[Okie-dobie]

This is a little long, O.K. as most of you know I will be getting my puppy the second week of September. The breeder asked me if I would be interested in the litter prior to the one I was going to take. I think she is getting sick of me!! This would mean I would get a pup about the second week of August. The timing would be much better because I finish my co-op job at the same time the pup would come home. I don't start my second year of school till the last week in Sept. I then only go for 14 hours a week so I will have lots of time to spend with the pup. Anyways.....I like both the females and I can't really decide so I thought I would post their pedigrees and maybe you all could tell me who you would pick based on this info. The stud is the same for both..I realize there are other things to consider.

Parents of the male:

Riverathorfarah di Campovalano
Nuvai-Nikol Disant Rou

Grandparents:

Athor di Campovalano
Farah di Campovalano

Jivago v.h. Wantij
Gr. Unita v. Neerlands Stam

Parents of the first female:

Baron Nike Renewal
Gilda Ginga House

Grandparents:

Prinz von Norden Stamm
Borana Karmen Sawages

Gino Gomez Del Citone
Ginga Sawages

Parents of the second female:

Balou v. Residenzschloss
Britannica Goldest Diamond

Grandparents:

Alfa Adelante del Citone
Ria Royal Bell

Javago v.h. Wantij
Ester Dobgar

So based on these dogs in their pedigree, I would appricate on comments...
Thanks alot!!

 

[micdobe]

Those are European dogs, and most people here are Americans. I don't know how familiar anybody else here is with European dogs. I know a little because I had a half German dog for over 12 years. These pedigrees are related to him. I get a little confused about which generation is which when I see a pedigree written out like that instead of in a pedigree format. But it looks like apparent DCM is being bred on in both litters. My dog died of suspected/diagnosed DCM at 12, his sister died the same way at 9, they had a similar pedigree on their sire's side, and also had DCM behind their American dam. Doubling, tripling, quadrupling on cardio dogs creates a higher incidence in the progeny, IMO.

I already wrowte in another thread about the ages some of those dogs died, how they died, and gave some of the names. I think it was in response to Back In Black but can't remember which thread it was.

Cardio is in all lines, what seems to make it worse is when dogs with known cardio are line bred on or doubled up on. That's the only warning I have.

Jivago just recently died at 12, I can't remember if I heard from what.

There are some well known kennel names in those pedigrees. Since they have the same sire and the mothers are related, I don't see on paper much difference, especially since they aren't born yet. Alfa Adelanted del Citone is the uncle of Gino Gomez del Citone, who is a products of two of Alfa Adelante's littermantes bred to each other. Gilda Ginga House is a Gino Gomez daughter. Baron Nike Renewal is a son of Prinz v Norden Stamm. Prinz is the father of Alfa Adelanted as well.

 

[doberkim]

it would be easier if you just told us the names of the dogs.

however, using pedigrees -
its P-litter Gem'Givveeon x C-litter Halit Pasa


or P litter Gem'Givveeon x a Dobereich litter (since Monica bought Gilda pregnant with the litter)



personally i wouldnt get a dog from either of those litters.

 

[Okie-dobie]

Thanks Micdobe & doberkim,
Micdobe so you are basically saying it does not matter what pup I take they will have alot of the same looks, traits, etc...and doberkim are you saying this because of these pedigree lines or because what you have heard on other boards about this kennel?
Based on what I have learnt it is pretty hard to avoid cardio. although what you are saying with these lines they are being doubled up?? 12 is a pretty good age for a dobe to die IMO.

 

[micdobe]

I was going to answer your question until you made that last remark. You try being the one whose dog dies suddenly at 12 and tell me how you feel about it.

DCM does not kill *all* dogs at 12. If you think by getting one of those puppies you can tell yourself it's okay because 12 is a good age. I see you didn't go read the long post I already made with this info, so I'll type some of it again just for you. Alfa Adelante del Citone died at 6, my dog's sister died at 9, Ebo vd Groote Maat died at 5 or 6, CAYA Dogzilla died at 4 or 5, Irinus de Ferignis died at 5. Etc. They can die at any age from this disease, most commonly in middle age, around 7 or 8.

