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this is kinda long winded, please bear with me

as ive mentioned before, i take guinness to a large wooded area close by the house almost daily for off leash running and exercise. the only problem is his occasional choice to ignore a recall command. if another dog enters his view and is within about 100 yards, i lose control over him. i will give the "come" command and he will look at me for a second, wheels turning in his head, then take off. once he meets the dog i regain verbal control over him. so this is the problem.

he fully understands what the command is. there is no doubt about that. he is 100% reliable around the house and pretty much anywhere there is limited distraction. he has also learned from my training method that while great things happen when he does come to me, well, nothing bad is going to happen if he doesnt. playing with that dog way over there is way better than a treat anyway, so see ya.

ive set up some semi controlled situations and practiced recalls with mild distractions from other dogs and people. he has a very high success rate in those instances

we are in obedience class right now where he excels in every aspect including recalls. which is both great and very confusing. with 30+ other dogs around and agility class going on in the next ring, i was sure that it was gonna be a s**tshow. but no, he is 100%. even with gauntlet drills, hiding from him and calling, the instructor trying to distract him as hes running to me etc. he did a full body check to a lab that got in his way during one particular recall.

the "long lead" approach will not work down in the woods. im considering using a long lead up in fields above the woods where you will encounter the most dogs. im also considering an e-collar and just purchased the leerburg dvd on e-collar training to learn as much as i can about them.

any thoughts, ideas, tips?

finally for whatever it may be worth-he is quite well behaved and follows commands well otherwise. he has a range of ~100yds when we are off leash that he really wont stray from, even if another dog is in sight. like i said, class is going well and we are going to keep at it. obed II next and then advanced and rally and maybe agility. this is just the biggest practical training problem we have. and the only stressful one. his world would open up alot if we can get this figured out.
 

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Since I know a woman who lost a dog in the woods when it ran to see another dog I'm a big fan of e-collars. The DVD you've purchased is a good start and I'm sure a trainer would help you get used to them. I like to use the vibration first and then go to nic if the message is ignored. I know many are not fond of them but more than likely if my friend had an e-collar on her dog she would have come back and not been killed that day. I don't mean to sound mellow dramatic but in my opinion even the best trained dog can have one moment of indiscretion and if loose in the woods or by a road it could mean life or death.

Remember when purchasing an e-collar look at the distance of the signal, given your situation I'd buy one that has the longest range.

Good luck and happy training!
Sarah
 

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Kyrah has an excellent recall. When she was younger I talked to my trainer and asked to be trained on the ecollar. He did not feel that she needed it. I explained I wanted it for recall b/c I wanted to take her in unfenced areas and needed to have a backup just in case. With this he did teach me to use it. I use it for unfenced areas like hiking or fields. I also use it when she is playing with my granpup, Dexter who weighs about 17lbs. IMO the ecollar can be a great tool if used properly.

ETA: I forgot to say that her recall is excellent unless cat poop is involved. hehe Now I know what to look for when she is scenting it and try to catch her before she becomes to focused on it.
 

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OMG... I laughed pretty hard at this video. I know... not good for the dog, but the owner is pretty amusing! :roflmao:

Anyways~

I have an e-collar for Torque and it is wonderful. If used correctly they are a great tool. I use it on him when I take him with me on trail rides and hacks on horseback. A long line is not an option in that situation. Once they know what it is it really is a good safety net. I rarely ever have to actually use Torque's anymore. Just putting it on him is enough.
 

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Since I know a woman who lost a dog in the woods when it ran to see another dog I'm a big fan of e-collars. The DVD you've purchased is a good start and I'm sure a trainer would help you get used to them. I like to use the vibration first and then go to nic if the message is ignored. I know many are not fond of them but more than likely if my friend had an e-collar on her dog she would have come back and not been killed that day. I don't mean to sound mellow dramatic but in my opinion even the best trained dog can have one moment of indiscretion and if loose in the woods or by a road it could mean life or death.

Remember when purchasing an e-collar look at the distance of the signal, given your situation I'd buy one that has the longest range.

