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Hello all, it has been awhile. I have been busy writing (working on a trilogy) and also training Panzer.
Panzer has had many problems, but has come a long way. I thank god for giving us the strength to continue helping him as he spent his entire life in an outdoor kennel with MANY dogs and he was the ONLY dobie.
Sine we have worked with him, we found that he is very intelligent, has beautiful confirmation and shows to be an excellent example for a dobreman.
Our mako comes with an impressive pedigree and we kept her intact in case we found another great dog to possibly breed her with. Last year we did find one, but I backed out because the pet ads were overwhelmed and I did not want to bring more dogs in the world with so many homeless.
We had a change of heart since Panzer joined us and the death of my parents dog, who they got from my brother who since has passed on from chicken pox that sadly he contracted from his kids (those poor kids who may blame themselves). My parents live upstate NY 80 They own a koi farm etc. In essence, dog heaven. My mother to say the least is MOM and she takes the best care of her pets, I am jealous, I wished I had the same level of care lol. Anyway she absolutely adores my Mako and now Panzer. She wants a dog from us, sentimental I am certain of because of her recent loss. I have had many people stop and ask if we planned to breed, I always said I doubt it. However, I have 7 certain homes with possibly a number more.
Long story short, the guy we purchased from lied. He said he would mail his papers and told me yesterday he sent them a month ago blah,blah they umm were sent back—yea right. I asked if he was registered or were they puppy papers “yes mam he is registered. I then told him some people confuse puppy papers with the actual registration and if he sent that form in. Noooo. I told him that he needs to send them in and pay. He is over a year and will have to pay an additional fee. Conclusion he says, well you cant breed him because the box is checked! Mako went into heat early, yesterday. The guy wont talk. Lawyers won’t touch, not enough money. I would have to drive to Columbia. Ohh he did say we can bring him back, but needed to do so today. I told him you know I live in Myrtle Beach. I will on the weekend (I wont get rid of him). His response was “I am not here for your convenience. You said you would neuter him. I said eventually yes, but I may breed him to my girl. I told him also when we got him, the dog had never been in a house. He lied about that as well, but I knew better and that was why he sold him so cheap. 300$ is not cheap for an intact male that cannot produce eligible puppies, esp with all his issues.
I am a wreck. Help?

Please for those of you who are sensitive to this type of breeding, please understand. I would not have considered this if I thought he was less than superior. His vet even complimented.
 

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If I had a nickel for every time someone has posted on the internet that their vet told them they had the best Doberman he had ever seen, I would be rich by now. Sometimes it's also added that the vet should know because he himself has bred Dobermans for 30 years. I don't know what it is about vets saying that to people. I have seen that said about dogs who were in no way superior specimens. I don't think vets as a rule have that much knoweldge of breed standards that they would be a good source for that information.

You mentioned that the male is "over a year", does that mean he is not yet two? If so he is too young to breed, because he can't have his hips OFA certified for one thing until he is two years old. You don't mention any other health testing that he has had? What about the bitch?

And I know from experience of breeders I have known that "certain" homes have a definite tendency to melt away when the puppies actually arrive.
 

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It is a funny thing about some vet's. The vet I worked for had a Golden Retriver and she had pups because he wanted his kids to see the miracle of birth. This guy was a great vet, but man oh man I lost a lot of respect for him after that. Sometimes we hold Vet's in such high regard but we should remember they to are human and that their personal opinions sometimes get in the way of good judgement.
SeaNemesis, have you shown Mako at all?
 

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Some of your story is hard to follow, but what I get out of it is that the dog was sold to you as a pet with a limited registration.......but you don't have the papers yet. The vet thinks that they are nice, and they have a good pedigree.

IMHO, if he was sold to you as a pet, then the breeder never intended for him to be bred.........I think you need to honor that and neuter him. The breeder does owe you his papers but some of them will not send them till they have proof of spay/neuter....... I don't know if this is true in your case or not. I would be interested in knowing who the breeder was and the pedigree.

MicDobe said it all with the comment about vets and breed standards. Unless that vet exhibits and studies a breed, he is not an expert on what makes a breed worthy dog of any breed. I love my vet - he is a great vet! But he would not know a great Doberman from a nice pet if it bit him in the hiney.

