Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
My 6 year old baby has had liver problems for coming up to two years. His alt levels started slightly elevated with no other concerns. We went back for a follow up a month later and they were the same. Went back a few weeks later and they were slightly higher so we had an ultrasound. Ultrasound was good - no obvious damage. We were advised to wait a month and see if antibiotics fixed it. We went back and his results were:
alt 576
Ast 88
Alkp 112
Bilirubin +2

He had a biopsy and he had copper in his liver, but no chirrosis or.fibrosis yet. His liver cells were classified a sub lethal. He went on a low cooper diet and pennicillamine for 3 months. We went back for a check up and his results are even worse!!!
Alt 1360
Ast 192
Alkp 388
Bilirubin +3

Vet took him off pennicillamine immediately and did another biopsy. The biopsy showed that the copper had gone, and that, other than that, his liver was ok again. We were pleased!! This was about just over a year ago.

His results have been as follows:

MAY AUG TODAY

ALT 1802 1465 1552
AST 160 196 164
ALP 485 294 316

We have had him on a low copper diet for the last 2 years and we are always at the specialist seeing about his condition. He had another biopsy about 6 months ago and it showed no problems. There are no other indications that he is unwell - but I know that these results mean something is wrong!!

He is also on Sam-E - but the vet seems to think that Denosyl would be better. I also give him fish oil.

He was just prescribed 40mg prednisolone daily - for 6 weeks - to see if that affects the levels.

Does anybody have experience with this that may be able to help with some suggestions in supplements/diet/meds that may help?

It has all cost over $15,000 over the last 2 years (thank god for insurance) and we are still without an official diagnosis. We even sent the results off to the world specialists in Holland who could not enlighten us further!
 

·
denormalized
Joined
·
5,824 Posts
My 6 year old baby has had liver problems for coming up to two years. His alt levels started slightly elevated with no other concerns. We went back for a follow up a month later and they were the same. Went back a few weeks later and they were slightly higher so we had an ultrasound. Ultrasound was good - no obvious damage. We were advised to wait a month and see if antibiotics fixed it. We went back and his results were:
alt 576
Ast 88
Alkp 112
Bilirubin +2

He had a biopsy and he had copper in his liver, but no chirrosis or.fibrosis yet. His liver cells were classified a sub lethal. He went on a low cooper diet and pennicillamine for 3 months. We went back for a check up and his results are even worse!!!
Alt 1360
Ast 192
Alkp 388
Bilirubin +3

Vet took him off pennicillamine immediately and did another biopsy. The biopsy showed that the copper had gone, and that, other than that, his liver was ok again. We were pleased!! This was about just over a year ago.

His results have been as follows:

MAY AUG TODAY

ALT 1802 1465 1552
AST 160 196 164
ALP 485 294 316

We have had him on a low copper diet for the last 2 years and we are always at the specialist seeing about his condition. He had another biopsy about 6 months ago and it showed no problems. There are no other indications that he is unwell - but I know that these results mean something is wrong!!

He is also on Sam-E - but the vet seems to think that Denosyl would be better. I also give him fish oil.

He was just prescribed 40mg prednisolone daily - for 6 weeks - to see if that affects the levels.

Does anybody have experience with this that may be able to help with some suggestions in supplements/diet/meds that may help?

It has all cost over $15,000 over the last 2 years (thank god for insurance) and we are still without an official diagnosis. We even sent the results off to the world specialists in Holland who could not enlighten us further!
Are you also giving him Milk Thistle (which is in Denamarin and Denosyl - sylibin comes from Milk Thistle) and do you have him on a liver diet - white stuff? Jean Dodds has a liver diet on her website that you can use. http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/Liver cleansing diet.htm

I had a liver boy who had an autoimmune disease of some sort and his liver enzyme shedding would climb up, used Simplicef to pull it down. He was on SAMe and Milk Thistle, had low thyroid and then went on to have seizures. He did not have copper toxicosis but we did have a liver biopsy done initially and bile testing to see if there was a shunt or not - no shunt.

Have you tested for a shunt? Are you getting ultrasound guided needle biopsies? How many samples do they take each time?
 

