Opinions...

Dirk's size has never much bothered me. If you see pictures without a background I doubt that you could tell that he's a small dog. His bone is adequet for his size--and I think he's a little taller than murreydobe does--I've got a small male (a measured 27") and Dirk is only slightly shorter than Rumor. But I've also seen him in the ring with some BIG dogs and he does look like a puppy by comparison.

My recollection is that it was a very small litter--I've seen a red litter brother who probably could have finished except that he had a very novice owner who had a very bad mentor (who is subsequently out of Dobermans). The red brother was shown a limited amount, has points, is rather bigger than Dirk--probably 27-1/2".

The breeding behind them is pretty outcrossed and as murreydobe said Dirk only has two litters on the ground so what his ability to produce is like is hard, at this point to determine--and the puppies are pretty young.

dobebug said:

But I've also seen him in the ring with some BIG dogs and he does look like a puppy by comparison.
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Here's the thing, tho..when I first saw Dirk and thought he was a youngster, I wasn't looking at him from across the ring and gauging his size by comparing him to other males around him.

Instead, I was sitting in the front row ringside. He was set up directly in front of me. So I was looking at him on his own from no more than 3 ft. away, without even looking at the males ahead of or behind him.

I turned to the friend sitting next to me, and said "that's a nice puppy, who is he?", since she was the one with the catalog. She looked him up, said "he's 3 years old", said who he was and we BOTH kind of raised our eyebrows and said: "Wow".

I prefer males in the 27.5-28" range-at the top of the standard without going over. But I don't have any problem at all with 27" males..I can think of a few that I really like(d) and have never mistaken any of them for a puppy. Evidently 27" is where I draw the line in the sand or something.

What about his sire and dam? Are they generally smaller too? (Heartwoods Jewel of the Nile x Am.Ch. Cambria's Highly Regarded) Has anyone seen them? Opinions?

I have heard that there was quite a bit of cardio in the Cambria lines? Does anyone think there is some truth to this? His (Dirks) sire has a fair bit of Cambria breeding in him.

Also, I was wondering if anyone had seen or heard of Gentry's African Queen (Kenya)? And again, opinions? She was a Canadian dog...

Doing all the research, but I am still somewhat visual, I haven't been around enough to see many dogs, so I just like to get an opinion on what others (that have been around a while ) have seen or heard about these dogs. I have seen pics, but would also like to hear from others who have actually seen them. Does that make sense?

sundobe said:

What about his sire and dam? Are they generally smaller too? (Heartwoods Jewel of the Nile x Am.Ch. Cambria's Highly Regarded) Has anyone seen them? Opinions?

I have heard that there was quite a bit of cardio in the Cambria lines? Does anyone think there is some truth to this? I his (Dirks) sire has a fair bit of Cambria breeding in him.

Also, I was wondering if anyone had seen or heard of Gentry's African Queen (Kenya)? And again, opinions? She was a Canadian dog...

Doing all the research, but I am still somewhat visual, I haven't been around enough to see many dogs, so I just like to get an opinion on what others (that have been around a while ) have seen or heard about these dogs. I have seen pics, but would also like to hear from others who have actually seen them. Does that make sense?

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I'll let Dobebug do most of the talking about Ch. Cambria's Highly Regarded (Rayden), she saw more of him and more of what he produced than I have..although my Razzle is a Rayden great granddaughter. He was a little longer than I would have called ideal, but I always liked Rayden..right from the first time I saw him when he went RWD at one of the Nationals. He wasn't what I'd call a small dog, I'd bet he was right around 27.5".

I've never seen Gentry's African Queen, but I do know a bit about her background. Her dam, Can. Ch. Gentry's Twilight Image, isn't/wasn't a small bitch (I don't know if she's still alive or not). She had some good qualities, but like any other dog, also had her faults..she was butt high and had very light markings. There's A LOT of DCM in African Queen's pedigree.

sundobe said:

Hmm, that is interesting. Can you elaborate? I looked both pedigrees up in dobequest but of course, there are only a handful that have even reported what the date and cause of death was.

