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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was looking at a site a friend sent me a link to today, and saw this Doberman bitch with an extremely protruding forechest. Is this a common thing in the breed? Is this preferred over a lack of forechest/terrier front? Or would you take a terrier front over a pigeon chest any day? Is a pigeon chest something that can be tempered by crossing one to a terrier front or regular front? Or will the litter simply have a mixture of both types, but nothing that meets in the middle?

Also, are there any health issues caused by this type of structure?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Picture? A well developed forechest is part of the doberman standard, so just wondered if the particular dog you saw was not correct.
I don't steal pics off other people's sites and certainly don't want to embarrass anyone. Let me see if I can edit the pic so it just shows the chest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Ok, these are obviously show dogs and have enough merit to have titled, but to me the chests look over done. I can't seem to find the particularly alarming photo, but it's similar to the Argentina dog that I think you referred to earlier-only on a female under 1 yr which I thought was alarming since that's not even full grown.

Here are a couple examples I wonder about - overdone or well developed?? Sorry, I'm new and learning. :)





 

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I hate pigeon chests, yes dobes should have a well developed chest but as others have said if it looks like the rear end could float away or if it looks like the dog has a bowling ball under its skin the dog is probably a little over angled. If you look at photos of dobes around in the 70's none of them have these new gigantic fronts..IMHO some of the Argentinian dogs are the worst offenders, they are also monsters height wise.

ps: not sure about breeding it out, I would never breed to a dog with this sort of chest in the first place.
 

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I dont think they are too bad but really, I cant tell unless I see the whole dog and I know you dont wish to post the photos on here.

They look a little "heavy" the second one doesnt it just has that prominent dip. LOTS of Aus dogs with this..
 

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Sea Hag
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Ok, these are obviously show dogs and have enough merit to have titled, but to me the chests look over done. I can't seem to find the particularly alarming photo, but it's similar to the Argentina dog that I think you referred to earlier-only on a female under 1 yr which I thought was alarming since that's not even full grown.

Here are a couple examples I wonder about - overdone or well developed?? Sorry, I'm new and learning. :)





I don't think any of those fronts are particularly overdone. You should see about 3-4" of visible forechest in the ideal.

There definitely are dogs around with way too much forechest, who look like they could tip forward onto their noses at any moment. Not a look I can appreciate at all. Balance and moderation are pretty much everything to me.

As far as I know, there's a difference between a pigeon breast and an overdone front. A pigeon breast is narrow, with a protruding breastbone.
 

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Personally for my taste they are overdone,not the worst offenders but not my fav, my interpretation of the standard for the chest is that it shouldn't be in front of the body anything more than minimally, like nightgrace6 said if you look at the original dobes, especially compared to euro lines now the chest has gotten a bit ridiculous, many euros I see now sit and there is a whole other dog between their legs, it draws focus from the dogs look as a whole imo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I hate pigeon chests, yes dobes should have a well developed chest but as others have said if it looks like the rear end could float away or if it looks like the dog has a bowling ball under its skin the dog is probably a little over angled. If you look at photos of dobes around in the 70's none of them have these new gigantic fronts..IMHO some of the Argentinian dogs are the worst offenders, they are also monsters height wise.

ps: not sure about breeding it out, I would never breed to a dog with this sort of chest in the first place.
Thanks for your response, I don't like lack of balance in any breed. Seeing a dog loaded in the front and then light in the rear reminds me of the studies on how, if Barbie were a real human; she wouldn't be able to walk on two legs. lol
 
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Sea Hag
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Is a pigeon chest something that can be tempered by crossing one to a terrier front or regular front? Or will the litter simply have a mixture of both types, but nothing that meets in the middle?
In most cases, if you're trying to fix one particular trait, you're best advised to breed to a dog who is very correct in that particular area. You don't usually get to "average things out" by breeding two extremes together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
In most cases, if you're trying to fix one particular trait, you're best advised to breed to a dog who is very correct in that particular area. You don't usually get to "average things out" by breeding two extremes together.
That's pretty much what I do in practice, breeding the very correct to the one who needs help. I try to avoid extremes and stick w/ moderation if possible. That's what I want to see in my Dobe breeder's yard as well. Not to say some won't have faults... these are living creatures, but seeing alarming extremes and nothing in between would make me walk. The site I saw though, there are some nice moderate ones here and there, just saw these crazy chests on a few and went, "Woah", These IMO don't quite meet the Pigeon chest definition, but I do feel they are just a tad overdone? I wish I could find the pic I first saw darnit...teach me to wait a whole day before inquiring. lol
 
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That's pretty much what I do in practice, breeding the very correct to the one who needs help.
BTW, I'd not only look for a dog with a very correct front, I'd want to use a proven sire who consistently had produced good fronts. Not all dogs can pass on their virtues to their offspring, and keeping good fronts is just as much of a challenge as getting them to begin with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
BTW, I'd not only look for a dog with a very correct front, I'd want to use a proven sire who consistently had produced good fronts. Not all dogs can pass on their virtues to their offspring, and keeping good fronts is just as much of a challenge as getting them to begin with.
Very true! Now, how do you find all the offspring of a particular male? Some breeders in my breed will only post pics of their show pups as adults. Others are more up front and share pics of both pets and show dogs. I'd like to know that even though some are pets for some reason, that they still have the qualities desired.

Oh, and we do have top 10 dogs who cannot produce better than themselves. It's sad... :-/
 
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I'd agree with Murreydobe that those examples are not that bad - there are certainly far worse out there. For the heck of it, I've added a ringside candid of Jordan when she was about 18 months old - maybe not as much as the examples, but I think she is very balanced (but then again, I may be a bit biased)! :)



Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I'd agree with Murreydobe that those examples are not that bad - there are certainly far worse out there. For the heck of it, I've added a ringside candid of Jordan when she was about 18 months old - maybe not as much as the examples, but I think she is very balanced (but then again, I may be a bit biased)! :)



Jan

She looks fairly well balanced to me, front and rear angulation on the same dog... :) When mature, does the rear angle become less pronounced? I know in some of my dogs that if they are 6-10mos you can see more turn-of-stifle than you do at say 18 or 24. I was shocked to see a 3 yr old pup of mine the other day, he's just one big hunk of muscle and his rear angulation isn't quite as pronounced when standing as it used to be, in motion though it is spot-on :)
 

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I think that the biggest issue with overdone forechests is that they are all too often mistaken for a good front - when in reality the dog may be very straight in front. I see pictures of facebook sometimes with all kinds of people commenting on how nice their front is when I see an overdone forechest and a straight front assembly.... so those big protruding chests seem to fool a lot of people that I can see.

I'd rather see a very moderate forechest with a decent front assembly.

This is a picture of my 7 year old champion bitch - as with most Dobermans out there, she is slightly short in upper arm but has beautiful shoulder layback - has forechest but not too much.
 

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I didn't think the fronts on any of those pictures were too much but you need to see the whole dog to see if there's balance.....
 

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Very true! Now, how do you find all the offspring of a particular male? Some breeders in my breed will only post pics of their show pups as adults. Others are more up front and share pics of both pets and show dogs. I'd like to know that even though some are pets for some reason, that they still have the qualities desired.

Oh, and we do have top 10 dogs who cannot produce better than themselves. It's sad... :-/
Ask them? :) Seriously though that is what I'd do. I'd ask to see pics of an entire litter if possible and see what happens.
 
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