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Julietta
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi there!

So, my father has always wanted a young male Doberman who has his ears cropped and well trained, as he's always had dogs when he was growing up, especially Dobermans.

This season, I was really excited to do some research on great breeders. I went on to DPCA and sent out an email to three breeders, and only suspicious of one. I was hoping if anyone on here knew any good breeders, who have paper work right in their hands, and charge underneath a grand (as I'm only a beginning college student).

As for distance of location, I hope it's close to 25-50 mile radius away from SF.

Any and all help is really appreciated. Thanks everyone!

:thanx:
 

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I'm sorry, but you will not find a puppy for under $1000 from a good breeder. They cost more than that to raise.

In that area it's probably going to be more like $2000 and up for a well bred (and not so well bred) puppy. There are plenty of bad breeders out there so be very careful.
 

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agreed with Linda. you, right now, cannot afford to buy a well bred puppy. save your money. furthermore, no ethical breeder will allow you to buy a puppy as a present for someone else. your father *must* be involved in communications with the breeder. save your money, and when you have it, tell him you and he are going to get him a doberpup.
 

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Julietta
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
agreed with Linda. you, right now, cannot afford to buy a well bred puppy. save your money. furthermore, no ethical breeder will allow you to buy a puppy as a present for someone else. your father *must* be involved in communications with the breeder. save your money, and when you have it, tell him you and he are going to get him a doberpup.
Oh, yeah, of course my dad will be involved; I had no intention on blindly going into a breeder's facility without another opinion around. :)

Thanks for your advice! That sounds like a better idea :)
 

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excellent. :) make a point to go to local shows, as that's a GREAT way to meet well-bred dogs. take note of their breeders (it should be in their registered name somewhere), and contact them when you're ready.
 

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Julietta
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I'm sorry, but you will not find a puppy for under $1000 from a good breeder. They cost more than that to raise.

In that area it's probably going to be more like $2000 and up for a well bred (and not so well bred) puppy. There are plenty of bad breeders out there so be very careful.
Hm, that seems right. One of the breeders that I emailed was selling the puppies for seven hundred, with an additional 375 for ear cropping. They give a health guarantee and all of the puppies' medical records/application/etc, so I don't know if that should cancel out the suspicious feeling?

In general though (future wise), what medical work/paper work does a good breeder provide? I know it should be at least any and all medical history and proof of it as well as its registration number/application form. But are there specific medical checks that I should find?

Thank you for your advice! Really helped a lot :)
 

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Hm, that seems right. One of the breeders that I emailed was selling the puppies for seven hundred, with an additional 375 for ear cropping. They give a health guarantee and all of the puppies' medical records/application/etc, so I don't know if that should cancel out the suspicious feeling?

In general though (future wise), what medical work/paper work does a good breeder provide? I know it should be at least any and all medical history and proof of it as well as its registration number/application form. But are there specific medical checks that I should find?

Thank you for your advice! Really helped a lot :)
i think you might benefit from reading this: DPCA | The Doberman | Health

an ethical, reputable breeder should be testing for everything in that list. heart testing include both an annual holter and an annual echocardiogram from 2 years of age. the PKD test (blood test) can also be done but as of right now it doesn't tell us anything.

furthermore, no breeder should be breeding young dogs (under the age of 2.5-3, IMO) or untitled dogs. AKC papers do not mean titled...titling means they're actually proving the dog should be bred in some sort of venue, either sport or the Conformation ring. ideally, you'd want someone who titles in both venues.

the breeder you found? most likely is NOT doing everything right. i would avoid.
 

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Got mutt?
Leo, Lily, and Simon
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Julietta
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
i think you might benefit from reading this: DPCA | The Doberman | Health

an ethical, reputable breeder should be testing for everything in that list. heart testing include both an annual holter and an annual echocardiogram from 2 years of age. the PKD test (blood test) can also be done but as of right now it doesn't tell us anything.

furthermore, no breeder should be breeding young dogs (under the age of 2.5-3, IMO) or untitled dogs. AKC papers do not mean titled...titling means they're actually proving the dog should be bred in some sort of venue, either sport or the Conformation ring. ideally, you'd want someone who titles in both venues.

the breeder you found? most likely is NOT doing everything right. i would avoid.

Noted! I sent out an email with questions on all of the health requirements from the DPCA and from what you mentioned. I want to see what they reply even though I'm sure that I won't be purchasing anything from them anytime soon.

Thanks for your help, seriously. I just got saved from making a bad decision! :)
 

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Holier Than Now
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Noted! I sent out an email with questions on all of the health requirements from the DPCA and from what you mentioned. I want to see what they reply even though I'm sure that I won't be purchasing anything from them anytime soon.

