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JagersDaddy
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello!
My name is Zac, and my wife and I are diligently looking for a doberman. We absolutely love the breed, and I personally think they are some of the most gorgeous dogs on the planet. They're so elegant and athletic, and from what I have researched, have great temperaments and are great family dogs.

Anyways, we are going to look at a breeder's last Red male this saturday to meet the parents and check out his temperament and stuff. The Reds are my favorite, they're so pretty and end up being that nice chocolate color.

The only negative is that his Dew claws and tail need removed. I do not plan on getting the ears cropped, I don't mind cute floppy ears. They look just as [email protected]$ without the pointy ears. But because the dews and tail need done, she is selling him for only $150!! What a killer deal right?!

Any suggestions for me?
 

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JagersDaddy
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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
If the tail wasn't done at 3 days, it's now called an amputation. I'd leave the tail natural and leave the dew claws alone as well.
You know i have considered leaving the tail natural. I don't see an issue with it, since their tails are nice and pointy. However, i know that their dew claws can get quite long, and can easily scratch. I'm not a fan of being scratched!!

Do you know how much it might be to just get the dew claws removed? The vet informed me that they would put the puppy under so as to not have any pain... advice? The only other thing is that my wife is considering doing shows, and I know that tails are not allowed for showing, am i right?
 

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sufferin succotash
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Dew claws can be trimmed just like nails. Many working breeders leave the dew claws intact and they pose no issues.

What kind of shows does your wife want to do?


You know i have considered leaving the tail natural. I don't see an issue with it, since their tails are nice and pointy. However, i know that their dew claws can get quite long, and can easily scratch. I'm not a fan of being scratched!!

Do you know how much it might be to just get the dew claws removed? The vet informed me that they would put the puppy under so as to not have any pain... advice?
 

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Welcome!!! I'm fairly new here myself, so I can attest to how helpful the threads of this forum can be.

Be sure to do some research on the differences between reputable breeders and back yard breeders, or BYBs.

Some things to look for are a good pedigree, titles from the sire and dam, health tests from both the parents, a health garantee, shots up to date, etc.

I'm sure others will chime in as well. There is also a list (not all inclusive) floating around the site somewhere of reputable breeders.

Welcome!

Edit...

Just saw the $150 part. I'm pretty sure the proper health testing that is needed is gonna run more than that. Sounds like you found yourself a BYB. :-(
 

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JagersDaddy
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Welcome to DT.

I hate to say it, you seem so excited, but $150 for a doberman does not say "killer deal" to me.
This is a wonderful and amazing breed but it's not a healthy breed and breeding reputably is not cheap. What health tests have been done on the parents of this dog you are looking at?
Yes i know it does seem to be too good to be true, but here are the facts:
1. The breeder has had mom's line 10 yrs - no health problems - no hip problems. Have had dad almost 3-no prob. The Man she got dad from said he's had no issues w/ his parents either.
2. He has his first shot and wormer. Next shot due 3 weeks from tomorrow. Rabies due around 4 months
3. Temperament good. Not aggressive. Socializing well with people. Lays at her feet nice and calm.

This is not a byb breeder by any means. Both mom and dad are AKC registered blood lines. The reason she is selling him so cheap is because he does not have his ears, dews, or tail done. Because none of that is done, AKC will not accept him even though his parents are fully registered. So that is why her price is drastically reduced. Simple as that. Normally she charges around $600-$800 depending on the color and size.
 

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JagersDaddy
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Welcome to DT! I am concerned that you may be supporting a BYB though. Take a look at this thread and then ask yourself if you are supporting a reputable breeder.

http://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding-breeders/47441-reputable-breeders-new-folks.html

Good luck to you!
I have read plenty of the threads about "reputable breeders" and have my own opinions about some of the snooty stuck up people here. However, to answer your question, no she is not a BYB. She has been doing it for almost 20 years, and is very ethical and nice. Please read my post right before this one as well.
 

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sufferin succotash
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Sorry but the AKC doesn't give 2 sh*ts about whether or not a dog has factory original parts. The AKC is a dog registry only.