·
denormalized
Joined
·
5,824 Posts
My 6 year old baby has had liver problems for coming up to two years. His alt levels started slightly elevated with no other concerns. We went back for a follow up a month later and they were the same. Went back a few weeks later and they were slightly higher so we had an ultrasound. Ultrasound was good - no obvious damage. We were advised to wait a month and see if antibiotics fixed it. We went back and his results were:
alt 576
Ast 88
Alkp 112
Bilirubin +2
You should also supply the reference range used for each reading since different labs have different ranges and I am sure there is a measurement difference between USA and Australia too. e.g. cholesterol is measured totally differently between the 2 countries.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Q734

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,449 Posts
I would have put him on Denamarin ASAP with the alt values myself. That is a combo of marin and SamE
 
  • Like
Reactions: ellenm

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Thanks. We don't have Denamarin here in Australia and I've tried to buy it online, but they won't send it to Australia! :(

He has had two wedge biopsies (because needle biopsies wouldn't get enough liver to test for copper). He has had two ultrasounds - no suggestion of shunt. Bile acid test was slightly high, but he was not too concerned.

All the results are from the same vet/same lab - i do not have the papers, he just reads the results to me and i write them down. He said the ALT levels should be below 100 - so they are obviously through the roof!

His thyroid was also tested - fine. We did a stool sample for parasites - nothing.

The only "symptoms" he has are occasionally (like maybe every month or so) he might vomit up his dinner after drinking a lot. He did go off his food for a few days about a year ago and we all freaked out, in for more tests, but then he bounced back.

His diet consists of science diet l/d food in the morning, then in the evenings it changes: always one of the following meats raw chicken mince/raw turkey mince/tofu/tuna/beef - mixed with pasta, vegies and rice. We also mix in a bit of bone meal for added calcium (at the vet's suggestions).
 

·
denormalized
Joined
·
5,824 Posts
Thanks. We don't have Denamarin here in Australia and I've tried to buy it online, but they won't send it to Australia! :(

He has had two wedge biopsies (because needle biopsies wouldn't get enough liver to test for copper). He has had two ultrasounds - no suggestion of shunt. Bile acid test was slightly high, but he was not too concerned.

All the results are from the same vet/same lab - i do not have the papers, he just reads the results to me and i write them down. He said the ALT levels should be below 100 - so they are obviously through the roof!

His thyroid was also tested - fine. We did a stool sample for parasites - nothing.

The only "symptoms" he has are occasionally (like maybe every month or so) he might vomit up his dinner after drinking a lot. He did go off his food for a few days about a year ago and we all freaked out, in for more tests, but then he bounced back.

His diet consists of science diet l/d food in the morning, then in the evenings it changes: always one of the following meats raw chicken mince/raw turkey mince/tofu/tuna/beef - mixed with pasta, vegies and rice. We also mix in a bit of bone meal for added calcium (at the vet's suggestions).
My first suggestion since he vomits occasionally would be to break the meals into smaller servings more often to reduce liver stress. Why the tofu? - many dobes have a problem with soy (and flaxseed for that matter). Here is what I fed Yoda for a few years:

6:00am 1 x 400mg SAMe (Puritan's Pride)
1 x 200mg SAMe (Puritan's Pride)
1 x 0.6mg Soloxine
1 x Marin (milk thistle)
5mg Prednisone EOD

7:00am 1/8 lb cooked ground chicken necks with organs
1 free range organic egg cooked mashed with shell
1 tblsp cooked pumpkin
½ medium avocado, mashed
1 cup mashed cooked white rice/pasta/potato
2 x 1000mg Costco Fish Oil capsules
2 x 500 IU Vitamin E (GNLD)
1 x Kirkland Vit B-100

Noon 1 cup mashed white rice/pasta/potato
½ 8-9" sardine
¼ cup cooked yams
¼ cup cooked greens (zucchini, broccoli, beans, etc.)

