Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner
1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
I Art Therefore I Am
Joined
·
3,813 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I use a pinch collar and was told by our trainer to stop dead whenever there was tension in the lead then resume when there was slack.

Nike is not a real hard puller but alas, there is always some tension on the lead.. I find myself stopping after every other step. Is this correct and will she ever 'get it' or is it okay for her to be out ahead a bit so long as my arm is not coming out of the socket?

Thanks!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
675 Posts
What is okay is whatever you want it to be, however you want her to walk. Personally, I let my dogs walk in front of me and sniff the roses or whatever, as it's part of the enjoyment of the walk for them. If I want to train them in obedience, then they have to heel next to me.

I don't know anyone who would use a prong collar on a puppy that young.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,374 Posts
Have you tried the Gentle Leader or Haltie? It works really well and my Dobie is 95lbs and my pit is 70lbs. They can't pull, there is no pinching or pulling involved and for me it works amazingly well. My pitbulls trainer suggested it and it has been a godsend with the Dobie as well.
 

·
Extraordimary
Joined
·
5,072 Posts
The Gentle Leader and the Halti are really contraindicated in a breed that is predisposed to neck problems (Wobblers disease). They put an awful lot of torque on the neck and are not a good idea for Dobermans. Not to mention that they look like muzzles, giving the public the wrong opinion about your dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,374 Posts
Hmmm, I didn't consider the Doberman neck and the Gentle Leader....I will definately ask my vet about that.

I live in Los Angeles, where using a pinch or prong collar is so frowned upon that people will literally stop you on the street or at dog park to say something (it has happened to me). Everyone uses Gentle Leaders or Halties with their dogs here (other than regular collars and leashes)....which I hope at some point my Dobie will be trained enough to use (without taking me down).

But thank you for telling me about the concern with these types of collars with Dobies....I did not know this and I sure don't want to cause him any injury.
 

·
I Art Therefore I Am
Joined
·
3,813 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
micdobe said:
What is okay is whatever you want it to be, however you want her to walk. Personally, I let my dogs walk in front of me and sniff the roses or whatever, as it's part of the enjoyment of the walk for them. If I want to train them in obedience, then they have to heel next to me.

I don't know anyone who would use a prong collar on a puppy that young.

What would you use then? Do I return to the martingale and let her pull until she chokes herself.. because that's exactly what she does everything but the pinch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,752 Posts
Mensa'a nine months now, and she has been wearing a prong-collar on her walks for at least three months now.

She had the same problem Nike has, she would pull so hard on the leash I was worried it was going to cause her spinal problems down the line.

The prong-collar has fixed that, we both enjoy walks now and I don't have to worry about her injuring herself.

So far, no one has said anything negative about her prong-collar, and like Lanabana, I'm in So. Cal.

Most places we walk, Mensa doesn't need a leash. I only leash her when we're near streets and other places where she can't be running where ever she wants.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,030 Posts
I use a pinch on Buddy he is almost 7 months old but I also have some disability's. Choke chains can be worse on the Trachea than a pinch years ago the Oklahoma city Schuhund club trained half the dogs with pinch collar & half with choke chains. Dogs with the choke chains had more Trachea damage???If any one asks just educate them ask if they rather be choked or pinched??? Yes some people will not listen but they do have some pinch collars with rubber tips makes them look better??? The pinch dose not have to be forever once they get older & go thru obedience you maybe able to go to a buckle collar.
Patches Mom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,942 Posts
Hi Lyn,

I had to use a pinch on one of my Dobe's from a young age, but was able to train off of it rather quickly. I usually don't recommend it for puppies, but in certain cases young dogs do benefit from the correct use of a prong. My current puppy is awesome in a flat collar or nylon slip lead. But not all puppies are as easy...I got really lucky.

I haven't seen your dog or you working with her, so I can't say if it is good in your situation or not. I know my training club supported the use of a prong on mine, which helped. Some people put a bandana on their dog so people can't see the prong and judge them. I sometimes get comments when my Dobes are puppies and their ears are up in posts, but I never care or say something like, yeah, it really bothers them, just look at them (as the puppies are happily wanting some attention or petting), or depending on my time let the individuals know it really isn't that bad, etc.