The comment about having 7 homes lined up might work out and might not. The rescue I do some volunteer work for has had a heck of a time placing a large litter of puppies that were born in rescue. All those people who said that they wanted a puppy just melted away when it actually came time to do it. They are pretty nice puppies too - not show quality by any stretch but they will be nice looking pets.

Then, your responsibility does not end when you take the money for them - it is a life long committment to those puppies.

Then there is the cost of breeding a litter. If all your parents want is a nice Doberman like yours, you can probably go out and buy them one ......or heck even 2 or 3 for what it might cost you to produce and raise that litter.

I'm not being mean or sarcastic in this post - just very truthful. I don't think you are considering breeding lightly, but I do think you are considering it without knowing what you are getting into.
 
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I agree with everything everyone else has said...also like velmadobe said...
the dog was sold to you as a pet with a limited registration
Duchess has a limited registration...and it specifically says on her Akc papers something like that Any puppies produced by this dog will not be able to be registered by the AKC. Therefore, the puppies you produce would not be able to have papers or AKC anything.
I also agree that this is a long term thing...just tell your mother to find a dog from a reputable breeder...that can provide much healthier and sound puppies than you can.
 

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Just my 2 cents.
You start your post saying that Panzer has many problems. Now, I realize those problems may be a result of his limited socialization from living in a kennel - however, that may just be part of his problem. Do you really want to possibly pass his problems on to future progeny?
7 homes lined up? That tells me there are 7 families out there looking for a Dobe and 7 potential dogs that can be saved from shelters and rescues. What better way to honor this breed that saving as many as possible?
Look at the problems that you're having getting Panzer's papers as fate telling you the breeding isn't meant to be.
 

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I agree w/ alot of the posts

If he was sold on a limited reg.. then you should honor that. Vets don't know the standard of every breed.
velmadobe said:
Some of your story is hard to follow, but what I get out of it is that the dog was sold to you as a pet with a limited registration.......but you don't have the papers yet. The vet thinks that they are nice, and they have a good pedigree.

IMHO, if he was sold to you as a pet, then the breeder never intended for him to be bred.........I think you need to honor that and neuter him. The breeder does owe you his papers but some of them will not send them till they have proof of spay/neuter....... I don't know if this is true in your case or not. I would be interested in knowing who the breeder was and the pedigree.

MicDobe said it all with the comment about vets and breed standards. Unless that vet exhibits and studies a breed, he is not an expert on what makes a breed worthy dog of any breed. I love my vet - he is a great vet! But he would not know a great Doberman from a nice pet if it bit him in the hiney.

The comment about having 7 homes lined up might work out and might not. The rescue I do some volunteer work for has had a heck of a time placing a large litter of puppies that were born in rescue. All those people who said that they wanted a puppy just melted away when it actually came time to do it. They are pretty nice puppies too - not show quality by any stretch but they will be nice looking pets.

Then, your responsibility does not end when you take the money for them - it is a life long committment to those puppies.

Then there is the cost of breeding a litter. If all your parents want is a nice Doberman like yours, you can probably go out and buy them one ......or heck even 2 or 3 for what it might cost you to produce and raise that litter.

