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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I've posted a few things in regards to my Dobe's health in the past and unfortunately nothing seems to be getting better.

The gist of the entire thing is one day she had worms in her stool. I dropped off the stool for a fecal flotation and I was told that they were unable to find anything. This was after I literally saw a few of them doing the hibbidy jibbidy and waving to me from the grass. Being that I couldn't understand how a vet couldn't find the worms in a bag I had literally just provided to her I decided to move to a different vet.

Vet B I give a stool sample and they forgot to tell me it had round worm eggs. Really? We put her on some Panacur C, 3 days in a row, and then in 3 weeks another 3 days in a row and then another 3 days in a row in another 3-4 weeks so we could hit every stage of the worms(so they said). All was well and good in the world and she didn't show any signs of infestation in her stools while I was looking for yet another new vet(Sorry but I can't forgive forgetting to tell me that my dog had something going on).

Here we are now with Vet C. Now one thing to keep in mind is this idiot at one point told me she was bunny hopping and wanted $1800 for X-Rays etc to check for Hip Dysplasia. I however lost my energy finding a vet who didn't get their degree on some Caribbean island and decided to stick with her. Worms are back after quite a few months, her coat looks dull as hell, stools are a yellowish color and soft. We do some blood-work and two things come back:

1. Elevated Alkaline Phophate
2. Elevated GGT

She starts telling me I need an ultra sound and this and that and the other thing tallying up to around $3,000 in diagnostics. I was obviously skeptical.

I did some research online and I found the following on MANY vet schools websites among others:

"Both ALP and GGT are elevated in disease of the bile ducts and in some liver diseases"

So I started researching liver diseases and find the following:

Type of Liver Disease

Infections


Examples of Causes/Conditions


Viral hepatitis, Parasitic infection


I have described this worm I keep seeing to almost a dozen vets and every single one tells me I'm crazy. I'm not and I'm now beyond frustrated. I have honestly probably spent 100+ hours looking at images of dogs cut open, stool samples etc and I have not ONCE found the worm that keeps appearing in her stools which is stressing me out. I'm trying to get an example so I can take a picture and post it but at this point I'm at wits end with this thing. Every vet I feel as if they are just trying to take me for a ride because I can afford it and all I want is my dog to be healthy. The worm I keep seeing is white, flat and roughly about and inch long. It does not appear to be segmented and the one end seems to have a slight "flange" as it opens slightly to form what I could only describe as the head? I feel like my dog is infected with the ebola virus or something at this point because every vet is telling me she has no worms. I know something is going on and I need to get it resolved. Begrudgingly Vet C who I am still seeing till I find another one has given me a prescription of a broad spectrum dewormer with the active ingredients of Pyrantel Pamoate/Praziquantel. On top of this being that the worms had at one point stopped appearing in her stools and was subsequently put on interceptor 1x a monthly, how the hell did she get infected again?! Sorry to drop this on everyone as I wish I had better news once in a while. I love my dog to death but it's so frustrating feeling helpless and at the mercy of these "professionals." I'm not sure what to do at this point but I need to get her well again, and soon. Thanks all for any advice. Btw if anyone lives in SE PA/NJ and knows a GOOD vet, feel free to let me know.
 

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I don't have anything medically to offer you, but I just wanted to send some healing thoughts your way- I can't imagine how frustrating this must be.. I hope you find a resolution soon. Your girl is lucky to have such an advocate.
 

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Sea Hag
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$1800 for hip xrays is just plain highway robbery.

Anyway, I'd try to save one of the worms when you see one-maybe put it in a bottle with some alcohol or something.

It's possible your dog is getting reinfested just by being in her own yard. Some worms are very difficult to get rid of permanently because the eggs wind up in the dirt, the dog gets the eggs on their paws, licks their paws, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
$1800 for hip xrays is just plain highway robbery.

Anyway, I'd try to save one of the worms when you see one-maybe put it in a bottle with some alcohol or something.

It's possible your dog is getting reinfested just by being in her own yard. Some worms are very difficult to get rid of permanently because the eggs wind up in the dirt, the dog gets the eggs on their paws, licks their paws, etc.
I agree, the best part was "everything looked fine." Oh, glad I spent that $1800 when your prognosis was "She is bunny hopping on a slick tile floor." Well Mr Vet, did you notice she has no fur on the bottom of her little feet? She's probably sliding...

