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Discussion Starter #1
Hey everyone,
2 weeks ago I posted regarding some bladder issues we were having (http://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-corner/59317-6-months-old-incontinent.html). The vet put her on Clavamox for 2 weeks and we did a recheck of the urine, again. There is still significant amounts of blood in it. He is concerned about stones or an Ectopic ureter.
We are going to do an ultrasound, today and he said to check the ureter requires going to the specialist and at least $1000. Ugh!

Is there anything else you guys would check? Also, If it is a stone I know he is going to push for a prescription diet. I HATE science diet, I cant stand the idea of feeding it to her. I also understand that the diet for a stone is very low protein, is this OK for a 6 month old puppy? does anyone know of any good resources that I could read regarding how to properly feed a dog with bladder stones so that I could potentially find an alternative to science diet?

Of course I will ask the vets (yes, we are seeing multiple, today) all these questions but I figured I would try and come prepared with your input, as well.

Thanks guys!
 

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They probably need to culture the urine to see what kind of bacteria is in there so they can prescribe the right antibiotic. Sounds like it could be a bad UTI - Good luck & keep us posted.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Just got back from the vet. Her ultrasound was normal so no stones. He did note that her vagina was very immature and he wants to try giving her Diethylstilbestrol (estrogen) to help stimulate it to develop quicker. Has anyone heard of this?

She will be going in for Cystocentesis next week for a culture. The only antibiotics left to try for her infection aren't exactly the safest, so we want to make triple sure its worth giving them to her. On that topic, the only abnormality in her urine is the increased RBC, there dont appear to be any WBC. Wouldn't there be WBC if there was an infection?

not really sure where to go from here. guess we will wait and see what the culture says.

PS- I know people have suggested a culture in the past, but it wasnt feasible since she had been on antibiotics so recently, which is why we hadnt tried it yet. We were hoping this last round would clear it up. Obviously that didnt work. :(
 

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Just got back from the vet. Her ultrasound was normal so no stones. He did note that her vagina was very immature and he wants to try giving her Diethylstilbestrol (estrogen) to help stimulate it to develop quicker. Has anyone heard of this?

She will be going in for Cystocentesis next week for a culture. The only antibiotics left to try for her infection aren't exactly the safest, so we want to make triple sure its worth giving them to her. On that topic, the only abnormality in her urine is the increased RBC, there dont appear to be any WBC. Wouldn't there be WBC if there was an infection?

not really sure where to go from here. guess we will wait and see what the culture says.

PS- I know people have suggested a culture in the past, but it wasnt feasible since she had been on antibiotics so recently, which is why we hadnt tried it yet. We were hoping this last round would clear it up. Obviously that didnt work. :(
I missed if you have said whether or not she is spayed. If she is not, than coming into season is what causes the genitalia to mature. If she is not spayed, I would take a pass on the DES and just wait for nature to take it's course.

Was a sterile urine sample not taken today because she has been on meds too recently?

Have you tried combining cranberry capsules with antibiotics? Sometimes, that proves more effective. I like Solaray CranActin (the original formula with the least stuff in it), one cap twice a day and then once a day for maintanance if she is seeming prone to get UTI's. Also, either probiotics (I like iFlora, one cap an hour before meals twice a day, again the plainest formula) or some kefir daily while she is on antibiotics and for a few weeks after.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks!
She is not spayed and I am really worried about the effects of DES on her growth and development. I have not found anything that supports using it in this way. One of my concerns is, might the DES cause premature closing of her growth plates?

I will look for the cranberry supplement you suggested. I want to wait until we take the urine sample, on Tuesday, before giving her anything new so I dont cause a false negative or any skewed results. she already gets daily probiotics.
 

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Thanks!
She is not spayed and I am really worried about the effects of DES on her growth and development. I have not found anything that supports using it in this way. One of my concerns is, might the DES cause premature closing of her growth plates?
I don't really know what the side effects of using DES for this might be, or if it would accomplish the goal... I also have never heard of using it for this. Since she is not spayed, I see no reason to hasten the process when it will simply take care of itself given a couple few months, provided she is left intact to come into season. I am confused by your vet seeming to think that her genitalia are immature and need "help"... is he recommending spaying now, and assuming that she never will come into season?
 

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My dog has a nerve injury/disease that is famous for constant bladder infections....I've had him on cranberry since this all started 3 years. To this date, he has NEVER had a single infection (knock on wood). Also...my Vet had me start giving him Dasuquin....Glucosimine/Condroiton/MSM for his hips. My Vet told me that Glucosimine/Condroiton is also good for bladder health. It helps the bladder shed dead cells...and therefore lessens the chance for infection....

p
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Since she is not spayed, I see no reason to hasten the process when it will simply take care of itself given a couple few months, provided she is left intact to come into season. I am confused by your vet seeming to think that her genitalia are immature and need "help"... is he recommending spaying now, and assuming that she never will come into season?
To be honest, I am kind of confused about this, too. I was hoping someone on this board had heard of using DES, in this fashion, before. I have told him that I wasnt planning to spay her, right away. He of course is a vet and they all push for 6 month spays. I asked him, "wouldn't it be better just to wait a few months, she should start puberty, soon." and he responded that he thought it was better to start this right away. Then of course an emergency came in and he had to attend to that. I called back later and asked if he had any reference material, but he was still swamped with patients.