I used the prong just long enough so that I could train and have some decent focus from a prey driven wild easily excitable monster, without the dog choking to death and being a sled dog and pulling my arm off.

I know some of the people at the training club use head halters for their dogs (not Dobes), but I also worry about using them with Dobes for the reasons people already gave. Some even put puppies on harnesses, which does encourage pulling IMO but doesn’t hurt the neck when they do pull. It works good for some. I even know of one that uses a metal choke for her Dobe puppy, but I would NEVER EVER recommend a puppy who likes to pull be put on a metal choke to be trained, it can really do damage to the puppy.

Jessica is TOTALLY right, the walk is whatever you want to make it. If you want the dog to heel and stay beside you during the walk, then the dog should heel at all times, you can train her to do that easily with a slip lead for walks.
For a competitive heel ( I don't know if you are interested in getting a CD or higher), I train off leash, no collars, armed with lots of treats and toys in my house or backyard. I keep the sessions short and happy and it works really well and go longer between treating as I see they are connecting the dots. My first Dobe I trained competitively heeled better off leash than on b/c of this in the beginning and for some months after. My current Dobe is doing awesome at both, but has mostly been trained naked with treats or toys so off leash and on leash look the same. But training a walk and training for trials is different, but the concept of heel is the same, heel means walk beside me in heel position, loose leash or no leash.

If you want to interchange between heeling and "go free" (giving freedom) then do so. Say she walks in a nice heel for a little bit, then you let her lead and "do her thing" for awhile, then call her back to heel, and so on.
If all you want a nice loose lead walk, then train for that. You can do a search in this forum for more detailed info ( I searched but couldn’t find the thread quickly), but you can use treats to help her learn this. Treat her for paying attention to you and walking correctly, use praise and let her know when she is doing well.

The make like a tree (stop walking when you feel pulling) can work for some dogs, but not all. Also you can try changing directions real fast when she is getting too far ahead of you, that will make her have to stay somewhat close to you or at least keep an eye on you so she can keep up. Some dogs think it is a fun game, and it is effective for some.

Ask your trainer what else she or he recommends. Also ask the rescue, I am sure they have dealt with their fair share sled dog Dobes. She is still very young though, and I do think it is important to keep that in mind.
 

·
I Art Therefore I Am
Joined
·
3,813 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
First, let me say thank you for everyone's thoughts...

I don't need competitive heeling. I just want a dog that doesn't pull while walking. I don't care if she sniffs or walks a bit ahead of me, so long as she's not walking me!!

I have tried the martingale and the harness.. neither work. I don't like the idea of the halti or the choker.

The pinch works. I never tug or yank. And she never pulls hard enough in it to make me think that it could be harmful to a 'puppy that young'. In fact, it was off of the advice of my trainer (who has over 25 yrs experience with dominant breeds and who came highly recommended by the rescue group) that I use the pinch collar in the first place.
I don't plan on using it indefinitely.. I understand that it is a training tool.

For the record, I could care less what people think as they pass by. These are usually the same people who think min pins are small dobes.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
675 Posts
What I would do is train the dog. If you rely on the prong collar only, you will always have to use it. In that sense the dog is never trained. The "tree" method will work faster if you use treats. I don't stop whenever there is just "tension" on the leash, but if my dog lunges ahead and jerks me with him, then I stop short and he can't reach that tree or whatever he was trying to get to. Then when he just looks at me, I use a bridge word, which serves the same function as a clicker but I don't have to actually carry a clicker with me. I used "Ja", since it was a word the dog never heard anywhere else, and as soon as he made eye contact with me, whether the leash was loose or not, I said Ja, and then gave him a treat. Eventually he learned that was how to get the treat and would immediately look at me, then he started coming toward me to get the treat, which made the leash loose, so as soon as he ate the treat we started again. This worked relatively fast for me, but all dogs are different.
 