Anyway top of it I've literally spent $270 on fecal floats since September and only one confirmed round worm eggs. Problem is these worms don't look ANYTHING like any round worms pictures I have ever seen.. Sigh.
 

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It almost sounds like tape worms. Do these segments look like grains of rice then u notice they are little wiggly worms??
Tape worms are in fleas can be found in mice, which is why outdoor cats get them so frequently.

As said in the above post, some of these worms may look dried up or dead but can live a long time in grass, dirt, etc
Good luck:p
 

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My suggestion is to put what worms you find in a jar of alchol and take to the vet. I cant believe that vet soaked you for $1800 for xrays. Thats just shameful! There is Sophie Koster, DVM in NJ. Cant remember what city now. You could look her up. She raises, shows and professionally crops dobermans. You dont really need a dobe specialist, but I would think maybe she would want to help a doberman in need. Maybe wait till you have a sample if possible without your girl getting too sick. Sorry youre having such vet problems. Maybe check prices here first.
 

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I'm sorry it's very frustating

Did you try and put the description in then parasite/worms to see if anything comes up.

Can you go to a Vet School not sure if there is one close to you maybe they have come across something like this before. Ask your Vet for a referral if you need one.

When they did the blood work did they check for parasites/worms

Wild animals have all sorts of things I've had skunks, possum in my back yard; and, mosquitoes carry different diseases.

The man across the street from me adopted a Golden who had been Vet checked when he got her took her into his Vet when he got her said Ok then later found she had a tape worm. I'll have to ask if he knew how long she had it and how it was found out.

Good luck
 

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Liver Fluke??



They normally live in the bile duct and liver (which would explain the liver symptoms and also why you can't find the parasite very often). They have a weird life cycle you'd have to look up to see how you dog could have been infected. I think the size might be right at about 1-2 inches long.

Anyway, I'm totally guessing. Like everyone says--try to get a sample of the worm in a bottle, and also consult a vet school. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Liver Fluke??



They normally live in the bile duct and liver (which would explain the liver symptoms and also why you can't find the parasite very often). They have a weird life cycle you'd have to look up to see how you dog could have been infected. I think the size might be right at about 1-2 inches long.

Anyway, I'm totally guessing. Like everyone says--try to get a sample of the worm in a bottle, and also consult a vet school. Good luck.
The worms I'm seeing are much thinner than that but thanks for the effort, we do appreciate it.


I'm sorry it's very frustating

Did you try and put the description in then parasite/worms to see if anything comes up.

Can you go to a Vet School not sure if there is one close to you maybe they have come across something like this before. Ask your Vet for a referral if you need one.

When they did the blood work did they check for parasites/worms

Good luck
I've literally looked at almost every canine parasite known to man at this point(at least I think) and I can't find one that looks like what she is getting. They did check the stool when they did the bloodwork and claimed they couldn't find anything. This was another stool sample that had worms in it..

My suggestion is to put what worms you find in a jar of alchol and take to the vet. I cant believe that vet soaked you for $1800 for xrays. Thats just shameful! There is Sophie Koster, DVM in NJ. Cant remember what city now. You could look her up. She raises, shows and professionally crops dobermans. You dont really need a dobe specialist, but I would think maybe she would want to help a doberman in need. Maybe wait till you have a sample if possible without your girl getting too sick. Sorry youre having such vet problems. Maybe check prices here first.
I'll give her a ring. To be honest price isn't an issue, it's the anger that I'm willing to pay whatever it takes and these people can't figure it out. At this point I'm not sure if they really can't or they are just trying to pay for a boat.


It almost sounds like tape worms. Do these segments look like grains of rice then u notice they are little wiggly worms??
Tape worms are in fleas can be found in mice, which is why outdoor cats get them so frequently.

As said in the above post, some of these worms may look dried up or dead but can live a long time in grass, dirt, etc
Good luck:p
That's the thing, I've never seen the "grains of rice" stage which makes me think it isn't a tape worm. When they are in the stool they seem to be independent living organisms. They are always roughly an inch long and appear to be without visible segmentation.



Thanks for everyone's input, Coco says thank you! Looks like I may be swinging by the University of Pennsylvania.. I went there for my own graduate work so I might be able to leverage the alumni thing.

