Question

th.ng said:

When it has stood up, quickly give it another command which you know it will obey 100% such as heel, turn and let it follow you to another place and try again. Remember to heap praises (no physical patting) when it heels with you just so that the experience remains positive with the dog. By moving around quickly you also make the dog more enthusiastic about the training, don't stick to the same place too long.

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What's the deal with no physical patting? I ask this because both of the trainers that I've recently decided not to work with were as against physical contact with the dog as they were food reward... It honestly makes very little sense to me. You say heap the praise, but no petting so I assume you mean verbal praise only? How would one go about praising a deaf dog then? What if the dog doesn't respond to verbal praise?
I spoke with cutie trainer #2 (I'm bad but he is cute ) last night and he assured me that his techniques couple corrections with positivie reinforcement but I've yet to see any demonstration of positive reinforcement other than lack of correction for doing a good job.
Would Pavlov's dogs have salivated if the only thing they recieved after they saw the light were curt "good boys"?
If you have a dog that lives to have his ears scratched why not use that as a training device? ie. you get an ear scratch after 3 push ups or 4 minutes heeling... Same as if you have a dog that is very toy or food motivated. Chi gets to tug with a coveted dish towel only when she's done something REALLY awesome while training. (all other dish towels are now placed well out of reach from her telescopic neck, I swear she wouldn't touch a steak on the counter but if she can get a towel, it's all over)
Maybe I've been reading too much on one type of training to be able to firmly grasp the ideals behind another... But I would very much appreciate an explanation of why physical contact during training is a bad thing... I'm sure a friendly pat or an ear scrutch would convey a pleased owner better than a "good girl"...

Tracy, I understand where you are coming from, but let me explain in more detail.

When I work with my Rottie, and he does a command wrongly, I give him an "ahhh" as a correction, as he has learnt to associate that word with negativity.

Then I ask him to heel, walk briskly for about 3-5 paces then begin with what I was doing again.

The moment he begins his heel, I go nuts with verbal praises, such as "Good boy", "That's a good heel", "Come on boy" all the while patting my left thigh to let him associate that with heel. Remember to raise the inflection on your last word, this lets the dog knows that it is a positive reinforcement/encouragement. Dogs, as I have been told, only recognise the final inflection in the commands, thus, sit = bit = fit, etc. The way you say the command will also affect how fast the dog learns.

The reason physical contact is avoided is because, as you said, dogs thrive on physical contact. During such a moment, if he obeys your heel and you pat him, you will distract your dog unnecessarily. Rather just the verbal praises would be enough to keep him going until you think you want to end the session. To keep his attention and keep the training positive, heaping verbal praises and encouragement is sufficient. I think the same would apply with food, this would distract the dog from his purpose at hand. I am sure that there are ways in which to work with a dog with either patting and/or food, but the way I have worked with my Rottie over a year resulted in him looking earnestly to my face waiting for his commands, as opposed to working for a reward, just my experience.

Remember to keep training sessions short too, probably 3 or 4 10-15 minute stints rather than 1 hour sessions once a day.

Once the session is over, I give my dog a big hug and all the patting and scratching he wants. Plus, whenever the session is over and I remove the collar, I give him the command "Free" which lets him know he can go do whatever he wants.

Regards,
TH

TH,
I'm familiar with the ahhhh, in fact I admonished my daughter with it just about an hour ago. She responded quite frankly that she was not one of the dogs and understood the word "No" quite well. <cringe, I'm the worst mom ever!>
I'm glad that you expounded on the voice inflection with praise. I too use it and have what my friends call my "training voice" which is I'm sure very irritating and the cause of all the strange looks I receive while walking one or both of the pooches
I guess the difference lies in the fact that I don't see the food and petting as a distraction, or one that I mind dealing with. In a real life situtation - as opposed to training excersize - your dog may have to down while being petted. I would imagine that petting while training would greatly increase the probablility of him holding that down. On the other hand I realize it could be argued that "in a real world situation, are you going to have a handful of treats?" ( I can honestly answer that as yes because I don't go anywhere without a pack full of treats and the aforementioned towel) But I don't think that praise = end of excersize and Chi at this point knows that reguardless of what "praise" she is getting (other than towel), food or physical petting the excersize isn't over until she hears "okay". BTW, have recently learned what stupid mistake that was and am working on correcting it. Yesterday Chi was at a down when we were approached by a stranger. She held her down beautifully until I - in conversation- said "okay". She then proceeded to jump up and down in hopes of a treat of a game of tug. argggggg, the things we inadvertantly teach 'em, eh? Will think of a better word not likely to come up in casual conversation and replace "okay".
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh in my original response. I think that trainer #2 just really got under my skin last night and I may have been projecting just a bit. His idea of verbal praise is vastly different from yours as he did not encourage any "chatter" like you described and I am so fond of, nor did he understand the concept of inflection. If I were to follow his suggestions Chi would not know whether I was telling her she was good or telling her to go to hades. Very curt, very low key, very monotone is his idea of what little praise should be offered.