Apparently he has heard people have success with it at conferences and CE classes but I cant find anything in the medical journal databases regarding using DES in immature, intact bitches or for UTI's. I did see one mention of using it in a spayed adult female's with chronic Vaginitis but these are dogs who never went through puberty, naturally. Even the insert that accompanies the medication says for use with spayed female dogs.

I havent gone over to pick up the meds yet. I am very nervous about it. Maybe he knows of some cutting edge research that just isnt out yet and I hate to not do everything to help my little girl. but I also dont want to harm her.
 

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Can you get the second opinion?

Did you see the full urine analysis results?
Does your vet check for PH level or crystals in her urine before ultrasound?
Alkaline urine may form crystals and then stones... but your puppy is only 6 months old.

If her urine is alkaline you may work to increase acidity. I was adding ACV to my dog food to balance PH with good results. Kefir is good too.

I am always cautious to give strong medications to a puppy. They are growing and their system may correct issues on its own. I understand your concern.
Good luck to make a right decision and hugs to your girl :)
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Did you see the full urine analysis results?
Does your vet check for PH level or crystals in her urine before ultrasound?
I saw the first one and the second was run by a very good friend and skilled technician, so I believe her when she says everything was normal. The pH on the initial UA was 6.0 so not all that alkaline and no crystals were seen, either.

The only anomalies are a higher then normal specific gravity (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) and the high amount of red blood cells.
 

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Now I wonder why your vet was looking for bladder stones. PH 6 is normal.
High RBC can be present due to trama or infection. Inflammation of the bladder walls allows for shedding RBC into urine.... but she was taking antibiotics and it didn't help.

Did you request the full blood panel?
 
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To be honest, I am kind of confused about this, too. I was hoping someone on this board had heard of using DES, in this fashion, before. I have told him that I wasnt planning to spay her, right away. He of course is a vet and they all push for 6 month spays. I asked him, "wouldn't it be better just to wait a few months, she should start puberty, soon." and he responded that he thought it was better to start this right away. Then of course an emergency came in and he had to attend to that. I called back later and asked if he had any reference material, but he was still swamped with patients.

Apparently he has heard people have success with it at conferences and CE classes but I cant find anything in the medical journal databases regarding using DES in immature, intact bitches or for UTI's. I did see one mention of using it in a spayed adult female's with chronic Vaginitis but these are dogs who never went through puberty, naturally. Even the insert that accompanies the medication says for use with spayed female dogs.

I havent gone over to pick up the meds yet. I am very nervous about it. Maybe he knows of some cutting edge research that just isnt out yet and I hate to not do everything to help my little girl. but I also dont want to harm her.
She's your dog. You should spay her if and when you decide... it is not your vet's decision. The more I read and learn, the less I like the idea of pediatric speuters... maybe, the less I like the idea of speutering, at all.

I poked around a little, and I gotta say I would not probably consent to give a puppy bitch I owned DES. Messing around with the endocrine system is serious business, and scary. I think your inclination to allow her to mature naturally is a far better and safer plan.
 

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So, now I am back to square 1. The urine culture came back with no bacteria or sign of infection. So now I have a dog with hematuria with no stones and no UTI. Any ideas what to check next?
 

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I don't have any information to help you however I do want to say I'm sorry that your baby is having to gothrough this. I do agree with the other poster. Spay when you are ready, it is your decision.
 

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So, now I am back to square 1. The urine culture came back with no bacteria or sign of infection. So now I have a dog with hematuria with no stones and no UTI. Any ideas what to check next?
Get a second opinion...

I have a lot of knowledge on DES since my mother was given this drug to prevent miscarriage in 1970. I was born in 1971, the year they discontinued it.

I really cannot believe your vet...I do not know all the facts, but I would run for the hills.

I would wait at least a year if not more to allow her to develop before spaying her. Just be extremely careful not to allow her become pregnant. It all depends on your situation.

Blood in urine can be a sign of bladder cancer. I do not want to alarm you because there can be other causes. My mother had blood in urine when it became too acidic from tomatos or orange juice. Her condition was serious and would have limited time to get to hospital as told by physicians. Try changing her diet. Give her grain-free food such as Instinct brand...comes it both wet and dry food. Raw milk is an excellent choice if you have access to it. No regular milk.
 
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