Good luck and happy training!
Sarah
OMG e-collar time ALREADY (give me a break, lets not cause more problems):
And the majority of "regular people" with "regular dogs" don't know how to train a puppy, let alone a full grown dog...& the ZAPPER, is NOT the MAGIC.
- using NO correct timing, NO clear expectations, No training direction, No voice pitch strength, Limited Leadership in the pets mind, etc. etc.

merlin00724 - NOW to the OP - review my off-leash video first...Amy has been this good, since a 6.5 months old pup...foundation & work finished.
- it will give you something to think about...she was personally "city road trained" without treats / w/ZERO bribes, is authentic and maybe more reliable
- can discuss talking points later http://www.dobermantalk.com/general...ontrolled-off-leash-walking-city-streets.html
 

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off leash e collar the only way to go you must be able to correct from a far or your dog or any dog will keep running !
 

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OMG e-collar time ALREADY (give me a break, lets not cause more problems):
And the majority of "regular people" with "regular dogs" don't know how to train a puppy, let alone a full grown dog...& the ZAPPER, is NOT the MAGIC.
- using NO correct timing, NO clear expectations, No training direction, No voice pitch strength, Limited Leadership in the pets mind, etc. etc.

merlin00724 - NOW to the OP - review my off-leash video first...Amy has been this good, since a 6.5 months old pup...foundation & work finished.
- it will give you something to think about...she was personally "city road trained" without treats / w/ZERO bribes, is authentic and maybe more reliable
- can discuss talking points later http://www.dobermantalk.com/general...ontrolled-off-leash-walking-city-streets.html
OK you got me very interested!
I've got a 12 month old doberboy.
He's friendly and recall works great on a long leash - with a treat.
However his off lead recall is getting worse and this morning he refused to come back for half an hour. Just running round. He even came to have a look at me a few times as I had turned round to walk home - but not close enough to grab.

I really don't want to go down the ecollar route.
 

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couldn't stop laughing !! sorry, my last doberman boy was like that, chased birds and totally ignored tried everything but with age he calmed down suck a nob head though ha!!
enjoed the jesus christ in richmond park, just reminded me of our boy in the lakes after the sheep, wouldn't harm a fly but so funny :)
 

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@Beaumont67 - I'm going to burn your video on a DVD, buy the biggest projector screen I can find and put it on a continous loop for my doberman to watch until he gets the message!

At one point they all take off, chasing birds in a field, but the vid then cuts so we don't see how you get them back under control...
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..
...
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I'm sure you did, and propably without raising your voice - I'm just a little jealous!

@dobey12 - thanks, but I'd really like to get this sorted before he goes playing with the traffic. So far he's staying on the fields but I don't want to get so he's permenantly on the lead.
 

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@Beaumont67 - I'm going to burn your video on a DVD, buy the biggest projector screen I can find and put it on a continous loop for my doberman to watch until he gets the message!

At one point they all take off, chasing birds in a field, but the vid then cuts so we don't see how you get them back under control...
....
I'm sure you did, and propably without raising your voice - I'm just a little jealous!

I am glad you enjoyed Amy's video...hope it helps some. (if you have questions that need clarification, just post on my posted thread...glad to help.
FYI - On a sidewalk, Amy is allowed to walk/run ahead of me up to ~50 ft.
She automatically stops at the end of each & every sidewalk...plus trained to keep paws off the pavement, unless I command her to cross the road.

When my pup was 3 months old, I took her into a nearby woodlot...and hid behind a tree (100 ft. away) while Amy was preoccupied smelling stuff.
Then I whisled with 2 fingers (very loud)...got her attention, and called her to "come".
Praised the crap out of her / proofed it a few times - years later, the whisle still works great...if Amy girl is out of my sight.
I was on a 64 acre farm, at my friends place, and we where chatting behind the barn...I never even looked for Amy in like 40 minutes.
When we walked up to the house, Amy was resting on the lawn, with her eyes glued to the door of my pickup.
- she knew Dad could not drive off without her, if she parked herself near my 4x4 and waited
 

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OMG e-collar time ALREADY (give me a break, lets not cause more problems):
And the majority of "regular people" with "regular dogs" don't know how to train a puppy, let alone a full grown dog...& the ZAPPER, is NOT the MAGIC.
- using NO correct timing, NO clear expectations, No training direction, No voice pitch strength, Limited Leadership in the pets mind, etc. etc.

