Question about loose leash walking.

1991 Views 29 Replies 12 Participants Last post by lyngr, Nov 20, 2006

lyngr

Discussion Starter · Nov 17, 2006

I use a pinch collar and was told by our trainer to stop dead whenever there was tension in the lead then resume when there was slack.

Nike is not a real hard puller but alas, there is always some tension on the lead.. I find myself stopping after every other step. Is this correct and will she ever 'get it' or is it okay for her to be out ahead a bit so long as my arm is not coming out of the socket?

Thanks!

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micdobe

· #21 · Nov 19, 2006

What I SAID was if someone *relies* on the collar to do the work for them. According to you that is not what you did. So I "respectfully" disagree with your comprehension of what I wrwote.

" have to respectfully disagree with that statement. I used to a prong collar in training my dog to heel on walks. He will now heel with a flat buckle collar or even with no collar at all. And I'm a first-time dog owner with just 2 months and 3 days of experience under my belt, so it's not as if I'm an expert trainer. The collar made me a lot better than I would have been without it. In the early stages I was afraid I could never wean my boy off it, but it just took cosistency and patience."

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lyngr

Discussion Starter · #22 · Nov 19, 2006

micdobe said:
Excuse me, but you asked for advice. YOU said the dog was still pulling you. However, I will not respond to any further questions you have, that should make you happy.

I used the prong collar on the advice of trainers, the first time was nearly 30 years ago, the last time about 8 years ago. I was sharing my experience, which was negative. That is known as learning from one's m istakes, as opposed to being perfect from the beginning and never making a mistake.

Hermeneutics are a b!tch on the internet.. written words are easy to misinterpret.

Your last reponse seemed a bit smug.. other people responded and I didn't get that sense from their posts.. but my apologies if that was not the intent.

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eph94

· #23 · Nov 19, 2006

micdobe said:
What I SAID was if someone *relies* on the collar to do the work for them. According to you that is not what you did. So I "respectfully" disagree with your comprehension of what I wrwote.

I must be having one of those dense moments because I still don't see the nuance that you are trying to lay out before me. <<KNOCKS OWN HEAD>>

I just don't understand what you mean by someone *relying* on the prong collar to do the work for them. The prong collar can either take drive away from a dog (one snap) or add drive to a dog (several snaps in succession). For example, if a dog is tugging on a lead, I could give it a Level 3 correction and it would stop tugging--at least momentarily. However, if I gave it a series of quick Level 1 or Level 2 corrections, it would tug even harder. Same collar, different result. For that reason, I just don't see how a prong collar can do the work on its own. How does it know what to "do"? One action ADDS drive and another action TAKES AWAY drive... both using the same prong collar. So, depending on how the handler uses the prong collar, the result can be completely different.

Am I missing the boat here? If so, I'm sorry for wasting bandwidth...

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LapDog

· #24 · Nov 19, 2006 (Edited)

what my mom does with the dogs at the shelter she volunteers at...is pretty simple and I think it is effective...especially if you hate stopping every step lol.
on a long leash she walks in all different directions...sometimes turning around to go the complete different direction the dog wants or plans to go...without or with little talking...loose leash up until the point you change directions...and it will come to the dog as a surprise that your changing direction and the dog will trot to catch up to you...whether they stay in heal position or not...just continue changing directions until they seem like they are watching you more.
even if they are watching you now in heal position...you can continue making turns in any direction

also before a walk...I find it helpful to do alot of CIRCLE LEFTS...even if your legs bump into the dog...they will learn that when you want to go left they have to move out of your way...and that will get them to watch you and remind them that they have to watch and follow you. but I kinda see that being more helpful on a dog that already knows how to heel...but gets ahead of themselves sometimes.

also...put a treat in your MOUTH! lol and show it to them...lol not just for the taste hah! icky sometimes. when a dogs head is UP...they wont pull...but look out when the dogs head is down. We found that putting the treat in front of the dog didnt help us...during training class...I think all it does is distract them...and lure them into walking where you want them to walk...instead, with it in your mouth...they are looking up...not sniffing the ground...or not even focusing on anything else but that treat in your hand (and the ground) lol.

I personally think a prong is better for a dog that is already partially able to heel. I think it used as a quick correction...and not constant...otherwise its no different than a regular collar.

or sometimes all it takes is TASTY TREATS! for puppies atleast...eventually its good to be able to stop using treats lol.

maybe you can mix up the heeling...with random sits...about turns...circles...

hope this helps...

