeds there are breeders spaying and neutering most of their show quality dogs and placing them as pets because there are not enough people out there that want to show them. I am not a greatly experienced show home, never shown before in conformation. I am going to try showing my Border Collie in the breed ring (For experience, he doesn't make the cut as far as breeding material goes, but IF he enjoys it I'd like to finish him or at least get him pointed before I neuter him.) I am also preparing to get involved in AKC Juniors, but it is an iffy idea with my Border Collie who thinks stacking is HELL, and can't be convinced otherwise by yummy treats and fun toys. I would definitely want to do juniors with my Doberman, and try showing in breed. (HAHA, I know, I have been told so many times how insane I am for wanting to try that.) If, for some reason I was having trouble handling the dog to his/her full potential I would definitely hire a reputable professional handler, but I'd want the challenge of owner-handling if I had a shot at getting anywhere with it.

Anywho those were just a couple of things on my mind. Sorry for the long post. I always stretch everything out. :tongue23: Thanks in advance for any input, as soon as I get the "okay" from my family to get involved in the breed I will begin looking for a mentor, but for the time being it'd be nice to know what to expect.

 

[greenkouki]

If you are planning to seriously show, you would never neuter a show dog when he is done showing. i could be wrong, but I highly doubt you are really someone who is going to be showing, if you are unsure, I would suggest you visit some doberman breeders at shows, or email and call some and ask questions (there is a ton involved in showing maybe you don't realize it... its not what you see on tv). breeders, not puppy producers, will not usually let a show bitch go. a stud, sometimes is another topic. you will be dealing with a contract almost definently if you get a show bitch or stud. also, if you are going to show you should really consider breeding. if not, maybe you want to do something else with your dog? flyball, ob, agility etc. i would suggest you visit dpca.org akc.org and your library for info on showing and dobes in general BEFORE YOU GET A PUP. of course the pup you want will not be ready when you want him/her, waiting up to a year will be very likely. glad you are considering a dobe. :cool2:
-just my thoughts.

 

[Ann]

R D are you young it sounds like you are then maybe you could assist a handler if theres one in your area. that would teach you how to handle.and give you an in with showpeople. some showpeople do place but they are very careful and want to know them. good luck. some people do run there males but it can be tricky with intact males. they usually only run them when their there to supervise them.

 

[R D]

Greenkouki,
Why would you not neuter a dog after he had finished, if he was not worthy of being bred? My dog is technically finishable, but he's not specials quality and is definitely not a dog I would leave intact for breeding purposes.
You are right, I am not extremely familiar with show ring etiquitte. That's why I'm going to attend classes and talk to breeders and handlers -- to LEARN. Everyone starts out somewhere, and why do you immediately assume that I am not going to be showing? So, since I'm not too familiar with ethics.. Is it considered unethical to show a dog that you are not going to be breeding? I know that the main purpose of showing is to evaluate breeding stock, but I was not aware of the fact that showing could not be done simply for fun, experience and the sake of titling a good dog. I am HIGHLY particular about any dog I would consider breeding, which is why my Border Collie will be neutered.
If I get a bitch to show in the breed ring, I will be keeping breeding in mind of course. If I start attending shows and decide that I love the breed, but don't want a show dog, I will look at getting a pet. ANY dog that I get, whether pet or show, will be shown in performance events of some kind. That's the fun part!
Yes, I expect contracts, and I also do expect a wait. (I'm all too familiar with the long waits, it was four years before I was able to add my first puppy to the family.) I currently do have a breeder in mind that I would like to meet and hopefully learn from, but I want to be absolutely sure on this decision before taking up her valuable time with questions that I could answer on my own with some more research. I have done lots of research, I wouldn't just jump into something like this. I've been learning about the breed sporadically for over a year now, I consider myself to be quite familiar with the standard and temperament of the breed. I've been all over the DPCA site, read up on Dobermans and this month I am going to be attending shows and meeting Dobermans, their owners, breeders and handlers. (Speaking of which, is anyone here from Arizona and planning to attend the Sahuaro Kennel Club show on the 27th?) I still have a lot to learn, which is why I joined this forum in the first place.

Ann, thanks. I'd love to meet a reputable handler and look into assisting them in exchange for some of their valuable knowledge. I honestly am not sure how I could tell a good, reputable handler from one that I don't want to get involved with, though. I suppose one I get to know some Doberman people, I could learn more about that.

Thank you both for your thoughts!

 

[doberkim]

Hi all.. Been lurking for a while but finally had a question.