 

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Sea Hag
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Usually you just see the individual tapeworm segments in poop or coming out of the dog's anus, it would be pretty rare to see an entire tapeworm with discernible segments being passed. Dogs can easily be re exposed to tapeworms, the most common host is fleas.
 

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That's the thing, I've never seen the "grains of rice" stage which makes me think it isn't a tape worm. When they are in the stool they seem to be independent living organisms. They are always roughly an inch long and appear to be without visible segmentation.
Have you tried Googling "tapeworms in dog feces" (or something like that) and clicking on "images"? This is truly what I am hearing described. The "grains of rice" is usually what dessicated segments stuck to fur is compared to... not live segments recently passed. Tapeworms are not diagnosed by a fecal floatation test, since they do not produce eggs which could be found by that means.
 

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Oh, glad I spent that $1800 when your prognosis was "She is bunny hopping on a slick tile floor." Well Mr Vet, did you notice she has no fur on the bottom of her little feet? She's probably sliding...
If she is bunny hopping, that would not be due to a slick floor. The price you were quoted was excessive, but I would agree that x-rays are in order when you find a place you're happy with.
 

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Sea Hag
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Have you tried Googling "tapeworms in dog feces" (or something like that) and clicking on "images"? This is truly what I am hearing described. The "grains of rice" is usually what dessicated segments stuck to fur is compared to... not live segments recently passed. Tapeworms are not diagnosed by a fecal floatation test, since they do not produce eggs which could be found by that means.
I agree, sounds like tapeworms to me!
 

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Usually you just see the individual tapeworm segments in poop or coming out of the dog's anus, it would be pretty rare to see an entire tapeworm with discernible segments being passed. Dogs can easily be re exposed to tapeworms, the most common host is fleas.
I'll add to this that a tape segment--moves, is usually white when fresh and is often the only clue that a dogs (or cat) has tapeworm. But they usually are not an inch long--more often 1/4" to 3/8" long. They really do look a lot like a grain of rice. When they dry up they look mostly pale yellow and like a sesame seed. The segments contain eggs and a pet with tape who is shedding segments can easily reinfest themselve.

Occasionally a pet might be diagnosed with tape by an endoscopy (usually because something else was suspected) and I'm told that it's also possible for them to be dx'd by ultrasound.

Have you actually taken a new stool with the worms in to the vet? That would be my first move. And if you've been seeing these "worms" in anything other that a just dropped stool it's possible that what you've been seeing is one of the many nematodes (soil dwellers) whose role in life is to dispose of organic material (like poop). People bring stool samples in all the time to the clinic where I work (totally freaked out by the sight of nematodes in the sample).

Tape segments are nearly the only type of worm that a dog would carry that would be visible without a microscope. Well, other than roundworms--adult round worms are BIG and very visible.

Good luck with getting this sorted out.
 

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While going to vet tech school it was my turn to clean kennels out. Walking into one of our **** hound pens, I saw what looked like a shoe string on the floor. It was about a foot long. It was a tape worm !! BLAH, I had seen segments before but never a fully intact one. You talk about wanting to puke !
 

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While working, I would drop my dogs off in the morning at the vet to have their checkup (and a bath) and pick them up in the afternoon. One advantage of this was they would walk the dog several times during the day and pick up the stool. So, not only was the regular exam done, but the vet techs and handlers also got to observe. Once after a negative worm test in the am, some showed up that afternoon and they retested and they were there.

Now that I am retired, I still do this. But then I also am very fortunate to have a very good vet here in S. Georgia. Some vets only go through the motions, and some go the extra mile. When I had to go into the hospital on an emergency basis, a friend had my house keys and he contacted the vet and a handler and a vet tech who knew my dogs went with him to pick them up and board them. That's the extra mile.

Keep looking around for a good vet, ask your dog owning friends who they use. Another way to tell is from the interaction between the vet and the dog. If it is just business and no real interaction, I would keep looking.
 

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I've literally looked at almost every canine parasite known to man at this point(at least I think) and I can't find one that looks like what she is getting. They did check the stool when they did the bloodwork and claimed they couldn't find anything. This was another stool sample that had worms in it..

Sorry I meant did they check the blood itself for parasites/worms.

If, you do go to the University of Pennsylvania they might give you some Vet referrals in your area.