Thanks for your help, seriously. I just got saved from making a bad decision! :)
Sounds like you're on the right track, researching, learning, and questioning :nicejob:

Keep in mind, as you continue to read and search, that you will start to note some red flags--the more you do this, the more readily you will recognize those red flags.

The price alone from the one breeder is a huge red flag.

Think if you found a brand new construction house down the street from you, for sale for, say, 21K.

Now, wouldn't you immediately be suspicious of that? How in the world could a builder do a new house, for that amount, and do it correctly, right?

Instead of real wood, they used particle board. They built the foundation out of substandard concrete that will rot away first good rainfall, and on top of that, they acquired the lot cheap, 'cause it's on an old toxic waste dump :p

Now, just because someone is charging a big price for Doberman pups, does NOT necessarily mean they did things right--there are crooks and con artists out there in all walks of life, BUT if the price is overly cheap, then really there is no way they could have done all the pre-breeding health screenings of the parents, could not have paid a stud fee for the best match for their bitch's conformation and pedigree, and could not have competed with their dogs, so they know what they really have, in terms of soundness and temperament.

All of that above will affect the quality of pet you acquire from them--and you should REQUIRE of anyone selling a pet to you, that they do things right.

And in return, they do deserve a fair market value for all their thought, planning, and hard work, the investment in that litter.
 

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Julietta
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Sounds like you're on the right track, researching, learning, and questioning :nicejob:

Keep in mind, as you continue to read and search, that you will start to note some red flags--the more you do this, the more readily you will recognize those red flags.

The price alone from the one breeder is a huge red flag.

Think if you found a brand new construction house down the street from you, for sale for, say, 21K.

Now, wouldn't you immediately be suspicious of that? How in the world could a builder do a new house, for that amount, and do it correctly, right?

Instead of real wood, they used particle board. They built the foundation out of substandard concrete that will rot away first good rainfall, and on top of that, they acquired the lot cheap, 'cause it's on an old toxic waste dump :p

Now, just because someone is charging a big price for Doberman pups, does NOT necessarily mean they did things right--there are crooks and con artists out there in all walks of life, BUT if the price is overly cheap, then really there is no way they could have done all the pre-breeding health screenings of the parents, could not have paid a stud fee for the best match for their bitch's conformation and pedigree, and could not have competed with their dogs, so they know what they really have, in terms of soundness and temperament.

All of that above will affect the quality of pet you acquire from them--and you should REQUIRE of anyone selling a pet to you, that they do things right.

And in return, they do deserve a fair market value for all their thought, planning, and hard work, the investment in that litter.
I LOVE that analogy! It reminds me of the time when I started to look for apartments in SF and it said 4 bedrooms, for $900 a month. It was a huge lie, obviously.

Thank you so much for such a helpful comment!

I just made a list of all the things a breeder should have before they sell a puppy, and it has educated me to a whole another level.

:thanx:
 

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Hm, that seems right. One of the breeders that I emailed was selling the puppies for seven hundred, with an additional 375 for ear cropping. They give a health guarantee and all of the puppies' medical records/application/etc, so I don't know if that should cancel out the suspicious feeling?

In general though (future wise), what medical work/paper work does a good breeder provide? I know it should be at least any and all medical history and proof of it as well as its registration number/application form. But are there specific medical checks that I should find?

Thank you for your advice! Really helped a lot :)
You should see hard copies of health tests on the PARENTS of the litter before purchasing. You need to see proof and reputable breeders will understand this and willingly show the hard copies with health tests results. I see Rosemary has linked you to some good examples. Be sure to check the names, registration numbers and dates on the certificates for accuracy.

Not all breeders are equal in testing. Some do more than others. It will be up to you as to what health testing you want done and what you can live without or if you want every last test done.

You can often do quick searches online to rule breeders in or out. Dobequest has a place for listing of health tests in a dog's profile. Example: Dobequest:Dog Profile Page

I used for an example an owner and dog who passed in a housefire because she was kind enough to explain how to read the test results in the OFA database. The OFA database lists all health tests a dog has that the owner wants listed. There is a fee for listing so not all breeders choose to list results. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Murreydobe's explanation is here, post #74. This whole thread would probably benefit you to read as there is a lot if valuable information in it. Murreydobe was an invaluable source of information and it was a blow to the doberman world to loose her expertise and willingness to share her knowledge on various doberman forums. http://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding-breeders/38147-soquel-dobermans-4.html

Educate yourself on the DPCA website: http://dpca.org/breed/breed_health.htm

And you should know what a proper doberman should look like: The DPCA | Judges Education

This is very good as it has pictures: http://www.dpca.org/JEC/illustrated_standard/SizePropSubstn/size_proportion.htm

Believe I covered all I meant to...except one more thing.

http://www.dpca.org/BreedEd/articles/45-breedinggenetics/126-breeders-good-and-bad
 

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Julietta
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
You should see hard copies of health tests on the PARENTS of the litter before purchasing. You need to see proof and reputable breeders will understand this and willingly show the hard copies with health tests results. I see Rosemary has linked you to some good examples. Be sure to check the names, registration numbers and dates on the certificates for accuracy.