I am not saying therer will be no difference in the puppies between litters. There are always differences between puppies, even in the same litter. I can't make any guarantees for you. I said the two litters have the same sire and the dams are related, so they "should" be similar, that is just logic. Like Kim I wouldn't get a puppy from either litter but that is not what you asked.

 

[doberkim]

gino gomez and his immediate relatives are dogs i actively strive to avoid, but that is just me. i have eliminated many breeders simply based on having him in their pedigrees. i think he has been horribly overbred, and has too many young deaths surrounding him. i dont care who is breeding the litter, anything with gino gomez in it is something i personally want nothing to do with.

 

[Okie-dobie]

micdobe, I think you may have taken what I said incorrectly. I am not saying that it is o.k. for a dobe to die at 12. I am also not that naive to believe they all live that long. And yes I did read the your previous comments in the other thread, this is unfortunate. The dogs mentioned are all great dogs, champions, and I do believe that things like cardio. and other prevelant conditons in the doberman cannot be eliminated over night or even in the years to come.

 

[Lexus]

Based on what I have learnt it is pretty hard to avoid cardio. although what you are saying with these lines they are being doubled up?? 12 is a pretty good age for a dobe to die IMO.

Okie, I won't even pretend that I know squat about any of the dogs or breeders, My ignorance will be too apparent and laughable I'll leave that to more experienced people.

Based on Micdobe's comments though, it would concern me, that she knows much about DCM being involved in those lines, and it hitting many dogs in those lines especially at an early age. And from what I am learning, yes it seems cardio can be found nearly anywhere and is hard to avoid totally, but, I think it is possible to find lines that it isn't as prevalent in, just to give yourself the best chance or peace of mind that your dog will be healthy and clear (hopefully) and not a decendant of a line that has thrown so very much DCM.

Am I making sense Kim or Mic?

 

[brumwolf]

Here is a link that has been posted on here before that could help with checking some of the dobes that you listed http://www.dobermannvereniging.nl
The wantij (prounounced one-tie)dog Jivago is Tia's great great grandfather and has sired many champions unfortunately he died in january but went to a good age,if you go to the DVIN website above i think it is possible to see some of the health checks on some of the dogs you have listed,-Good Luck with whatever puppy you have.

 

[Lexus]

Thanks for posting Brum, I see mostly hip info listed, I wish it would get into the DCM and if it was the cause of death for any of them. I realize that the dogs from years and years ago, they wouldn't know, but it doesn't give a cause of death or age of death. Maybe it is on there somewhere and I'm just not seeing it too.

Anyway, thanks for posting

 

[CoAl-s-Mom]

Thanks for posting Brum, I see mostly hip info listed, I wish it would get into the DCM and if it was the cause of death for any of them. I realize that the dogs from years and years ago, they wouldn't know, but it doesn't give a cause of death or age of death. Maybe it is on there somewhere and I'm just not seeing it too.

Anyway, thanks for posting

The europeans have denied for years that cardio is even a problem for them so an autopsy is rarely performed. Unfortunately that just hurts the breed more.

 

[Okie-dobie]

Thanks Brum, I have been to that site, it is pretty informative.

 

[brumwolf]

The europeans have denied for years that cardio is even a problem for them so an autopsy is rarely performed. Unfortunately that just hurts the breed more.

Well i can't talk for mainland europe but here in the U.K. we recognise DCM as a killer and as such have a program in place for testing,i personally will not breed from Tia if she is not health tested and clear of VWd,DCM,and hip score is good,remembering that DCM is a progressive disease and should be checked annually anyway.

 

[Lexus]

Good on you Brum.

 

[CoAl-s-Mom]

Well i can't talk for mainland europe but here in the U.K. we recognise DCM as a killer and as such have a program in place for testing,i personally will not breed from Tia if she is not health tested and clear of VWd,DCM,and hip score is good,remembering that DCM is a progressive disease and should be checked annually anyway.