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micdobe

· #25 · Nov 19, 2006

Yes you are missing the boat. Spare me the "drive" and "level 3" "stuff".

That's now what the people asking the questions are doing, nor are they IMO abusively training their dogs in bitework. I will remember not to reply to you again either.

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dobebug

· #26 · Nov 19, 2006

eph94 said:
I must be having one of those dense moments because I still don't see the nuance that you are trying to lay out before me. <<KNOCKS OWN HEAD>>

I just don't understand what you mean by someone *relying* on the prong collar to do the work for them. The prong collar can either take drive away from a dog (one snap) or add drive to a dog (several snaps in succession). For example, if a dog is tugging on a lead, I could give it a Level 3 correction and it would stop tugging--at least momentarily. However, if I gave it a series of quick Level 1 or Level 2 corrections, it would tug even harder. Same collar, different result. For that reason, I just don't see how a prong collar can do the work on its own. How does it know what to "do"? One action ADDS drive and another action TAKES AWAY drive... both using the same prong collar. So, depending on how the handler uses the prong collar, the result can be completely different.

Am I missing the boat here? If so, I'm sorry for wasting bandwidth...

eph94

One of the things I see frequently is dogs who will behave only with a prong or gentle leader. That is what I think was meant by letting the prong (or whatever it is you are using as an aid) do the work. Even though I don't recommend using a halti or gentle leader for Dobes and I do use and recommend using prongs for some dogs they are training devices and the training should continue on through the use of those aids to the ultimate goal--which is probably a well behaved dog on any sort of collar or leash arrangement.

I also want to comment on your statement that prongs can either add or take away drive. I'm guessing you are talking about Leerberg and those methods when you talk about Level 1, 2 and 3 corrections. For people who have never heard of Leerberg or Level of correction I think you need to be more explicit. And I'll warn you that you can't exactly say that 1 Level 3 snap (one hard correction?--is that what you mean?) will take away drive while several Level 1 or 2 snaps (several mild corrections?) will add drive. Doesn't always work that way.

One of the reasons for using a prong is that unless the dog learns to pull constantly (and there are ways of avoiding that) the prong will cause a self correction--dog lunges, get corrected by the pinch collar--most dogs learn pretty quickly not to lunge or pull--but if you don't continue the training process the dog will never learn to walk quietly on a leash rather than do a sled dog routine unless you have the prong on them. The goal, as I said earlier is to have a dog who no longer needs the aid because they have learned the appropriate behavior.

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eph94

· #27 · Nov 19, 2006 (Edited)

dobebug said:
One of the reasons for using a prong is that unless the dog learns to pull constantly (and there are ways of avoiding that) the prong will cause a self correction--dog lunges, get corrected by the pinch collar--most dogs learn pretty quickly not to lunge or pull--but if you don't continue the training process the dog will never learn to walk quietly on a leash rather than do a sled dog routine unless you have the prong on them. The goal, as I said earlier is to have a dog who no longer needs the aid because they have learned the appropriate behavior.

So THAT'S how the collar does the work on its own. I was never taught that the prong collar was "self corrective." The trainer from the Doberman rescue where we adopted our dog showed me how to use the prong collar, making sure the lead never got tight; otherwise, it would be difficult to administer a proper correction. I think that was the main source of my confusion. But now I know. Thank you for clarifying this for me, or I'm be sitting here with my tail between my legs and STILL in the dark.

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lanabana

· #28 · Nov 19, 2006

Hi Lapdog. Thank you for reminding me that was one of the ways I trained my rescue pitbull/pointer. Actually Cesar Millan trained me that way....on the loose leash to make turns when they are not expecting it so they learn that it is isn't their way that rules the walk, that it is mine. I had forgotten how well that had worked with Callie and that she did keep her head up to see what my next move would be. I forgot how well those simple things worked. I am going to take "Long Dog" as I lovingly call him as he is the longest dog I have ever owned - on a walk and see how this works.

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LapDog

· #29 · Nov 19, 2006

...yeah lol. you figure you may not make it directly around the block...but you can for sure go for a "walk" haha...a parking lot...works good or a big drive way...it just might not be a straight walk lol.

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lyngr

Discussion Starter · #30 · Nov 20, 2006

dobebug said:
eph94

One of the things I see frequently is dogs who will behave only with a prong or gentle leader. That is what I think was meant by letting the prong (or whatever it is you are using as an aid) do the work. .

Your explanation and 'delivery' is better. Great post. Thank you.

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