Not all breeders are equal in testing. Some do more than others. It will be up to you as to what health testing you want done and what you can live without or if you want every last test done.

You can often do quick searches online to rule breeders in or out. Dobequest has a place for listing of health tests in a dog's profile. Example: Dobequest:Dog Profile Page

I used for an example an owner and dog who passed in a housefire because she was kind enough to explain how to read the test results in the OFA database. The OFA database lists all health tests a dog has that the owner wants listed. There is a fee for listing so not all breeders choose to list results. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Murreydobe's explanation is here, post #74. This whole thread would probably benefit you to read as there is a lot if valuable information in it. Murreydobe was an invaluable source of information and it was a blow to the doberman world to loose her expertise and willingness to share her knowledge on various doberman forums. http://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding-breeders/38147-soquel-dobermans-4.html

Educate yourself on the DPCA website: DPCA | The Doberman | Health

And you should know what a proper doberman should look like: The DPCA | Judges Education

This is very good as it has pictures: Size/Proportion

Believe I covered all I meant to...except one more thing.

Breeders - Good And Bad - DPCA Breeder/Exhibitor Education
Definitely bookmarked all of these links! Especially, the last link did it all. I just added another two pages to my check list.

Thank you so much! I really appreciate it :)
 

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wildsorrows, i have to say, you're the refreshing sort of newbie i wish we had come around here more often. i hope you stick around!
 

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Julietta
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
wildsorrows, i have to say, you're the refreshing sort of newbie i wish we had come around here more often. i hope you stick around!
Haha, thank you! :)

I did some more research on breeders who are qualified near SF Bay and I found the most adorable puppies, with qualified screenings and documentation (PLUS parents' included) and it follows most of the check list, plus they give you a whole puppy set to take care of them. The problem is that my dad wants to get a puppy that has his ears already cropped. The puppies aren't cropped in the kennel and they're giving a worthy deal for finance. I could afford it and everything, but the cropping is being an issue. How do you get someone to understand that you can get the cropping done AFTER buying the pup? Before it's too late?
:confused:
 

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Love the Nub
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I'd say that anyone charging extra for ears cropped, or not cropping the ears in the U.S. is an issue because the U.S. standard calls for cropped ears. So if you're looking at show line breeders, you want someone breeding to standard (as well as health testing, titling, etc.). Cropping ears are an art form that most great vets unfortunately just don't do well. You really need an experienced cropping vet, which reputable breeders have do their litters. If you take a puppy somewhere, chances are, you are going to wind up with a bad crop. In my opinion, I'd rather have a natural eared dobe, then one with a bad crop. Plus, it's a red flag on the breeder. If you're willing to travel some, Foxfire Dobermans is in OR. However; the price is going to be in the $2k to $3k range. Are you open to rescuing at all? You can find puppies in shelters and rescues often times.
 

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Haha, thank you! :)

I did some more research on breeders who are qualified near SF Bay and I found the most adorable puppies, with qualified screenings and documentation (PLUS parents' included) and it follows most of the check list, plus they give you a whole puppy set to take care of them. The problem is that my dad wants to get a puppy that has his ears already cropped. The puppies aren't cropped in the kennel and they're giving a worthy deal for finance. I could afford it and everything, but the cropping is being an issue. How do you get someone to understand that you can get the cropping done AFTER buying the pup? Before it's too late?
:confused:
This is an expensive breed to purchase and a very expensive breed to maintain. Just something to think about.
 

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Wildsorrows, good reputable breeders crop their puppies ears and cropping is included in the purchase price. Cropping is not an option and it's not billed extra. The only time you might find a reputable breeder not cropping might be a working breeder who has puppies that could possibly compete in Europe where they no longer allow cropping and docking.

Kate is right in that very few veterinarians can properly crop ears. Cropping is an art and is not taught in veterinarian schools. A vet might say he can crop, but the results are often horrendous with huge bells left on or a pit bull crop on a long noses doberman.
 
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