After much contemplation and research, (and a very honest evaluation of my lifestyle and what I want in a dog) I am considering adding a Doberman Pinscher to the family. I have a few questions for you guys, though, especially those of you who show.

1.) I have heard from many Dobe people that it is very unwise to keep two male Dobermans in the house. I have a male Papillon and an intact male Border Collie. The BC is a submissive boy and really sweet and the Papillon is..the exact opposite of the BC. Generally speaking, would you guys say it'd be safe to keep a male Dobe in mind, or would you go strictly with a female? (I like both but honestly would prefer a female this time around, since I do have two boys here and the testosterone is filling up the house.)
Which leads me to my second question..

nope, i wouldnt consider a male dobe at all. its iffy at best in a household with one male dog, i would never send one to one with TWO male dogs. no matter how much work you put in, i would never trust the dogs together, and it can be hell on earth to keep two (much less three) male dogs separate from each other for the rest of their lives. if you get them understanding that this could be the end result, then its a different story. ive considered it, as i want a male dobe, and when bowie is much older it may be a different story... but i want a household full of animals that can live together and enjoy each other. i dont want to worry constantly who might kill each other.

2.) Generally speaking, do you think a breeder would place a bitch pup with show potential in a home that has not owned a Doberman before?
In the two breeds that I have, breeders seem to be highly reluctant to let go of a bitch with show potential, compared to their enthusiasm to place a show quality dog.I don't know how badly show homes are needed in this breed, I know in other breeds there are breeders spaying and neutering most of their show quality dogs and placing them as pets because there are not enough people out there that want to show them. I am not a greatly experienced show home, never shown before in conformation. I am going to try showing my Border Collie in the breed ring (For experience, he doesn't make the cut as far as breeding material goes, but IF he enjoys it I'd like to finish him or at least get him pointed before I neuter him.) I am also preparing to get involved in AKC Juniors, but it is an iffy idea with my Border Collie who thinks stacking is HELL, and can't be convinced otherwise by yummy treats and fun toys. I would definitely want to do juniors with my Doberman, and try showing in breed. (HAHA, I know, I have been told so many times how insane I am for wanting to try that.) If, for some reason I was having trouble handling the dog to his/her full potential I would definitely hire a reputable professional handler, but I'd want the challenge of owner-handling if I had a shot at getting anywhere with it.

as a relative unknown in the breed, its highly doubtful. it all depends on the breeder and how well they know you, what color you want, etc - but show bitches are in VERY high demand anyway, and most of the responsible, ethical breeders have them sold before they are born, etc. of course, it also depends on each breeder and what they focus on - many show breeders who focus solely on that often are the ones that have huge waiting list, but there are some breeders who focus on both who may have smaller lists because they are not breeding as frequently and as well known. for most breeders, there is no lack of show homes that are looking for dobes, in my experiences.
above all, its very hard for a breeder who does things responsibly (which is often very few litters) to take a chance and send their show potential bitch to a home that has never really lived with the breed and hasnt had experiences showing them, because it often ends up poorly for the breeder- the dog never sees the inside of the ring.

it also depends on the breeder and your relationship - if you build one up, strike up a friendship, etc they may feel differently. thats how i have done things - ive had show potential dogs offered to me in a few instances, and as you know i may actually get one


[If you are planning to seriously show, you would never neuter a show dog when he is done showing.[/quote]
well, there are a lot of things that this depends on. personally, unless i seriously planned on breeding, i would spay my bitch once she finished her CH, because i dont think i am really interesting in specialing a dog (At least not now, things could change). if i had a dog, i could always collect them and then neuter -- competing in performance events is much easier with a speutered animal many times, especially in this breed!

 

[Lexus]

RD,
Hi there nice to hear from you! I back Kim on the male on male issue, 100%. Especially seeing that you have two males already.

As for neutering (or spaying as the case with a female dobe) after titling or when your show career is done, I don't think there is a thing wrong with that. If you desire to show just for the fun and exerience of the event, but do not wish to take on the responsibility of picking a appropriate stud, puppy rearing, and the risks involved, that is just fine.

All and all, from what you've said here, if you do decide a doberman is the breed for you, I believe you will be a great addition to the doberman club! BTW-It is a very responsible and wise thing to do to "do your homework" , so to speak, before just jumping into any breed. So brownie points to you!

Check out the shows in your area as often as possible and be on the lookout for dobermans, and just start asking questions and get yourself seen. (remember not to disrupt anyone that may be getting ready to enter a class though) That way you can start picking up on the who's who of dobies in your area. You can check infodog.com for show listings in your area.