I'm not being mean or sarcastic in this post - just very truthful. I don't think you are considering breeding lightly, but I do think you are considering it without knowing what you are getting into.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
If some of my story came across unclear, please accept my apologies, I was devistated at the time for the mountain of lies that came barreling down upon my shoulders.. I was told that panzer was fully registered without mention of the box being checked etc. He proceeded to tell me that he does indeed have health testing of Panzer and both of his parents. Mako was health tested about 1.5 years (she is 4 years 3 months). I have not shown her because I am a full time writer and have 2 childern, one with Aspergers,( personally I do not feel a dog needs to be shown to prove that he or she is worthy to breed) I have also been working with socialization and obedience with Panzer and he has proceeded wonderfully.
Mako's sire has been shown, but the dam has not, but her parents, both have. I have a huge file of documents containing copies of their awards,pedigrees and their health testing, etc.The breeder we purchased her from was very organized and supplied plenty of documentation.
Thank-you for the micobe for informing me about the age for OFA testing, again I was lied to by the previous owner. These dogs will not breed. I feel dogs like(unregisterd) this are unfortunately vulnerable to attracting buyers who may purchase these dogs for unfavorable reasons. I apologize for my post, but I was overwhelmed and lied to and ripped off. It is in the case of my brother-in-law and his firm partner. He should have not sold this dog and lied the way he did, especially about the akc boxed being checked and that he was not health tested, there is much more to it as well, lies.... In a positive note I was told the dog was fortunate to join our family as others probably would not have been able to assist him with inside home living. I am proud to say he has done great with obedience,but he still has work yet. He will be neutered now and I have decided I am not ready to stress myself with breeding her. I had not found a stud yet who had been health tested ( after 3 years). My vet informed we can alter her now, but since she is in heat it is tougher. Looks like I will have to keep them separated and mako in diapers. This was an unexpected bombshell that drained me temporarily emotionly. I do hope that you can understand and not be so judgemental. I am not irresponcible and I have been a long time supporter of rescue groups, by taking in fosters and donating enough funds to raise a couple of eyebrows. For those of you that came across strongly,but for the love of the breed,please understand that I am highly educated and would not consider throwing 2 "just" dobermans together. Mako is over 4 years. I believe if my objective was for the money I would have bred her.
I joined the group here because I found you all to be very pleasant,welcoming and sharing. I am certain most of you if not all have smashed obstacles that were emotionaly compromising. Maybe you can understand if you read the whole thread a bit more too. I think most of us here at one time or another needed a little support from outside. Thank-you for reading this post and I am feeling better nowafter passage of a few hours and implimenting a plan.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hero's Mom said:
If he was sold on a limited reg.. then you should honor that. Vets don't know the standard of every breed.
He was not sold that way, I was lied to. I understand completely the limited registration. I understand that to many this is a sensitive issue, but please for a moment try to understand that I am not just making dobermans, just to do it. Some of you are familiar with me and hopefully understand that, I am a little more sophisticated than to stoop to such irresponcible breeding.
 

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SeaNemesis PM is on it's way to you

Look for it
SeaNemesis said:
He was not sold that way, I was lied to. I understand completely the limited registration. I understand that to many this is a sensitive issue, but please for a moment try to understand that I am not just making dobermans, just to do it. Some of you are familiar with me and hopefully understand that, I am a little more sophisticated than to stoop to such irresponcible breeding.
 

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I'm just going to add a big "me too" regarding vets and breeding and knowledge of conformation. My vet is wonderful, and she's had a few other really wonderful vets work for her at the clinic that I attend over the course of the years. I've been involved with this breed for 25 years, showing and trialing, etc. My vet and the vets who have worked for her do NOT know the difference between a pet Doberman and a breeding quality Doberman. Sometimes I hold onto a pet for whatever reason, and I guess because they are mine and they are well behaved in the office and seem to have a nice temperament, they automatically assume it's breeding quality. They'll oooh and ahhh over them and tell me how beautiful it is and I'll be thinking are they crazy? They may be great vets but they are not judges of conformation or quality breeding.

It truly makes me wonder how many other people get talked to like this and come away thinking they've got something special. And I don't mean that pets aren't special, just that they aren't necessarily breeding quality but people don't understand that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I erred greatly by mentioning my vets compliments of my dog. My vet DID not encourage breeding. He just admired my dog only as a doberman owner himself. I was a nurse and understand that physicians are NOT gods and are mostly uneducated especially regarding diets, therapeutic treatmenst etc, such as I feel vets are lacking knowledge in multiple areas that many people mistakenly think they do know. They are not professionals in breed standards,confirmation and many the health testing, etc. If you read my whole thread you would have realized this. Please take a moment and read all of my replies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I am not sure if some of you are not reading all of my threads or just part of them from some of the responses on here. I did have Mako health tested by choice, I was lied to about Panzer and was told he did have health testing etc and found out yesterday he was not and that his boxed was checked among other lies.
However, there are many people that are happy to purchase a dog/puppy that looks healthy and that have been whelped from healthy parents and if they know the grandparents health history as well.
The fixation that disturbs me is that some people get excessively reactive about health testing. Should people get health screening before conception? Will health testing assure that your dog will NEVER get a serious problem, illness, cancer etc? Is it achievable to acquire a healthy dog without the testing or will they all be ghastly? I commend those who do health testing, thank-you for your time, expenses and producing dogs with certificates for those that are interested and find it important to have health testing. This is the first dog that I did get health testing on. I have fostered a few dogs that were pregnant in the pasts, some pure breeds, some mutts. There are owners that still contact me and proudly tell me stories of their loving pets.