Bringing in stool samples with worms in it and they didn't find anything sounds as though they don't know what they are looking at. Good Country Vets will sometimes treat by symptoms and a description of whats going on in addition to whats been done so far. They can see things that a City Vet may not. JMO

It would be ideal to get additional stool samples that have the worms if you can.

Fingers crossed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Have you tried Googling "tapeworms in dog feces" (or something like that) and clicking on "images"? This is truly what I am hearing described. The "grains of rice" is usually what dessicated segments stuck to fur is compared to... not live segments recently passed. Tapeworms are not diagnosed by a fecal floatation test, since they do not produce eggs which could be found by that means.
Yeah I haven't seen anything that resembles the pictures I'm seeing. I keep looking though almost hourly. I'm determined now to beat the crap out of whatever is bothering my little girl.

If she is bunny hopping, that would not be due to a slick floor. The price you were quoted was excessive, but I would agree that x-rays are in order when you find a place you're happy with.
She most definitely does not have hip problems. I had a Siberian Husky with HD and I know what it looks like. This being said she regularly torches her best buddy Karma, a 2 year old Boxer when chasing a ball together in my backyard. Hell, she can keep pace with Karma at full tilt with her head cocked sideways just to be a brat as the boxer has no shot in keeping up if she goes into top gear. The only time she does her little hopping thing is on a slick floor when she's excited from seeing a dog and can't get any traction. E.g. Petsmart/Petco/Vet's office. Grass, carpet, pavement, dirt etc this dog moves like the wind.

I already had her hips looked at by the vet my mother used to work with a while back and he laughed and said the person who said she needed to be checked should probably have her license to practice taken away. I would do this for the stools as well but driving near 7 hours every time a problem comes about would be a bit much.

Sorry I meant did they check the blood itself for parasites/worms.

If, you do go to the University of Pennsylvania they might give you some Vet referrals in your area.

Bringing in stool samples with worms in it and they didn't find anything sounds as though they don't know what they are looking at. Good Country Vets will sometimes treat by symptoms and a description of whats going on in addition to whats been done so far. They can see things that a City Vet may not. JMO

It would be ideal to get additional stool samples that have the worms if you can.

Fingers crossed.
With what they charged me for the bloodwork they better have. It was a full analysis, soup to nuts. I know what you mean about country vets. I'm from Arkansas originally and we lived on a farm. I felt as if they just knew what they were doing from REAL practical experience, not some jibberish out of some new-age "Hands of Healing" seminar.
 

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Look, I understand that you are frustrated by not being able to get to the bottom of whatever it is you are seeing in your dogs poop.

Here's another suggestion...when you get a stool that has these unidentified things in it, pick it up in a clean class or plastic container and take it immediately to the vet--stand there until a vet can look at the objects you are seeing.

It sounds like tape segments but the size is wrong--tape segments are not an inch or two long--or at least the segments of the most common tapeworms to affect dogs aren't.

There are some nematodes (soil fauna, scavengers of organic material--often seen in, on or under poop that has been on the ground for a few hours) that will vaguely resemble the things you are seeing but which would typically be ignored by a tech or a vet doing a comprehensive examination (under the microscope rather than just a fecal float for eggs) because they aren't a dog parasite.

You need to show them what you are seeing so that they can identify it for you--when vets and tech say they didn't find anything it's because a) they are only doing a float and tapeworms eggs wouldn't be found like that or b) it's not a dog parasite but something that is part of the ecology that normally disposes of stuff like dog poop. Nematodes for example.

So if you see stuff and take the sample in and they say they don't find anything you need to stand there and show them what it is you are seeing.

Continueing to change vet clinics isn't really the answer. Internal parasites in dogs isn't rocket science and while I've had country vets who were brilliant I've had city vets who were equally brilliant.

In any case, gooid luck--but I think you need to try to address the problem and the vets in a somewhat different manner. What you've done so far hasn't worked.
 

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I would stop going to day practice and either see a specialist or vet school. I also do not think that hips are #1 on your list at this point and I would ignore that for a moment while figuring out more important problems (and check on the hips that MAY be a problem once the problem at hand is under control).

in ref to the worm- Does/has she ever been one to eat frogs, lizards, etc or around any water/ponds - there are types of flatworms that can be transmitted if your pet eats a frog or something along those lines. If not that, most likely a tapeworm so be sure to use flea preventative regularly and you can deworm with a variety of treatments to be sure you have cleared and infestation.
 
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