merlin00724 - NOW to the OP - review my off-leash video first...Amy has been this good, since a 6.5 months old pup...foundation & work finished.
- it will give you something to think about...she was personally "city road trained" without treats / w/ZERO bribes, is authentic and maybe more reliable
- can discuss talking points later http://www.dobermantalk.com/general...ontrolled-off-leash-walking-city-streets.html
What you have with Amy is very special, but I would suggest that it has a whole lot more to do with who and what Amy is than it does with your training. I owned Amy's brother, and he was quite the same... he was the most extraordinary and wonderful animal I have ever had the privilege of owning. The dogs before him and the dog after him were/are not like he was, and the training methods which were appropriate for him and successful with him are not what would have been appropriate or successful (necessarily) with the other dogs I have and do own.

In common with the majority of replies to this thread, I think a properly used e-collar would be the best solution for the issue at hand.
 

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OMG e-collar time ALREADY (give me a break, lets not cause more problems):
And the majority of "regular people" with "regular dogs" don't know how to train a puppy, let alone a full grown dog...& the ZAPPER, is NOT the MAGIC.
- using NO correct timing, NO clear expectations, No training direction, No voice pitch strength, Limited Leadership in the pets mind, etc. etc.

merlin00724 - NOW to the OP - review my off-leash video first...Amy has been this good, since a 6.5 months old pup...foundation & work finished.
- it will give you something to think about...she was personally "city road trained" without treats / w/ZERO bribes, is authentic and maybe more reliable
- can discuss talking points later http://www.dobermantalk.com/general...ontrolled-off-leash-walking-city-streets.html


I'm sorry but that is just plain irresponsible and ignorant! It's nice and sweet that you have a nice easy going dog that never disobeyed you, do you honestly think that's all because of you? Seems like you got lucky and had a wonderful dog that was simply not motivated and had no desire to do other things, that doesn't make her well trained, that makes you lucky to have a great naturally obedient dog.

The OP sounds like she has done an excellent job of throughly training her dog and is still having issues. In her situation, I totally agree that an ecollar is a viable solution as she already has a nice obedience base upon which to layer the corrections.

On another note, OP, if I were you I would cut out the wood walking until you can get this issues resolved. You're not doing any good by allowing him to rehearse that nonsense and it is obviously putting him at risk and I'm sure not all the owners of those dogs appreciate an out of control (i.e. with no recall) strange dobe running up to their dog (especially if any of them are dog aggressive and being walked on leash for that very reason).
 

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I use an e-collar when we hike in areas where the wildlife flourish. Sam's obedience is very good but I still respect the fact that he's an animal with a strong drive for the furry creatures.

First came his OB foundation then learning how to train him with an e-collar.
 

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What you have with Amy is very special, but I would suggest that it has a whole lot more to do with who and what Amy is than it does with your training. I owned Amy's brother, and he was quite the same... he was the most extraordinary and wonderful animal I have ever had the privilege of owning. The dogs before him and the dog after him were/are not like he was, and the training methods which were appropriate for him and successful with him are not what would have been appropriate or successful (necessarily) with the other dogs I have and do own.

In common with the majority of replies to this thread, I think a properly used e-collar would be the best solution for the issue at hand.
^^^^ Just like your Ruben was clearly a very special dog, and his litter mate Amy is to...I tend to believe, every future dog is indeed different...and each new one brings us training knowledge & a learned skill set, that the old one never had the benifit of, in the first place.

My first dobe was from an Ontario breeder in 1977, and quite a different girl, than what I have now...much more alpha.
I trained her to score 198.5/200 pts. in the OB ring...but I did my homework.
If I can do that with my first dobe 35 years ago, well my current dobe had a huge head start.
People have said before, I got lucky with my pup / others say, you worked your butt off, to get those results.
Maybe I did & maybe I didn't, just semantics...but I set up my dog to win-&-grow and continually learn...not allowed to fail.

I have trained & helped other dogs for other people...from a pair of boxer pups to a bully black lab that liked to plow over his owner...that suffered from a broken back.
- I had the 8 week old pups trained quick / the owners could not duplicate my timing and voice intensity or did any homework...but the dogs did listened to me
- the black lab I fixed in one secession and the owner carried on my work...2 weeks later the dog was cuddling for love and got the owners lippers, on his very own
Yea, every dog is different / while the training method is so similar.