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Gentry's African Queen (Can. Ch. El Diablo's Topaz x Gentry's Twilight Image)

El Diablo's Topaz was sired by Am./Can. Ch. Maxidobes Dream Maker (Drummer) , who just died this summer of DCM. Drummer was sired by Thunder, who also died of DCM, and Thunder's dam died of DCM.

Gentry's Twilight Image is from a breeding of a Thunder son to a Thunder daughter (Ch. Foxridge's Journey to Soquel x Can. Ch. Veriann's Twilight Terrace). While it's said that Journey died of bleeding complications after surgery, he has a full brother who is currently fighting DCM. Veriann's Twilight Terrace also has a brother who died of DCM, Can. Ch. Veriann's The Tazman.

Veriann's Twilight Terrace was sired by Thunder, out of Can. Ch. Veriann's Quintessence (sp?). Veriann's Quintessence died of DCM shortly after whelping this litter.

Clear as mud, eh? Basically, you've got a pedigree linebred on a dog that died of DCM...

I saw a lot of Rayden (Ch Cambria's Highly Regarded) because I was traveling with his handler when he was being specialed. He was a dog I liked a lot too--he looked a little long but actually measured just barely longer than he was tall--I can't remember exactly what it was--something minor like 1/4 or 3/8 of an inch. And I say that he was just a little over 27-1/2 but Murreydobe is pretty close on size. Not a small dog. He had some really nice features and tended to throw his good points rather than his faults. He also seemed to be a dog who could be bred to various lines and still produce quality. You can't say that about a lot of males. His dam was out of a Sherluck bitch I think (is that right Murreydobe?)--Sherluck's Velvet Ash? I can't for the life of me remember his dam's sire. But she was an average sized bitch--not particularly small.

As I said Dirk's red litter brother was a bigger dog by a good 1/2"+ and I don't think I saw anything else from that litter as adults. I also thought it was a very small litter.

Cardio in Cambria dogs?--probably not more than in any other lines. Rayden died post op from bloat/torsion surgery--actually he was pts in the aftermath--he was very damaged--since his owner lives in Alaska my guess is that she wasn't able to get him to an emergency clinic in time to do the surgery--and time is of the essence when it comes to bloat and torsion.

Rayden's sire Ch Cambria's Cavalleria died from what half of the world says was cardio and the other half says wasn't. I didn't see Cavalleria's records from ultrasounds and EKG's so I don't know and would only be guessing like the rest of the people who don't know.

What I do know is that recently there was a fairly big flap on a lot of Doberman lists because the woman who had rescued Raden's dam (Kaywood's Highly Classified) and owned her for her last three years had her pts for a back/neck problem that might have been CVI or might have been a blown disc and in the name of trying to be helpful she thought that she should have Sabrina's heart necropsied since she had produced Rayden and another nice male who has been used at stud enough that owners of the offspring would want to know. So as it happened there was an ultrasound being done at the clinic when she took Sabrina in to be pts so they did an ultrasound (don't know about an EKG) and she published the following results--shortening fraction 29, thickened mitral valve and thickening of the heart wall. This was a 10-1/2 year old bitch and I had occasion when I took a friends Dobes through a cardiac clinic about three weeks ago to talk to the cardiologist about that information. It was my understanding that 25 or 26 was the sort of shortenting fraction that a bitch should have and higher figures were better. The actual information on the heart measurement was missing but the cardiologist I was talking to said that thickening of the mitral valve is common in older dogs--all older dogs--he said it is part of the aging process and not abnormal. He also said given the shortening fraction and the thickening of the heart wall that even without the ventricular measurement he wouldn't have thought this bitch had cardio--symptoms and available info just wasn't right. But there were a lot of people on the various lists who seemed to think that the ultrasound results meant she had DCM.

Dirk is an outcross. On the whole his sire threw moderate size. I think his dam was bred once before Dirk's litter but I don't know what was in the litter nor who she was bred to.

Don't know if this helps much or not.