What had me understandably upset yesterday was because I was lied to so greatly. I was lied too.. Would you have been upset as well?
 

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SeaNemesis said:
I am not sure if some of you are not reading all of my threads or just part of them from some of the responses on here. I did have Mako health tested by choice, I was lied to about Panzer and was told he did have health testing etc and found out yesterday he was not and that his boxed was checked among other lies.
However, there are many people that are happy to purchase a dog/puppy that looks healthy and that have been whelped from healthy parents and if they know the grandparents health history as well.
The fixation that disturbs me is that some people get excessively reactive about health testing. Should people get health screening before conception? Will health testing assure that your dog will NEVER get a serious problem, illness, cancer etc? Is it achievable to acquire a healthy dog without the testing or will they all be ghastly? I commend those who do health testing, thank-you for your time, expenses and producing dogs with certificates for those that are interested and find it important to have health testing. This is the first dog that I did get health testing on. I have fostered a few dogs that were pregnant in the pasts, some pure breeds, some mutts. There are owners that still contact me and proudly tell me stories of their loving pets.



What had me understandably upset yesterday was because I was lied to so greatly. I was lied too.. Would you have been upset as well?
I understand that you are upset about being lied to, but for us the bottom line is that you are/were thinking of breeding two dogs that most likely should not be bred for various reasons. For most of us, the dogs come first - not the owners feelings. That is just the way it is. I did read all of your posts, and sorry, but they are still confusing to me.
 

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SeaNemesis said:
I am not sure if some of you are not reading all of my threads or just part of them from some of the responses on here. I did have Mako health tested by choice, I was lied to about Panzer and was told he did have health testing etc and found out yesterday he was not and that his boxed was checked among other lies.
However, there are many people that are happy to purchase a dog/puppy that looks healthy and that have been whelped from healthy parents and if they know the grandparents health history as well.
The fixation that disturbs me is that some people get excessively reactive about health testing. Should people get health screening before conception? Will health testing assure that your dog will NEVER get a serious problem, illness, cancer etc? Is it achievable to acquire a healthy dog without the testing or will they all be ghastly? I commend those who do health testing, thank-you for your time, expenses and producing dogs with certificates for those that are interested and find it important to have health testing. This is the first dog that I did get health testing on. I have fostered a few dogs that were pregnant in the pasts, some pure breeds, some mutts. There are owners that still contact me and proudly tell me stories of their loving pets.

What had me understandably upset yesterday was because I was lied to so greatly. I was lied too.. Would you have been upset as well?
I am glad that you do not plan on breeding :)
I'm not attacking your posts, I did read them through all the way, but I want to clarify, No health testing does not guarentee that the resulting offspring will not get cancer etc. BUT it does provide knowledge that you are putting together two dogs that are clear of hip or elbow dysplasia, bleeding disorders, hypothyroidism, or progressive retinal atrophy as to give the puppies the best chance possible at a long pain free life. I believe they can test for PRA at 12 months, but the dysplasias not until 2 years. I think any planned pooch deserves that much.
 

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SeaNemesis,

I know that some of the things that are said when someone talks about breeding any two Dobermans sometimes seems harsh and I also realize that some of us seem to be entirely fixated on health issues, proving breeding quality in the show ring and the things that have all been talked about in response to your original post.

VelmaDog has it in a nutshell--it's all about the dogs. I don't know how long you have had Dobermans but I'm approaching 50 years in the breed and was around when the Doberman went from a fairly uncommon breed to number 2 in AKC registrations. It was horrible--Dobes which were rarely seen in rescues, shelters or various animal control facilities turned up in huge numbers. That was in the 70's. We still see the effects of it today.

Most (and I show my dogs--most of them are champions with working titles) dogs should not be bred. I don't breed mine. One male of mine has been used at stud in the last 30 years. I'm sorry you were lied to but I'm actually quite relieved that the breeders are using the limited registration choice.

Enjoy your dogs--don't breed them. Let the people who want Dobes see what is out there in the shelters or go to experienced, reliable breeders for dogs--there are fewer and fewer home for all dogs--not just Dobermans. Breeding should really not be a learn as you go process.
 

