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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a mayor dilemma and while I was performing a google search, I came across this forum. What better way to get an opinion than asking other doberman owners and breeders their opinions.
4 months ago I purchased a doberman puppy from a breeder in New York who claims to have been breeding dobermans for over 20 years. I would like to reserve the name until I make a sound decision as to expose her or not. This woman and I had relatively good communication. (I say relatively, and you'll understand why as you read.)

In my excitement to see the puppy that I didn't fully examine him. He was absolutely gorgeous! He had his ears taped up with duct tape and looked really funny, but was adorable nonetheless. After several conversations with this breeder, I began suspecting she was not the best choice of breeders. Some things were not right. I had asked her about the ear crop and without warning, she shot back, "I didn't do them, the vet did!" The thought of her performing the crop had not gone through my mind. In another conversation, she confessed that she used to crop the ears herself but can no longer do it due to her shaking hands, but if I ever wanted to breed, she would crop and dock all the puppies very cheap for me. She says she used to be a vet tech.

I took my puppy home and from the very beginning, noticed he had a very sloppy walk. It's one of those things that make you tilt your head in a confused manner. Within a week, I took him to my vet for his puppy shots. The vet too was perplexed by his walk. I was instructed to keep an eye on him.
Because the "wobbling" only got worse over the next few months, I was referred to a neurologist. My neurologist has informed me that he has a neurological disorder and possibly wobblers. When I called to warn her through uncontrollable crying she seemed genuinely surprised. She called her vet to talk to the neurologist. She then called me back and told me that the doctors had spoken and that the neurologist said they didn't know what my puppy has. Not true. I called my neurologist and she again confirmed that it was indeed genetic and that she did tell the breeder's vet.

I am very distraught. She doesn't want to take responsibility for her dogs carrying this disease. What she did offer was to take my puppy back and give me another puppy from a litter she is expecting. My puppy is 7 months and we are very attached. I can only wonder what she would do with him, she cannot breed him. I don't want another puppy, more than likely, we never will want another puppy, least of all from her. Will she continue to feed and take care of a dog that she has no use for? My response to her was that she should return the money that I paid for him and I would use it for his very expensive testing. Nothing else. We want to keep our puppy and do everything we can and keep him for all of his life whether it's long or short.

My question is if this is a fair request on my part? We are not rich and would need to borrow money from family members to continue testing.

I have not told my children yet and don't want to make any decisions under the condition that I am right now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I forgot to mention that my vet noticed that our puppy only had one testicle descended. He was 12 weeks. Is that something a breeder should have noticed or not? At that time she offered to exchange him. We kept him anyway. He's 7 months and still no testicle. She only tells me to wait that it should descend by a year old. I'm clueless.
 

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First off, I agree that she should refund your money to help pay the vet bills. There was a time when I thought I might have to return my Parker. I was immediately offered my money back with the return of him. Then as we talked, because I did want another puppy from her, she offered another pup without the return of Parker but the possibility of me rehoming him to someone. Let me tell you I am very picky about who gets a puppy/dog from me. So much so I have ended up keeping everyone for the last 17 yrs or so cause I can never approve a home it seems. So not all good breeders demand that you return a pup or insist on giving you a replacement puppy.

She definitely knows that testicle should have decended by now and is not likely to at his age. It will be very expensive to neuter him as the vet will have to do abdominal surgery to remove the retained testicle. She would have to be a negligent breeder not to have checked a male puppy to make sure the testicles have decended.

Personally I would not necessarily out her till I got my money back...if she won't return the money, you have no reason not to out her but plenty of reasons to warn others about her horrible actions concerning your puppy.

I am so sorry about your puppy. Not a good thing to happen to a first time doberman owner. You possibly have a long road ahead of you, but there is surgery for wobblers. May I ask what other neurological issues he has?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Her name is Holly Reece and her kennel is Holly's Kennel which used to be in Islip, NY but I think she may have moved.
dobermansoflongisland
She refuses to test her breeding dogs for Wobblers even though the one she sold me has Wobblers. It's so horrible to think she won't even test them and is going to continue to sell these puppies knowing they could be horribly sick!
 

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We had a puppy (not a doberman) a few years ago...eh probably 10 years ago and when we brought him home we had all sorts of problems with him, he had a heart defect, neurological problem, etc. We brought him to the vet ask what the vet thought got it in writing and how he said this puppy was unfit for sale. We then went to our lawyer (my mom worked for one and my sister is one) and he sent them a letter with the bill attached and the bill. The kennel paid for all of the bills after saying on the phone they wouldn't. A letter will surely get their attention.
 