As mentioned above, check out the DPCA for breeders listed in your area that you may be able to contact also. If you can "get in" with someone, than that improves your chances of obtaining a good quality bitch down the line. Plus it can get you some training and ring experience also. In addition to the most important thing, experience with the breed.

 

[Murreydobe]

If you are planning to seriously show, you would never neuter a show dog when he is done showing.

I don't necessarily think that's true. If a dog is going to be campaigned as a special AFTER they earn their championship in an attempt to get them into the doberman top twenty or the all breed rankings, then yes..you wouldn't be neutering them. But VERY few champion dogs are specials quality..that's why they call them "special", very few people want to play the game at that level, either.

There's nothing wrong with the idea of spay/neuter after a dog finishes it's championship. I've neutered male champions before. I have a puppy bitch who'll be starting in the ring probably in January. I have no plans of breeding her, and every intention of spaying her promptly after she finishes her championship.

 

[Murreydobe]

Greenkouki,
I've been learning about the breed sporadically for over a year now, I consider myself to be quite familiar with the standard and temperament of the breed.!

Nothing personal here..but you haven't even scratched the surface of learning about our standard and what ideal doberman temperament might be.

Reading is a good thing, but nothing can replace seeing and having your hands on lots and lots of dobermans. Applying that standard to living animals is complex, especially when it comes to evaluating movement.

 

[Murreydobe]

I am going to try showing my Border Collie in the breed ring (For experience, he doesn't make the cut as far as breeding material goes, but IF he enjoys it I'd like to finish him or at least get him pointed before I neuter him.) I am also preparing to get involved in AKC Juniors, but it is an iffy idea with my Border Collie who thinks stacking is HELL, and can't be convinced otherwise by yummy treats and fun toys. I would definitely want to do juniors with my Doberman, and try showing in breed. (HAHA, I know, I have been told so many times how insane I am for wanting to try that.) If, for some reason I was having trouble handling the dog to his/her full potential I would definitely hire a reputable professional handler, but I'd want the challenge of owner-handling if I had a shot at getting anywhere with it.

Anywho those were just a couple of things on my mind. Sorry for the long post. I always stretch everything out. :tongue23: Thanks in advance for any input, as soon as I get the "okay" from my family to get involved in the breed I will begin looking for a mentor, but for the time being it'd be nice to know what to expect.

As Kim said, there really isn't any shortage of show homes, especially for bitches..and in your situation, a bitch would be the only thing I'd consider.

If I had a litter of puppies, I'd want to know that YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY wanted a doberman as a companion and to show. It's easy to say you'd pay for a handler if necessary..do you have any idea how much that can cost? Are you going to be able to earn enough money to pay a handler..if not, are your parents going to be willing and able to assume that cost for you?

As a young person, your life is going to change dramatically sooner or later..leaving home, maybe going to college. What's going to happen to the dog when that day comes, is this going to be a dog your FAMILY wants if you can't take the dog with you? Are you going to get too busy with school/work and a social life to have time for the dog if you take it with you?

You say you have plenty of plans about showing..I think if you want to be taken seriously you need to get busy and start making some of them a reality. Get your border collie trained and start showing it..there's no better way to PROVE you're committed to following through with a show dog. If you establish yourself in juniors, many times other exhibitors will offer you the opportunity to show one of their finished champions in junior handling...

 

[Lexus]

Get your border collie trained and start showing it..there's no better way to PROVE you're committed to following through with a show dog. If you establish yourself in juniors, many times other exhibitors will offer you the opportunity to show one of their finished champions in junior handling...

Excellant idea.

 

[doberkim]

everything murreydobe says has its real points here -
its one of the MAIN reasons i have not yet added a puppy to my household. i drool, i wish, i hope - but the fact remains, right now in my life is just not right for a puppy. adult dogs are what fit in best for me right now - and im currently halfheartedly eyeing a few adult rescues (of various breeds) that could potentially fit in my home.

my concern is having the time for me to show, the money for me to show, and the time to get to classes, run throughs, matches, etc. as is, with bowie showing in a very limited fashion, just to get his title (and he got his title in three straight shows that were within 2 hours of my home) - i spent over a thousand dollars (ok ok, 200 were spent on photos!!!) just for those shows - ignore the classes, etc. and we arent talking the two weekends of shows i forfeited my entry fees for when i couldnt make them, and then there are the other shows i entered just for more ring experience...