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TracyJo said:
You start your post saying that Panzer has many problems. Now, I realize those problems may be a result of his limited socialization from living in a kennel - however, that may just be part of his problem. Do you really want to possibly pass his problems on to future progeny?
7 homes lined up? That tells me there are 7 families out there looking for a Dobe and 7 potential dogs that can be saved from shelters and rescues. What better way to honor this breed that saving as many as possible?
Look at the problems that you're having getting Panzer's papers as fate telling you the breeding isn't meant to be.
I really think this and the others were wonderful posts and give you a lot to think about regarding byb'ing, health testing, titles, how "homes" fall thru, etc.
Regardless of if Panzer's problems were his environment, he has issues and problems and IMO dogs like that should not be bred.
Enjoy him as the pet he is, get him fixed for health reasons, you didn't get him for breeding and he should not be bred anyway.

Direct the 7 homes to rescue Dobes, that would be a wonderful tribute and a great way to honor the breed. I love that idea.

The supply of Dobes out in the world exceeds the demand unfortunately, so unless the Dobes are bettering the breed, have titles on both ends (CH. performance/temperament titles), and have been thru several health tests and those results came back great, you really have to question why breed the dogs in question. You already knew this as you said yourself how many Dobe puppies are out there already...
Even show litters have pets in every litter, breeding just pets is not a valid excuse, as pets are born in every Dobe litter.
Not saying this to be mean, you seem like a wonderful pet owner and good person, just trying to be truthful.
 
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SeaNemesis said:
I am not sure if some of you are not reading all of my threads or just part of them from some of the responses on here. I did have Mako health tested by choice, I was lied to about Panzer and was told he did have health testing etc and found out yesterday he was not and that his boxed was checked among other lies.
However, there are many people that are happy to purchase a dog/puppy that looks healthy and that have been whelped from healthy parents and if they know the grandparents health history as well.
The fixation that disturbs me is that some people get excessively reactive about health testing. Should people get health screening before conception? Will health testing assure that your dog will NEVER get a serious problem, illness, cancer etc? Is it achievable to acquire a healthy dog without the testing or will they all be ghastly? I commend those who do health testing, thank-you for your time, expenses and producing dogs with certificates for those that are interested and find it important to have health testing. This is the first dog that I did get health testing on. I have fostered a few dogs that were pregnant in the pasts, some pure breeds, some mutts. There are owners that still contact me and proudly tell me stories of their loving pets.



What had me understandably upset yesterday was because I was lied to so greatly. I was lied too.. Would you have been upset as well?
Something that is key here, IMO, is that people who are knowledgeable enough to be breeding Dobermans are also people who are knowledgeable enough not to be lied to when purchasing Dobermans. It's really that simple. We don't just blindly take people's word. We ask for and receive the health clearances before we make purchases when we are dealing with reputable and responsible people. We look up what we are told in the various health databases and ensure it's in place. We also know enough to get the registration at the time of purchase.

As I understand it, Panzer is one year old. There is very little health testing that could have been done. I'm sorry, but you didn't know this. Not knowing key elements about dogs like this leads experienced people to believe you do not have the knowledge to be breeding dogs at this time.

You brought people and babies into this - should they be health tested? The simple fact here is that people are not selling their babies. When one plans a litter, it is a given that puppies will be sold / placed into other homes. Therefore, the burden is on the breeder to try to ensure that they have done the best they can to provide a healthy puppy. People and babies and breeders and puppies are apples and oranges. That said, there certainly are couples who do undergo certain health screenings before conception and I think that is also a responsible thing to do.

You ask "Will health testing assure that your dog will NEVER get a serious problem, illness, cancer etc?"

We know that certain health tests and breeding decisions can completely eliminate certain problems like the vWD DNA test. We know that having hips evaluated for hip dysplasia and making sound decisions in that area has greatly reduced the incidences of hip dysplasia in certain breeds - there are stats proving this on the OFA site. No, health testing will not ensure your dog will never get a serious problem but it does reduce the risk and eliminate the risk of *some* problems.

You ask "Is it achievable to acquire a healthy dog without the testing or will they all be ghastly?". Sure, it's achievable but it's more fluke than anything. If there is no health testing, no one tried. I'd rather deal with someone who tried than someone who wings it. (This is not directed at you, just commenting on the general discussion.)
 
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