·
Registered
1
Joined
·
8,070 Posts
I just started using the Gentle leader with *******. I find once she has it on she does not really pull at all. If she does start to pull I just pull my finger back ever so slightly on the leash and she stops. Although you are not to use them on Dobermans I find I don't have to pull on it at all. Having a buckle collar on her I felt was making things worse. I have been working with her to get her attention while walking, we will then progress into the heel.
One day I will use it the next day I won't, this way she is learning. I find with the halti's and gentle leaders they are not really teaching the dog to walk gentle. Once you take it off them they can start pulling all over again.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
675 Posts
Martingales and harnesses are not training collars. In fact, harnesses are designed to "encourage" pulling rather than discourage it. That's why they're used in pulling activities. So to say you 've tried those two things is not to say you've run the gamut of training aids. They're not designed for training.

I have used a prong on two dogs, one a 9 month old puppy and one an adult. Both were negative experiences. The first one never completely got over the training problem caused by the prong, despite years of work. The other dog injured his throat when he learned to simply ignore the prong and pull into it anyway. So I am not a fan of them. So far I have managed without them with my current young dog.

IMO they are suited to small people with very large and hairy dogs, such a st bernards, who wouldn't be aware of an owner's correctins any other way, but that's it.

Use what you want as you will of course anyway, altho you're using it now and you are apparently still having a problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,942 Posts
lyngr said:
For the record, I could care less what people think as they pass by. These are usually the same people who think min pins are small dobes.

LOL!! Isn't that the truth....or that Dobermans turn on their owners suddenly one day, or their skulls outgrow their head, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,374 Posts
Okie Dobie - thank you for your thoughts....my Dobie does the same thing once I have the gentle leader on....he really doesn't pull...he kind of accepts that it is time to walk nicely. With my boyfriend he will always walk nicely with a regular collar - with me...well it does not turn out as well. I know, obviously he doesn't listen to me as much as he should. More training is probably the answer in my situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
micdobe said:
If you rely on the prong collar only, you will always have to use it. In that sense the dog is never trained.
I have to respectfully disagree with that statement. I used to a prong collar in training my dog to heel on walks. He will now heel with a flat buckle collar or even with no collar at all. And I'm a first-time dog owner with just 2 months and 3 days of experience under my belt, so it's not as if I'm an expert trainer. The collar made me a lot better than I would have been without it. In the early stages I was afraid I could never wean my boy off it, but it just took cosistency and patience.

As Ed Frawley says in the Leerburg obedience training videos, "One good correction is better than 1000 nagging corrections."
 

·
I Art Therefore I Am
Joined
·
3,813 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
micdobe said:
Martingales and harnesses are not training collars. In fact, harnesses are designed to "encourage" pulling rather than discourage it. That's why they're used in pulling activities. So to say you 've tried those two things is not to say you've run the gamut of training aids. They're not designed for training.

I have used a prong on two dogs, one a 9 month old puppy and one an adult. Both were negative experiences. The first one never completely got over the training problem caused by the prong, despite years of work. The other dog injured his throat when he learned to simply ignore the prong and pull into it anyway. So I am not a fan of them. So far I have managed without them with my current young dog.

IMO they are suited to small people with very large and hairy dogs, such a st bernards, who wouldn't be aware of an owner's correctins any other way, but that's it.

Use what you want as you will of course anyway, altho you're using it now and you are apparently still having a problem.

I never claimed that I ran the gamut of techniques!! I am always open to better methods if they seem logical. I absolutely would never want to hurt my dog by inadvertently doing the wrong thing...

But with all do respect, to suggest that I am not taking the time to train my dog is bunk. Please don't wag your finger at me after you've just admitted to using the very same device.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
675 Posts
Excuse me, but you asked for advice. YOU said the dog was still pulling you. However, I will not respond to any further questions you have, that should make you happy.

I used the prong collar on the advice of trainers, the first time was nearly 30 years ago, the last time about 8 years ago. I was sharing my experience, which was negative. That is known as learning from one's m istakes, as opposed to being perfect from the beginning and never making a mistake.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top