Because none of that is done, AKC will not accept him even though his parents are fully registered. So that is why her price is drastically reduced. Simple as that. Normally she charges around $600-$800 depending on the color and size.
 

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u mad?
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Sorry but the AKC doesn't give 2 sh*ts about whether or not a dog has factory original parts. The AKC is a dog registry only.
This.

I'm guessing that he can't be registered because at least one of the breeder's dogs was sold on a limited registration (instead of full) which means that the dog's offspring cannot be registered. Many reputable breeders sell many of their puppies on limited registration because they don't want dogs who aren't stellar examples of the breed being bred.

Just because somebody has been breeding for a long time doesn't make them reputable. It's a shame that you feel the way that you do, that we're snooty, but you should spend some time reading different doberman rescue websites and the stories that are on this forum. The "snooty" people of DT give their time, energy, and money for this breed.

You've been here what, two minutes? Perhaps you should learn some more before making a snap judgement.
 

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Zjcostello

Please take the advice given to you, many here know what they are talking about when it comes to Dobermans. Do not make the same mistake I did in purchasing this dobe.

And there is NO degree of a BYB...it takes only one fact to make a breeder a BYB.
 

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I have read plenty of the threads about "reputable breeders" and have my own opinions about some of the snooty stuck up people here. However, to answer your question, no she is not a BYB. She has been doing it for almost 20 years, and is very ethical and nice. Please read my post right before this one as well.
Oh I read it. It appears that you and I disagree about what a BYB is.

**** luck to you.
 

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Got mutt?
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Yes i know it does seem to be too good to be true, but here are the facts:
1. The breeder has had mom's line 10 yrs - no health problems - no hip problems. Have had dad almost 3-no prob. The Man she got dad from said he's had no issues w/ his parents either.
2. He has his first shot and wormer. Next shot due 3 weeks from tomorrow. Rabies due around 4 months
3. Temperament good. Not aggressive. Socializing well with people. Lays at her feet nice and calm.

This is not a byb breeder by any means. Both mom and dad are AKC registered blood lines. The reason she is selling him so cheap is because he does not have his ears, dews, or tail done. Because none of that is done, AKC will not accept him even though his parents are fully registered. So that is why her price is drastically reduced. Simple as that. Normally she charges around $600-$800 depending on the color and size.
1. Have they done any health testing to prove that the sire and dam have no problems? Stuff like OFA, holtering, and dna testing for vWD? Ask to see the paperwork.

2. Shots should be done no matter where you get your pup from.

3. Most pups are friendly. What is the temperament of the parents like? That might be more telling than a friendly puppy.

As far as the "great deal" of a price is concerned, it sounds more like this "breeder" is trying to "move" a pup that they don't want to put any more money or effort into.

And the AKC doesn't care what the heck body parts are or aren't attached. The dog can have two heads, six legs, three tails, and no hair, but as long as it is purebred, and both parents were registered, you can register it.
 

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JagersDaddy
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
New Wonderful Information!

1. Have they done any health testing to prove that the sire and dam have no problems? Stuff like OFA, holtering, and dna testing for vWD? Ask to see the paperwork.

And the AKC doesn't care what the heck body parts are or aren't attached. The dog can have two heads, six legs, three tails, and no hair, but as long as it is purebred, and both parents were registered, you can register it.
Rosemary, thank you for your advice.
And I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for my attitude yesterday. I was a bit hot headed b/c I felt like I was being attacked. Anyways, now some NEW INFORMATION!

Turns out I was completely confused between what was in the article that I read, and what the breeder told me, and I have lots of new, positive, and re-assuring info!

1. Turns out the puppies in this litter actually ARE CONFIRMED purebreds, and both parents are AKC purebreds. The reason why they are not registered is simply b/c the breeder did not have the money to register the litter. She advised that she can do that for me online at any time, and at that time I could pay for the puppy's registration papers. Not registering them had NOTHING to do with the fact that their dews, tails, and ears were not done, as I previously thought was the case. Nutshell: The puppy can be registered before I buy him.