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I'd bet dollars to doughnuts she's doing those ears herself. I have never seen ears wrapped with duct tape like that. Bizarre.

I think the very least she can do is refund your money. If she doesn't, I think you could take her to court since she negligently sold you a sick animal.

Here on DT we are very vocal about our hate and disdain for back-yard breeders (BYB) and these situations are exactly why. THe poor puppies, poor parents, and poor puppy owners who didn't know any better. I am very sorry this has happened to you and your family.
 

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Kudos to you for keeping the puppy! I've known lots of people who preach about loving their puppies like children but things go bad or they just get bored and get rid of them. You wouldn't send a special needs child away because they came with difficulties! More dog owners should be like you and love their puppies as they are! I think it's a reasonable request, I would do the same!! I own a jewelry business and I offer a lifetime guarantee if anything breaks, I fix it for free. Because happy customers are what make this worth it to me and my reputation is everything! What's the point if I sold poorly made work? Breeders are the same, but on a MUCH larger scale!! They rely on their reputations and if I were her, I'd happily give you the money back because happy customers are what keep breeders going.
 

· Sea Hag
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Her name is Holly Reece and her kennel is Holly's Kennel which used to be in Islip, NY but I think she may have moved.
dobermansoflongisland
She refuses to test her breeding dogs for Wobblers even though the one she sold me has Wobblers. It's so horrible to think she won't even test them and is going to continue to sell these puppies knowing they could be horribly sick!
There's only one definitive test for Wobblers-a myelogram. This is an extremely high risk test, one that's only done on affected dogs immediately prior to surgery. Myelograms can cause seizures and a variety of other ugly side effects, it's nothing anyone would ever use for a dog with no symptoms.

I'm sorry you're going through this with your puppy. From a moral standpoint, I think your money should be refunded. But a lot depends on your sales contract and whether there was any health guarantee.

Most of the time testicles descend into the scrotum by 6 weeks of age or so. But the cords on some testicles are too short, and this becomes a problem as the puppy grows-some puppies can appear to have two normal testicles at 8 weeks, then one day one or both is gone. So no one can really say that for sure this breeder knew she was selling you a uniball.

Neutering is a must for a dog with an undescended testicle, leaving it in the body can lead to the testicle becoming cancerous. This kind of neuter is more invasive than the standard neuter, but no more invasive than spaying a bitch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Murreydobe; There's only one definitive test for Wobblers-a myelogram. This is an extremely high risk test, one that's only done on affected dogs immediately prior to surgery. Myelograms can cause seizures and a variety of other ugly side effects, it's nothing anyone would ever use for a dog with no symptoms.

Most of the time testicles descend into the scrotum by 6 weeks of age or so. But the cords on some testicles are too short, and this becomes a problem as the puppy grows-some puppies can appear to have two normal testicles at 8 weeks, then one day one or both is gone. So no one can really say that for sure this breeder knew she was selling you a uniball.

The neurologists words: It is definitely genetic. Most likely Wobblers. Feel free to call her if you'd like.
Shelton VCA Shoreline Veterinary Referral and Emergency Center

I told her about the testicle when I took my puppy to his first visit less than a week from buying him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The neurologist mentioned both approaches and did steer me away from the first one because of complications. The MRI was recommended.
Right now we have no choice but to sit back and watch him. Now I am angry that she has denied any wrong doing and is avoiding me entirely.
 

· Sea Hag
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BUT genetic nonetheless and that's my point. What's your point?
Well..my point kinda was that there really isn't a way to screen breeding stock effectively for these kinds of problems.

I think it's sad you and your puppy are in this predicament. The breeder probably can be blamed for many things. She should be standing behind the puppy she produced that has a problem and helping you.

But I don't think you can blame her for not testing the parents of your puppy for wobblers when there isn't a way to do that. Asymptomatic animals are asymptomatic animals-you can't tell which might develop wobblers later in life or who might produce it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well..my point kinda was that there really isn't a way to screen breeding stock effectively for these kinds of problems.

I think it's sad you and your puppy are in this predicament. The breeder probably can be blamed for many things. She should be standing behind the puppy she produced that has a problem and helping you.

But I don't think you can blame her for not testing the parents of your puppy for wobblers when there isn't a way to do that. Asymptomatic animals are asymptomatic animals-you can't tell which might develop wobblers later in life or who might produce it.