Do you know how they test for cardio in the U.K.?
I'm glad to hear that at least in your area they recognize it, but I have read posts on another forum from euro breeders where they totally say it is not in their lines, that it is only an American problem.

 

[Murreydobe]

I'm glad to hear that at least in your area they recognize it, but I have read posts on another forum from euro breeders where they totally say it is not in their lines, that it is only an American problem.

This is true. The president of the DV (German doberman club) has even gone on record saying that in the past.

 

[TracyJo]

This is true. The president of the DV (German doberman club) has even gone on record saying that in the past.

This really surprises me. I read an article not too long ago (will see if I can find it and post it) that discussed how strict Germany is becoming with their breeding laws - odd colored dogs aren't just discouraged in a breeding program, it's illegal! It also discussed how it was illegal to breed dogs with certain hereditary diseases, coat types, and even sizes in different breeds.
My gosh, if they're going to hammer merling in certain breeds, you'd think that they'd do something about something as serious as DCM. But if they refuse to recognize a problem, I guess it's impossible to fix it...

 

[brumwolf]

I am not sure how the test is done because i have not seen it done yet,but i know it is carried out by a canine cardiologist,a breeder who i know and who has helped me no end with Tia even though she is not one of their pups are the one's who i will be consulting with about all the health tests including the one's for DCM,VWd,PHPV.I know that work is being done at Liverpool University to find the gene marker for DCM.I know the problems that are being caused by byb's and there is no way on earth i would try to breed unhealthy dogs because i love dobes too much to see them die young from these problems.There certainly are breeders in this country who do not regognize these problems but that could be said of everywhere,this can only be overcome by teaching people the right way of doing things,i have had dobes for nearly 20 years and i still learn something new all the time,and no doubt i will still be learning 20 years in the future if i am still breathing then,heck if i can still trot a dobe round the ring when i am nearly 70 i will still be showing!!!

 

[Okie-dobie]

I think like in Canada and the U.S. there are good breeders and bad in Europe. There are breeders in Europe that test and alot that dont. Yes, I find some Europeans say it is an american problem especially on some of the euro. forums and I think it is just awful that they can say this and be so sure. Those that do say it are probably in denial. I also think you cannot generalize and say all Europeans. There are good and bad in every bunch.

 

[Murreydobe]

This really surprises me. I read an article not too long ago (will see if I can find it and post it) that discussed how strict Germany is becoming with their breeding laws - odd colored dogs aren't just discouraged in a breeding program, it's illegal! It also discussed how it was illegal to breed dogs with certain hereditary diseases, coat types, and even sizes in different breeds.
My gosh, if they're going to hammer merling in certain breeds, you'd think that they'd do something about something as serious as DCM. But if they refuse to recognize a problem, I guess it's impossible to fix it...

Irresponsible breeding of merle dogs can have some pretty devastating consequences-deaf puppies, puppies born without eyes, etc. It's considered a "lethal" gene when you double up on it. Only very experienced breeders who know their pedigrees and color genetics well should be involved in breeding merles..so strict supervision might not be such a bad thing in that situation.

Additionally, in some breeds merle just suddenly "appeared" one day-and there are strong suspicions this is due to cross breeding, where the merle gene was brought in from another breed. In a situation like that, refusing to register dogs that might not be purebred isn't such a bad idea.

BTW..blue and fawn dobermans are DQ'd in the DV doberman standard, and if I'm not mistaken, they can't be registered in that country.

In general, there are definite pro's and con's to the German breed warden system. There are a lot of other rules about how many puppies a bitch can raise, all puppies having to be tattooed shortly after birth, etc. It's a system that works for them, and something that would never work in this country.

The Europeans are gradually having to admit that DCM isn't just an American disease, that it's an equal opportunity killer worldwide. I'm pretty sure I read not too long ago that plans for the future in the DV involve requiring cardiac evaluations for all dobermans used for breeding. But Germany is just one European country-lots of others don't have stringent requirements about breeding.