i dont want to get a puppy and have it fail because *I* wasnt able to do what it needed and deserved. i dont want poor socialization because my life got in the way and i needed to pull 15 hours at the hospital - and right now, i dont know where i will be working or where i will be in 1 year, and its not fair to a puppy. bowie (and mya at the time, and future dogs) are dogs that dont need daily socialization and time spent housebreaking. if i come home and all i do is cuddle on the couch, its enough for him. he doesnt need training every single day, he doesnt need to always have his mind stimulated, and he can calm down and just rest. and right now, that fits my lifestyle.

have i strayed off topic? i just think what cheryl wrote about lifestyle is something to REALLY keep in mind - youre young and i KNOW youre dedicated to ripley and dakota, but real life comes in hard and fast, and you will soon be at a crossroads in your life and have to figure out where you will go, and you already have two dogs to consider at that point. it took me MONTHS to originally find housing for my doberman, and right now i pay pretty much twice what most of my classmates pay (which is total more than what my mom pays to rent an entire HOUSE), just so i can live in a place that accepts my animals, and i have no fenced in yard being in college is a hard thing to have animals through many times - your life changes so much, and unfortunately many dogs suffer through it.

definitely take your time, meet the breed more, get to shows, talk to breeders, maybe even contact yuour local dobe rescue and see if you can help them out - take one of the fosters to training classes, see if you can walk dogs, etc. while there are a lot of variations, the breed is VERY different than what you are used to - nothing like dakota and if anything, a lot more like ripley and i know hes been frustrating for you.

 

[greenkouki]

murreydobe, i see nothing wrong with fixing the dog after the titling, but in my opinion, what any thread starter asks for, if one is going to go so far as to put all that time and money into showing then maybe one can get something extra out of showing --even just one litter. Not saying that the experience of showing the dog would not be rewarding enough, but breeding would just be another step that is not too far to reach. I guess the cliche "to each his own" remark always falls into place with opinionated statements

 

[doberkim]

however, i fall into the category that the best thing you can do for the breed is perhaps NOT breed -

just obtaining a CH is not grounds enough to deserve to be bred. we have enough dobermans in the world as it is -- breeding should be left to dogs that REALLY can help the breed. we have pretty - now we need pretty but also healthy, long lived, and with proper (working) temperament. just being pretty doesnt cut it, not for me.

 

[R D]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts
Murreydobe I definitely agree with you about reading, research and looking at dogs meaning very little compared to getting your hands on good dogs and evaluating things (like movement) that are difficult to describe in text. Never did I claim to know everything about Dobermans, I said I was familiar with the standard. Meaning, I am not completely clueless, I have done a lot of research but I still have a LOT to learn. I agree with you about showing my current dog. My Border Collie is currently in training for obedience and baby agility, I'm hoping to be able to get him in the OB ring a couple of times this year. As far as conformation goes, I will try my hardest but I want him to enjoy it. If he doesn't, I will just devote our time to titling him in Agility, which he adores.

I would not get a dog if the entire family wasn't going to accept it. My father is -always- going to say he does not want another dog. He has done that with my Border Collie, but guess who asks me if the dog can sleep with -him- every night? He is not a "dog person" like my mother and I are, he is not as involved with the dogs as I am, but he does really grow to love them. If he wasn't open to bringing one into the house, he wouldn't allow it. I don't know how much sense that makes, you have to know my father to fully understand him.

I have housing plans already for when I am in college, my parents own several apartment complexes and would allow me to live in an apartment with my dogs. My job would be rather dog friendly and if all DIDN'T go as planned my parents would take care of the dogs for me. I think ahead when I add any dog to the family, please don't assume that I am like every other teenager who just wants her puppy NOW, and doesn't care what the future holds.

As for the professional handler and the costs, I do know it is quite expensive in Border Collies but I don't know how much -more- expensive it is in a competitive breed like Dobermans. My parents would be able, to cover the costs but if they wanted me to cover it, I would figure something out, perhaps I could work for the handler in exchange for my dog being handled in the ring. I'm sure there would be something I could do for the handler to cover the costs of them handling my dog, I would just have to ask around.
If that fails, I will of course have a job by then and will be putting a good deal of money away towards dog stuff, as I do even now.

I appreciate the thoughts and concerns, thanks to all who took time to reply.