2. The reason why she did not register the litter, is because her father was recently diagnosed with cancer, and she is having to pay for all his treatments. So, she needed to sell her litter of 6 puppies quickly, leaving the registration and paperwork up to the buyers. She was very concerned that she would not have the time, money, and energy to properly care for the pups for more than 8 weeks, so she sought to get them into good homes as quickly as possible at an affordable price. But again, they are full purebreds, and she advised she has ALL the paperwork to prove their full lineage.

3. She also did advise that she has the mother and father regularly tested twice a year for heart, hips, and disease issues. DNA testing has not been done that I know of, I didn't know you could even do that. But anywho, as stated before, she has had no health issues in the mother or father's bloodline, and DOES have the paperwork from the Father's Father that shows he had no health issues either.

Again, I thank you all for your advice. And I hope all this new info puts some of your minds at ease. It is still not confirmed that we will be getting this puppy this weekend. We still need to go see him, play with him, and meet the parents, and check on their temperaments and living environments.
 

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3. She also did advise that she has the mother and father regularly tested twice a year for heart, hips, and disease issues. DNA testing has not been done that I know of, I didn't know you could even do that. But anywho, as stated before, she has had no health issues in the mother or father's bloodline, and DOES have the paperwork from the Father's Father that shows he had no health issues either.
I won't comment on the rest of your post, but on this aspect I will. The testing we speak of is done often by specialists. There are registries that you as a potential buyer can check to make sure they were done. Parents of a litter should have a number of documented tests. You as a buyer are entitled to proof of those specific tests. It is way different than the vet check ups that you are talking about.

Tests that you should be asking for:

Cardio - it is the number one killer in this breed. If you look at the rainbow bridge section of this forum it is littered with deaths due to cardio disease. Some lived a good long life, but others died young. At 3, 4 and 5 years old. Evidence of cardio screening can come in the documented results of an echocardiogram, a Holter monitor test and a PDK4 genetic marker test. If someone does ANY of these tests, there is a paper trail that you as a buyer should be privy to.

Hips - while not prevalent in the breed, deserves checking. When someone specifically tests hips, a hip registry is used. OFA, DV or PenHip are all hip places to check.

vWD - there is a GREAT genetic test for this bleeding disease. Both parents status should be known prior to breeding. Therefore, you as a buyer can know the status choices of your puppy. This is a genetic test that when done will garnish a document that a breeder can show to the buyer. FYI when it comes to surgery with a Doberman, status should be known. If you have a clinical bleeder, lots of extra care (and money) needs to be taken to be sure your pet doesn't bleed out.

CERF eye diseases - CERF is the registry and will have a document.

All these tests should be done on breeding animals. There are others as well. You as a buyer have a right to know the results of these tests. If a breeder says a blanket statement of, "I don't have problems in my line.", it is usually because they haven't done the tests.

If a breeder says there is no cardio in their line, they are flat out lying.

So, perhaps you should ask this breeder for the documents of these tests. Or you should check yourself and verify some of them.

You can go to OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) and type in the registered name of the parents. If some of these have been done, they will be listed.
 

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JagersDaddy
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
So, perhaps you should ask this breeder for the documents of these tests. Or you should check yourself and verify some of them.

You can go to OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) and type in the registered name of the parents. If some of these have been done, they will be listed.
Thank you for the advice, I will ask the breeder about those things. But I have one question for clarification. Are you saying I should ask these questions in relation to the parents? Or to the puppy? Because if any of those tests were ran, I would assume they would have been ran in the past, correct? Not recently?

Plus, as I mentioned before, her financial situation might limit her being able to afford such tests recently. But also mentioned before, this mother has had no bloodline issues in over 10 yrs, and i highly doubt this woman would continue to breed if the mother started showing signs of any issues. Am i correct? That would just be horribly immoral, and would turn me off immediately.

But the only other question is this: What if I meet the puppy, and we love it, and love the parents temperaments? Are you saying that we should just NOT get the puppy simply because all these extensive and horribly expensive tests have not been ran? That puppy deserves a good home, and she cannot afford to continue taking care of it, as she is already taking care of mommy and daddy. advice?
 

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sufferin succotash
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