I suppose in summary, the method I use is to increase the dog's confidence, focusing on positive reinforcement rather than negative ones. This way, the dog does not become fearful or dread training and instills in the dog (at a later stage) more self-confidence to let the dog make decisions for itself.

I think Chi probably experienced that situation for the first time, and thus, mistook your conversation for a command. Just as a sidenote, the prompt to my Rottie to rush in is "Yes", but it has to be given while the dog is in the "Watch" command.

I think exposing Chi more to these kinds of situations will improve her performance and understanding. Have conversations with your hubby with Chi on a leash and in down. The minute you say "Okay" to your hubby and she reacts, give her a correction, heel, move off and repeat. Otherwise, another word for the release command might be good but it is just a matter of time that the word comes up in your conversation, such as my "Free" for example, which could come up if someone asked me if I had anything on later.

End of exercise for my Rottie is when the collar comes off. Anytime it is on, he is expected to be at his best behaviour, thus my "free" command only applies when I am releasing his collar. Perhaps doing something like that will teach Chi to learn the context of the word?

Regards,
TH

Hi All -
Long time since I've been out here. Just a couple things I would add to the touch/treat/talk training thread. I rarely treat or touch when training - for a couple reasons. 1, I've never needed to - my voice has always been enough, good or bad (talk to them A LOT and leave no doubt when I'm happy with them and when I'm not) and 2, in my experience is harder to teach distance work if they're always looking for the physical reward.
I do teach signs. I can praise my dog from across the field by clenching my fist in front of me and shaking it just a bit (kinda like Jordan did after making a key shot - not raised, waving and overly dramatic, just clenched in front of my stomach) I know they understand because I see that dobie smile and the ear flip in return. I keep training sessions short, always end on a positive, and let them know they're the best dogs in the world after a work session.
But the truth is that it is best to do what works for you and your dog. Like children, no two learn in the same manner at the same rate. If you talk to 100 "professional" trainers, you'll probably get 101 "best" ways to train.
Good luck!
Carol

Maybe by touching her feet to get her to sit, she's over reacting (you know how they get bugged by touching feet) LOL. And it's making her stand all the way up. I just used a treat lure, like Tracy Jo described and held it up and kind of close to the dog...going slowly up. And once the dog really understands the word, "sit" that helps too. Have you tried a clicker? That will mark out precisely what position it is that she's doing right and even if she comes close, you can c/t. If she stands, no c/t. It shouldn't take long for her to figure out what she's being rewarded for.

I also NEVER give a negative correction, verbal or otherwise when a dog doesn't understand what I want...if the dog hasn't learned something yet. It can affect them in the way that it discourages them, even if it's just a little bit. I much prefer and see better results when I show the dog what I mean, reward for even something close and gradually up the ante, holding out on the reward until the dog gives me a little more. If the dog does nothing even close... no reward. But I keep quiet and calm and try again. Maybe I'm not motivating the dog enough or not showing the dog clearly enough....or setting the dog up right.

I find too, that luring with a treat to get a dog into a position shows them best and they need to use their own heads a little bit, as opposed to physically moving them.

Back to the sit from the down....if you, yourself can squat down lower so you're more at her level visually....and lure her up just a few inches, where she's starting to get up...her front legs are straightening up, but she's still low, not quite sitting, I'd click and treat and praise right there. Then walk her around in a circle to seperate the exercise and replace her in a down and do it again only see if she can go up a little higher...maybe not quite a nice, upright sit yet, but reward for a little higher. That way she won't be as apt to go all the way up into a stand. And just continue from there. She'll see that she is getting rewarded for keeping her butt on the ground but rising up a tad. Soon, she'll get the idea that you want her to sit, not stand. If she knows the command word, "sit," that should help too.

Anyhow...a few ideas from my experiences.