4pm 1 1lb RMB or 1lb cooked ground chicken with bone

6pm ½ x 0.6mg Soloxine
2 x 1000mg Costco Fish Oil capsules
1 x Betagest (digestive enzyme)
1 ½ x 500mg Vit C

7pm ½ cup cooked oatmeal
¼ cup cooked yam
¼ cup mashed cooked white rice/pasta/potato
1 ½ scoops TCM Herbs

10pm 1 cup raw veal

RMBs: Veal, Beef, Emu (backbone & ribs), Turkey (various), Pork (necks)

Misc: strawberries, raspberries, cherries, grass

Treats: Cooked kidney, liver, testicles, tongue or heart (small amounts)
Bully sticks
 
  • Like
Reactions: Q734

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
milk thistle and Pepcid will help the vomiting
 

·
sandy2233
Joined
·
2,435 Posts
Emily was diagnosed very early with high liver values. I do blood work every month. She has had xrays and ultrasounds done. Her Xray looks like she has "sludge" in her stomach.
She has been on a very low dose of pred for several years right now. Her coat is pretty bad at this time as she has lots of hair loss due to the pred. Also muscle loss also due to the pred.
Right now she is getting 5mg pred every third day and we will see how she tolerates the extra day. She was getting it every other day. 3 bloodworks ago her liver values were over 1000. Now we are down to 777. On SD liver right now, canned and kibble. Appetite is very aggressive...pred problems with that too. No jaundice and 99% of people wouldn't know she has a problem. She can tolerate Natural Balance Turkey as I use it for treats. But I am no longer showing so she's not getting as much. She'll get horrible gas if she gets into junk.
No loose stools at this time. I watch her poop twice a day. She does get a Pepcid once a day also. I don't know how long I will get to enjoy her. I just enjoy her day by day. She's almost 5 now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Denosyl is Sam-E. The Denosyl is a chewable. Nor sure why your vet thinks Denosyl would be better, but we lost our liver dogs 3 years ago so things may have changed I have not found anything in literature to suggest that the Nutramax product is better. Make sure the Sam-E you are using is enteric coated and is packaged in foil blister packs as Sam-E is moisture sensitive. Give on an empty stomach.

Denamarin large dog is 425 mg of Sam-E and 35 mg of silybin A+B. Silybin is the bioactive component in milk thistle extract . You should supplement with milk thistle extract. Run by the vet. Milk thistle and Sam-E supplement is standard protocol. Make sure to find Silybin complexed with phosphatidyl choline, as this complex absorbs much better than milk thistle or milk thistle extract. Siliphos is what you should look for (a trade name) in the ingredients. Our vet was prescribing 600 mg Silybin Phospholipids (Siliphos®) which worked out to about 300 mg silybin (way more than what the Denemarin was providing). We bought over the internet human
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Thanks so much everyone. I will get him some milk thistle definitely! He is on 40mg of Pred a day - that seems like a lot!! But it's only for 6 weeks, then we will take more bloods to see if it's helped.

Thanks for that diet breakdown. As for the tofu, that was recommended by the vet as a low copper source of protein. So was cottage cheese etc. Which he loves. We are not allowed to feed any organ meats because they are VERY high in copper (and he has copper accumulation). We also can't feed duck, pork, lamb etc because too high in copper.
And unfortunately because we both work, we can't feed him that often :( We do break it into 2-3 meals a day, but we are gone at 8am, and not home until 6pm on weekdays.
 

·
denormalized
Joined
·
5,824 Posts
Thanks so much everyone. I will get him some milk thistle definitely! He is on 40mg of Pred a day - that seems like a lot!! But it's only for 6 weeks, then we will take more bloods to see if it's helped.

Thanks for that diet breakdown. As for the tofu, that was recommended by the vet as a low copper source of protein. So was cottage cheese etc. Which he loves. We are not allowed to feed any organ meats because they are VERY high in copper (and he has copper accumulation). We also can't feed duck, pork, lamb etc because too high in copper.
And unfortunately because we both work, we can't feed him that often :( We do break it into 2-3 meals a day, but we are gone at 8am, and not home until 6pm on weekdays.
You can't do that with Pred. 40 is high. Yoda was on 5mg EOD (every other day) and 10mg EOD is somewhat of a maintenance dose. When things went bad with his bloodwork we would up the pred to 20mg per day then you start weaning off after a couple of weeks - cut the dose in half for 2 weeks, then in half again for 2 weeks until you get down to 2.5 or 5mg EOD for 2 weeks then drop it. Long slow process.

The reason for EOD (according to Yoda's internist) is that the body makes its own cortisone and when getting a lot of pred, the body stops that process. You have to slowly bring back the ability to manufacture cortisone. It is serious to just cut off pred cold turkey.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wozee
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Top