 

[R D]

everything murreydobe says has its real points here -
its one of the MAIN reasons i have not yet added a puppy to my household. i drool, i wish, i hope - but the fact remains, right now in my life is just not right for a puppy. adult dogs are what fit in best for me right now - and im currently halfheartedly eyeing a few adult rescues (of various breeds) that could potentially fit in my home.

my concern is having the time for me to show, the money for me to show, and the time to get to classes, run throughs, matches, etc. as is, with bowie showing in a very limited fashion, just to get his title (and he got his title in three straight shows that were within 2 hours of my home) - i spent over a thousand dollars (ok ok, 200 were spent on photos!!!) just for those shows - ignore the classes, etc. and we arent talking the two weekends of shows i forfeited my entry fees for when i couldnt make them, and then there are the other shows i entered just for more ring experience...

i dont want to get a puppy and have it fail because *I* wasnt able to do what it needed and deserved. i dont want poor socialization because my life got in the way and i needed to pull 15 hours at the hospital - and right now, i dont know where i will be working or where i will be in 1 year, and its not fair to a puppy. bowie (and mya at the time, and future dogs) are dogs that dont need daily socialization and time spent housebreaking. if i come home and all i do is cuddle on the couch, its enough for him. he doesnt need training every single day, he doesnt need to always have his mind stimulated, and he can calm down and just rest. and right now, that fits my lifestyle.

have i strayed off topic? i just think what cheryl wrote about lifestyle is something to REALLY keep in mind - youre young and i KNOW youre dedicated to ripley and dakota, but real life comes in hard and fast, and you will soon be at a crossroads in your life and have to figure out where you will go, and you already have two dogs to consider at that point. it took me MONTHS to originally find housing for my doberman, and right now i pay pretty much twice what most of my classmates pay (which is total more than what my mom pays to rent an entire HOUSE), just so i can live in a place that accepts my animals, and i have no fenced in yard being in college is a hard thing to have animals through many times - your life changes so much, and unfortunately many dogs suffer through it.

definitely take your time, meet the breed more, get to shows, talk to breeders, maybe even contact yuour local dobe rescue and see if you can help them out - take one of the fosters to training classes, see if you can walk dogs, etc. while there are a lot of variations, the breed is VERY different than what you are used to - nothing like dakota and if anything, a lot more like ripley and i know hes been frustrating for you.

Thanks, Kim. You explained it very well and I do understand. I've made plans to the best of my ability, talked things out with my parents.. Even figured out where I'd like to go to college for the first couple of years until I get the money to be able to move. I know it'll be difficult at times to have the dogs and go to college, but the dogs are so important to me that I would make it work, somehow.

You say that Dobermans are more like Ripley, could you elaborate on that? I have always been told that Dobermans are stable, bold dogs with solid nerves and the ones that I have met did not exactly remind me of Rip.

 

[Prettydobie]

In the puppy section there is a post titled doberman buying guide that you might want to read as well as everything else everyone is telling you. That guide is very helpful. Also expect a wait to assist anyone with anything. I have always wanted to get into breeding but the breeders i e-mailed about maybe talking with them and learning more about breeding but they would never anwser my e-mails. Just keep in thought some people in the show and breeding areas are very picky. If anything do read the the doberman buying guide.

 

[R D]

Thanks Prettydobie. The Doberman buying guide was a good read.

 

[Prettydobie]

I'm glad

 

[doberkim]

im not saying dobermans are not stable and solid - a properly bred one SHOULD. but they will NOT be a border collie - this is something i have to stress to everyone. they will not blindly follow, they will question, challenge, they will put up fights for some things, they will push the limits non stop, they often will blow you off and give you the finger when they want to when they are younger, they can have some very high prey drive... in short, they are a very challenging breed to own train and socialize. their sense of humor and desire to do things their own way can be humorous and humiliating at the same time. in terms of the work you had to put in with rip and how much you had to do, train, and socialize, that is more like what a doberman will be like to live with, in my experiences, research, etc.

 

[R D]

I understand that completely. If I wanted another dog that would be a complete breeze to own, train and socialize, I'd be looking at getting another Border Collie right now.
I want a dog that'll keep me on my toes. I have the time and energy to put that effort into raising the goofy little pup into best dog possible, and I will for the next few years.
My frustration with Rip was not the work I had to put into him, I really do enjoy working with my dogs. I was just frustrated with Ripley because his issues were preventing him from living like a normal dog, but I couldn't really "train them out" of him. Do I want another dog like Ripley? No, thank you. :haha: But I'm willing to take on a challenging dog -- with these two in the house, it's not like I'm not accustomed to living with them.
To me, the "pros" of owning a Doberman seem to greatly outweigh the "cons". I guess I will find out more as I meet more dogs and get more heavily involved with the breed, I can hear over and over about a Doberman's temperament, and think "how great that sounds!" but the only way I can really find out if I love it and would love it on a daily basis is to meet them.