I'm sorry but that is just plain irresponsible and ignorant! It's nice and sweet that you have a nice easy going dog that never disobeyed you, do you honestly think that's all because of you? Seems like you got lucky and had a wonderful dog that was simply not motivated and had no desire to do other things, that doesn't make her well trained, that makes you lucky to have a great naturally obedient dog.

The OP sounds like she has done an excellent job of throughly training her dog and is still having issues. In her situation, I totally agree that an ecollar is a viable solution as she already has a nice obedience base upon which to layer the corrections.

On another note, OP, if I were you I would cut out the wood walking until you can get this issues resolved. You're not doing any good by allowing him to rehearse that nonsense and it is obviously putting him at risk and I'm sure not all the owners of those dogs appreciate an out of control (i.e. with no recall) strange dobe running up to their dog (especially if any of them are dog aggressive and being walked on leash for that very reason).
^^^^ partically answered above !!
And when Amy dies, I will get another 8 week old puppy (ASAP) and post a 6-7 month old YouTube video of her healing off-leash, down the city's main street district.
With confidence and much work, we will be good to go...and maybe the lucky pup myth, can be put to rest....lol.

And yes the OP has done an excellent job in OB class...and no disrespect implied.
To me it's funny though, many will slam the Cesar Millan method...but the e-collar is OK.
Maybe I will never understand, this logic, but I'm not the DT ones here with:
- my dobe bit me / same sex aggression / guards its food or bone / chews my arm / jump up / chews drywall & furnature / etc.
And if that's what I ever get, I will deal with it promply and without an e-collar...just because I can.
 

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To me it's funny though, many will slam the Cesar Millan method...but the e-collar is OK.
Because the e-collar is not about scaring the crap out of a dog. The e-collar is like any other tool you use for correction. A spray bottle, a leash pop, ect. In some ways, I find it more humane than a leash pop with a prong collar because at the highest setting of our Dogtra 1900NCP, a 'nick' correction hurts less than a leash pop with a prong collar on your neck. Each time your dog is corrected with an e-collar, you choose a setting, and the intensity of the correction won't be swayed by your feelings or if your dog is pulling ahead. (If you're so emotional that you crank up intensity of the e-collar just out of anger/frustration, you probably shouldn't be owning a dog.) I don't teach behaviors with the e-collar, but instead use it to reinforce behaviors he knows 100%, that he willingly ignores after he's confirmed he's heard the message.
 

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I understand the theory of the e-collar and I wouldn't dream of critising someone for using one.
However I'd rather not with my dobe if I can help it.
Each to their own.
My dog has a full length tail to help him balance.
He also has complete, floppy ears so his brain doesn't fill up with water when it rains.
But I recognise there are good reasons folk dock and crop, but its not for me.
Each to their own.

@dobey12 - I guessed what you meant to type! no offense taken.

@Beaumont67 - which thread would be best for us to discuss your training methods?

@Merlin00724 - I apologise as I seem to have hijacked your thread a little.
 

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One problem with this forum and the advise given is there are so many varying levels of dogs and trainers. By that I mean you have dogs ranging from sedate do nothing lap dogs, to seriously driven working dogs. The owners are anything from, I've watched animal planet and or been to a petco class and I know how to train to competitive trainers who have succeeded in working venues.

This creates a problem based on who is asking the question. Now I feel the working people answer best because though they work with driven dogs they more than likely have seen there fare share of mild to sedate dogs as well. I think alot of the "pet" people have no clue what it is to deal with a highly driven/motivated dog, though many seem to think they do.

MY current dog is what I consider above pet but below working. Though I foster many dogs on the sedate side, and work with many dogs at my Schutzhund club who are on the far end of the working spectrum. I try and give advise based on the individual dog. Any body who works with different dogs on a weekly basis knows the level of correction to get the point across will vary from dog to dog. A dog in drive is even harder to get your point across. If I were to give a "Rocko" correction to some of the GSD at the club I think the dog would actually laugh at me.

Point being anyone can give advise, its the internets. Doesn't make it the right advise. I am far from being even a Novice trainer, but am working to be better at it day by day. Which is why I love gathering things from various dog forums. The thing about this forum is the range of sports, dogs,trainers, ect..

To be clear I do enjoy this site!
 
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