Well I wouldn't have known there wasn't a test because she hasn't responded. Had she said that, I wouldn't have made that comment. And I did not blame her for my puppy being sick until she bailed. If you go back and read from the beginning, I choose to keep him anyway. I only asked for the money to put it towards his treatment, which is more than fair.
My tension with you is that you responded exactly the way she did. Even after the neurologist gave a diagnosis. "How do you know it's Wobblers?" "The testicle could have retracted." When I have clearly stated that I kept in touch with her during everything and informed her immediately and the EXPERT said is was most likely Wobblers. I didn't even know what that was. But you apparently know more through these little comments.
And again I say, the puppy was sick from the very beginning. I chose to keep him anyway. Giving him back to a woman who won't provide a refund for a sick puppy that she produced would make me a bit hesitant to believe that she would then turn around and give it expensive treatment and not euthanize him instead.
 

· sufferin succotash
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I know you are upset, with every right to be but Murrey is only trying to help you. She is very experienced with Dobermans, decades in this breed. Can we not be so snarky?


Well I wouldn't have known there wasn't a test because she hasn't responded. Had she said that, I wouldn't have made that comment. And I did not blame her for my puppy being sick until she bailed. If you go back and read from the beginning, I choose to keep him anyway. I only asked for the money to put it towards his treatment, which is more than fair.
My tension with you is that you responded exactly the way she did. Even after the neurologist gave a diagnosis. "How do you know it's Wobblers?" "The testicle could have retracted." When I have clearly stated that I kept in touch with her during everything and informed her immediately and the EXPERT said is was most likely Wobblers. I didn't even know what that was. But you apparently know more through these little comments.
And again I say, the puppy was sick from the very beginning. I chose to keep him anyway. Giving him back to a woman who won't provide a refund for a sick puppy that she produced would make me a bit hesitant to believe that she would then turn around and give it expensive treatment and not euthanize him instead.
 

· Sea Hag
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Well I wouldn't have known there wasn't a test because she hasn't responded. Had she said that, I wouldn't have made that comment. And I did not blame her for my puppy being sick until she bailed. If you go back and read from the beginning, I choose to keep him anyway. I only asked for the money to put it towards his treatment, which is more than fair.
My tension with you is that you responded exactly the way she did. Even after the neurologist gave a diagnosis. "How do you know it's Wobblers?" "The testicle could have retracted." When I have clearly stated that I kept in touch with her during everything and informed her immediately and the EXPERT said is was most likely Wobblers. I didn't even know what that was. But you apparently know more through these little comments.
And again I say, the puppy was sick from the very beginning. I chose to keep him anyway. Giving him back to a woman who won't provide a refund for a sick puppy that she produced would make me a bit hesitant to believe that she would then turn around and give it expensive treatment and not euthanize him instead.
Don't get me wrong here-your breeder sounds like a total skank, and I hate to be in the position of defending her in any way whatsoever. I think we're both in agreement-she SHOULD be concerned about her puppy, and doing what she could to help right now, including refunding your purchase price. There's enough blame here for her as it is right in this area.

She *probably* knew your puppy had an undescended testicle. But I've seen puppies who had two in the scotum one day, then just a few days later one had disappeared, never to be seen again. So that can and does happen.
That's all I was saying-it's a possibility.

She probably would have euthanized your puppy if you'd returned him. Sometimes that's really what's best for the puppy, depending on what's wrong with it. Life at all costs really isn't fair if quality of life is going to be compromised. But again-without knowing for sure what's wrong with your puppy, I'm not saying he *should* be pts, just saying that's it's not always wrong to put an animal with a serious medical problem to sleep.

I wish you luck with your puppy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I know you are upset, with every right to be but Murrey is only trying to help you. She is very experienced with Dobermans, decades in this breed. Can we not be so snarky?
I had to google "snarky." But I fit that to the tee right now. I'm falling apart. She sounds jus like Holly. You can have the proof right there and still the "How do you know...?" And right now I don't feel very good about breeders.
Our puppy doesn't look good at all and I saw a few videos about the disease. No, I'm not 100% sure its wobblers, but he sure has the symptoms!
We are going nuts trying to figure out how to get the money together so we run the tests so then we can help him from deteriorating. You can't imagine how we feel. So those comments did not come across as trying to help.
 

· Sea Hag
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I had to google "snarky." But I fit that to the tee right now. I'm falling apart. She sounds jus like Holly. You can have the proof right there and still the "How do you know...?" And right now I don't feel very good about breeders.
Our puppy doesn't look good at all and I saw a few videos about the disease. No, I'm not 100% sure its wobblers, but he sure has the symptoms!
We are going nuts trying to figure out how to get the money together so we run the tests so then we can help him from deteriorating. You can't imagine how we feel. So those comments did not come across as trying to help.
There's an organization called Special Needs Dobermans that helps with funding for dobes with serious medical problems. I'd suggest you contact them and see if they'll take your boy into their program.

Special Needs Dobermans - Helping Owned AND Rescue Dobes!
 
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