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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I got some of the blood work in for Pula tonight via e-mail. I had a full blood panel, cortisol, estradiol, progesterone, full thyroid panel done. I had similar blood work done last time she was acting this way.

CBC and Biochemistry - all within normal limits
Cortisol - 1.2 (1-5 range)

Thyroid panel:
TSH 0.91 (0-0.60) HIGH
T4 1.5 (0.8 - 3.5)
Free T4 16.6 (8 - 40)

Progesterone: <0.2 - very low. not suggestive of pending ovulation.
Estradiol - not in yet. Maybe tomorrow or Thursday.

Her last thyroid panel had higher values, but not super high (will have to go find them). But she was behaving oddly at that time.

Would these thyroid numbers be considered low-normal to any of you in the know? Will be talking to the vet as soon as estradiol comes in.

Thanks. More info will be posted as I know more.

Lisa
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Darkevs for the link. I am hypothyroid myself, so I understand the basic results and how they apply to humans. However, from what I am reading, TSH alone is a poor indicator of hypothyroid in dogs, but combined with a low or low-normal free T4 (not total), it may indicate low thyroid. I guess with that said, I am trying to figure out if her free T4 of 16 (which is below the midpoint) is considered low-normal...

The difficulty for me here is that her weird behaviors have not been all the time. We recently had 2-3 months of "normal" behavior. Good, calm dog, not spooky, working really well in nose work. So, the "apparent" cyclical nature of her behaviors has had me looking at other hormones. I am now wondering if she is starting to show thyroid issues, but combined with some other cyclical stressor (like agility training or something weird that I had not considered).

I wish she could just tell me! :)

Lisa
 
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Let us know what your Vet says!

The only dog I have ever been owned by who even though she was spayed a long time ago still showed cyclical hormonal changes is my Pitbull Pearl........every spring and fall she goes into 'hump' phase and rolls in smelly things.

When this happens..........I always say.........must be Pitbull breeding season again. :)

Hugz to Pula and Spree!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks. I don't and won't jump into any treatments, but it has been very frustrating to try and figure out what is going on with Miss Pula. Will provide an update once the estradiol comes back.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
UPDATED:
Received the thyroid antibody test numbers today when the vet called. 28%. So this combined with the other numbers indicates she is beginning to become hypothyroid. We will discuss whether or not to treat her or wait since she is borderline for treatment. I am inclined to wait 6 months and test again, but she is getting a consult with a specialist.

Now, what is also interesting is that her Estradiol (estrogen) is elevated. For a spayed female, the normal range is 2-15, with dogs in the lower end. Pula was 26.8 (last time her estrogen was 38) - abnormal for a spayed female dog, indicating estrogen is being generated from inside. The specialist consult will cover this as well, but with these numbers, her cyclical behaviors, the guess is some remnant ovarian tissue. Will know more early in the week based on the specialist consult. Her opinion was that if it was her dog, she would do the surgery...BUT, would wait for the specialist opinion.

I received kudos from the vet for continuing to work for a solution...

Thanks for listening. Maybe I am getting closer to helping Pula.

Lisa

So,
 

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I'm glad you are starting to get answers, too.

As far as the thyroid results, I'm personally inclined to treat when they are "low/normal." Dr. Dodds has suggested that low/normal in a Doberman is actually low, I think. Shanoa was borderline, too, and was having symptoms (hair loss) so we elected to treat and she's doing much better.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks. Will know more as soon as I hear back after my vet gets the specialist consult. Then we'll see where to go. But more info is good info.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Update to pula

UPDATED: 05/04/2012

So, consultation with internal medicine and theriogenologist specialists have not gotten us to a solution. What we know is that normal bitches, even spayed ones can have elevated estradiol levels in the range we see with Pula, even without an ovarian remnant. She says that in those cases, the elevated estradiol is related to adrenals.

I did have a cortisol run on her, which was in the normal range, so not sure what that means.

She did not recommend looking for the remnant with surgery, but to do vaginal swabs when we think she is in "in estrus" to look for cornified cells. IF none, then no remnant.

So, currently the specialists are recommending no thyroid treatment (but I want to ask someone else who knows dobermans) and no surgery.

So, no answer yet. If there is someone out there who can recommend a consult on the thyroid who know dobermans, then PLEASE send that info to me via PM. I am looking myself.

I know something is not right.

Lisa
 
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Have you contacted Jean Dodds?
 

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Wow. You have been running a maze trying to figure this out. Pula is fortunate to be in a home that pays attention and tries so hard to help her.

Please keep us updated as you continue to search for answers. You guys are in my thoughts.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I have a consultation with my vet this afternoon. I think we will be looking at ACTH test also, hopefully to rule out adrenal function problems.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Final Update for Now

Decision made to wait 2-3 months and retest her blood work -thyroid and estradiol. After reviewing her symptoms over the last 12 months, blood work, specialists, etc., the most likely belief is that Pula has an ovarian remnant.

Because surgery needs to occur at close as possible to the peak of the estrogen fabrication (so that the tissue is enlarged), we think we are too late this time after working out all the issues.

The reason for the blood work retest is to see what her numbers are when she is not acting this way and hope to see different estradiol. In addition, the thyroid numbers will be rechecked. Since higher estradiol levels (estrus) can impact thyroid uptake, we will are in a wait and see recheck for thyroid as well.

I have seen differences in the past week with her demeanor. A little better focus, a little less spooky, etc. If the cycle repeats, in about 4-6 weeks, she will be much better behaved and then it will return in about Sept/Oct. I have multiple people, including my roommate, neighbor, and training partners, who have noted the behavior change and commented, so at least I can confirm that I was not imaging things.

So, unless something changes, we will do the next testing in early July-ish. Then, if the remnant is there and her behavior changes again, we will go in and do the surgery right away.

Thanks for the support everyone.

Lisa
 
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